OSAS The Truth

[FreeGrace]

The unfruitful branch is lifted up or pulled up out of the ground for the purpose of casting it into the fire.


JLB

Discarded as being unuseful for the Lord. It has nothing to do with loss of salvation.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I am not a theologian, but the verses you quoted do not say that a saved person can lose their salvation.
You are reading that into them.

Jesus is talking to the disciples about what has just happened with Judas Iscariot and others like him. Judas had attached himself to Jesus, but did not produce fruit and did not abide in Christ. He was a disciple only outwardly and the fact that he was not a disciple inwardly was shown by his lack of fruit-bearing. He did not abide or remain in Christ. He turned away from Christ.

 

[Jesse]

First of all, John 15:2 is a very encouraging verse. It has nothing to do with throwing a believer into the LoF forever and ever. We should not be so quick to send a fellow Brother or Sister IN Christ to the LoF.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

"He takes away"
airei~~142~~to raise, take up, lift

The Father lifts(encourages) the unfruitful branch off of the ground(So a second root does not develop), into better light so that the branch has a better chance to produce fruit. It is a well known technique in the vineyard.....One has to force the Judgement of the LoF for a fellow brother or sister in Christ in this verse.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide(remain in fellowship) in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned....This is the Bema seat fire. One has to force the judgement of the LoF for a fellow brother or sister in Christ in this verse.

1 Cor 3:12-15~~12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss;, yet so but he himself will be saved as through fire.

Thank you! Seriously, what you have written makes sense to me and I am going to study this more, in light of this new information.

No one has ever addressed this for me:

If one can lose their salvation, tell me specifically all the ways one can lose it. And at what point is the line in the sand drawn for each offense?

If "not believing anymore" causes us to lose salvation. Is there a grace period for stupidity? Or do we lose it the moment we "Stop believing." What if for just one day we said," I give this up, it all can't be true." And we came to our senses the next day. Did we lose our salvation for that day only and got it back when we came to our senses? Do we have to do something else to get it back? what if we gave it up for 3 or 4 days. Do we lose it at the 3 1/2 day mark because we really crossed the line that time? What if for 2 weeks we stopped believing and then came to our senses? At what point do we lose salvation?

If habitual sin can make us lose salvation, How habitual does it need to be? Where is the dividing line? At what point does God say,"Thats enough, you lost your salvation!" Do we have a day to get it cleaned up,a week, a month, a year, 10 years? At what point do we lose salvation?

Lying~~ how habitual does it need to be? once every day? once every month? Once a year? At what specific point will salvation be lost?

I would love to see a sincere(but sincerely wrong) legalist write a book on," How to stay saved." It would be no less than 10,000 pages long and be in revision daily. It would have no end.

If we were free to choose Christ, why is it we are not free to walk away? Did our free will disappear the moment we believed?

Men like darkness more than light and there WILL be people who fall away and not return, Jesus speaks of the Great Apostasy, and how this has to happen. People will fall away (and it's not those who were not really believers). You can not fall away from something if you don't belong. In the end men's hearts will grow cold, some will no longer love the Lord.

It's not about habitual sin, it's about our hearts growing cold and not loving the Lord any longer. There are people who will fall into habitual sin, however, but I think that lifestyle will cause them to turn away from God.

 

[smaller]

I said this:
"Please explain exactly how OSAS "utterly fails"? I have no idea. Truth does not fail. It's the non-OSAS view that fails, given even the verses that they think support their view."

I don't see where this in any way explains how OSAS utterly fails. Please explain how it does.

Already delineated. OSAS will justify zero believers sin actions OR the source of same. That is where OSAS fails.

Paul was saved. The messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh was assuredly not. Did Paul toss a doctrinal blanket called OSAS over the entirety of himself? Never!

Neither position is supposed to justify evil. btw, evil cannot "justified".

OSAS obviously then does not apply to the evil present with any of us and CAN NOT. There is a source to look at for this matter and OSAS does NOT extend to that source and that source is INTERNAL.

So OSAS believers may think their security doctrinal blanket is on the entirety of their persons. It assuredly is not.

I don't think either position addresses the problem accurately as Paul did. And you are also correct in that neither position is meant to justify the evil that we all factually have.

Therefore the issue with both camps resides there, on the subject of how to address said evil that we ALL still have.

I think non-OSAS is extremely faulty. OSAS not as much. But both positions seek to cover up their personal evil problems with false theological constructs that really aren't required at all.

It is present, but let's not think it can be, or should be justified.

If evil was present with Paul it is present with all of us. That much is certain. No evil can be justified under Grace. No evil present can be legal either. And even though a believer can be or more accurately IS forgiven, that did not make the fact of EVIL'S presence go away, even on a temporary basis. This is where the non-OSAS camp fails entirely, thinking their 'right actions' or 'right thinking' of whatever sort is what keeps them in good eternal standings. That was never the case to begin with.

Maybe you don't fully understand what to be "justified" really means?

And even you would not seem foolish enough to justify the evil within any person and YES we all have this issue. So let's not get that justification blanket stretched out where it doesn't belong.

Evil can be explained.

Explanations are one thing. Theological constructs used to justify any man's evil, let it off the hook, overlook it, forgive it, put in under Grace, excuse it, whatever, are another matter entirely.

The OSAS blanket covering upon the WHOLE BELIEVER is not up to the task.

And the non-OSAS camp is no better.

 

[Jesse]

Jesus is talking to the disciples about what has just happened with Judas Iscariot and others like him. Judas had attached himself to Jesus, but did not produce fruit and did not abide in Christ. He was a disciple only outwardly and the fact that he was not a disciple inwardly was shown by his lack of fruit-bearing. He did not abide or remain in Christ. He turned away from Christ.

He had still attached Himself though, it was the actions of Judas that caused his falling away, I see this as having nothing to do with God throwing Judas into the fire, Judas did that to himself.

We know what will happen if we are not right with God, it is our choice to remain there.

 

[jonahmano]

Oh, yes, it is about your worry that someone will 'get away' with something. The only way eternity security could "weaken" the church is by those poorly taught pastors and other believers who are ignorant of the blessings of reward for obedience and severe discipline for disobedience. These 2 subjects are rarely taught today. That is what weakens the body.

Every believer who is OSAS is disciplined so that his Spirit is saved at the end. What a joke? If that is so then there is no testing of faith. If what you said was true then Paul shouldn't have toiled so much to bring those great epistles for your spiritual growth.

Because that's how one is saved. And your view that one keeps saved by lifestyle is not found in Scripture.[/QUOTE

Read the book of Acts and you will find out the lifestyle of the true believers of Christ and not just believe and go on your way. Even the OSAS doctrine proclaim that even believers who commit suicide will end up in heaven What a terrible situation. Atleast leave those kind of situations to God. Let him be the judge.

Are you aware that false doctrine is worse and weakens the body more?

Yeah your true OSAS doctrine to just believe and go on your own is the weapon of Satan to destroy the strength of the church. We need to be offensive and not on defensive. God is searching for a people who are zealous, guided by the Holy Spirit every moment of their lives and not on doctrines set up by human intellectuals.

Here's the fallacy of your opinion. No one that I know ever teaches such rot. The Bible is clear how much it does matter how one lives. But it's NOT for salvation, or to maintain salvation. That would be works, whether or not you understand that. It matters because of rewards and discipline. That's the issue.

You are saved by grace through faith not of works means it's about good works read ephesians 2:10. Your aren't saved for your good works but your bad works will never allow you to step into heaven.

What one must DO to be saved is exactly what Paul told the jailer to DO: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Period.

If that was so then bible should have been stopped there. Why does Paul says in the book of Ephesians do this, do that, be this way be that way. A simple man can understand that it's the first step to your salvation that is to believe and the next step is to live a life guided by the Holy Spirit and not just believing and sleep with your mother-in-law or the the other woman all the days of your life and still think that you are OSAS.

I've yet to see any counter argument by him. What post? They seem to fly by rather quickly here.

He countered you a great number of times but you just brush him aside.

 

[jonahmano]

I thought you were of the non-OSAS camp. ??

I'm of the camp of Jesus Christ any doubts???

 

[smaller]

Jesus is talking to the disciples about what has just happened with Judas Iscariot and others like him. Judas had attached himself to Jesus, but did not produce fruit and did not abide in Christ. He was a disciple only outwardly and the fact that he was not a disciple inwardly was shown by his lack of fruit-bearing. He did not abide or remain in Christ. He turned away from Christ.

Let's look at what happened really happend WITHIN Judas:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Did this really happen to Judas? I'd say so. In a very BIG way, right here:

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

It is quite pointless to miss Satan in the equations of Judas, particularly so after entry. Jesus was talking to Satan in Judas in vs. 2.

Jesus also spoke to SATAN in Peter.

Both of these men, Judas and Peter, were showing THE DIVINE PRINCIPLE that Jesus showed us in Mark 4:15

It is pointless in these sights to see just Judas or just Peter when that obviously was not the case.

One example was Peter's denial of the Lord. That is just one of many steps of SLAVESHIP to Satan.

In the more extreme case, Judas, it was betrayal and assisting the murder of Jesus.

I will stand by the fact that both men were simply executing part of Gods Divine Plan for Jesus in any case, even in Satan's assistance and entry into them.

How? Because it is Satan himself who will ultimately be judged for the denial of Jesus by Peter and the betrayal of Jesus by Judas. In that way both men served God.

 

[JLB]

Discarded as being unuseful for the Lord. It has nothing to do with loss of salvation.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[smaller]

A believer has an irrevocable call from God in Christ.

Satan has a likewise irrevocable call to resist the Word, also from God in Christ.

This spiritual battle is laid before everyone who has the first call.

 

[gr8grace3]

Thank you! Seriously, what you have written makes sense to me and I am going to study this more, in light of this new information.


If we were free to choose Christ, why is it we are not free to walk away? Did our free will disappear the moment we believed?

Men like darkness more than light and there WILL be people who fall away and not return, Jesus speaks of the Great Apostasy, and how this has to happen. People will fall away (and it's not those who were not really believers). You can not fall away from something if you don't belong. In the end men's hearts will grow cold, some will no longer love the Lord.

It's not about habitual sin, it's about our hearts growing cold and not loving the Lord any longer. There are people who will fall into habitual sin, however, but I think that lifestyle will cause them to turn away from God.

We are free to walk away, that is mans character and nature. He does NOT walk away, that is His character and nature.

 

[JLB]

I asked you to take my response to your post like you asked me to do with yours, but this is what you posted instead:

My post was extremely clear. Why are you continuing to ask what I've already answered??

The term "fall away" refers to believing, but you have morphed that into falling away from being saved.

And such a view directly contradicts Rom 11:29, which says that God's gifts (imputed righteousness-5:15,17 and eternal life-6:23) and calling are IRREVOCABLE. It appears you don't believe what Paul said about God's gifts and calling. For you, they can be revoked.

Why do you believe what is contrary to truth?

Remember you agreed to walk through this step by step.

Please just answer the question.

Great. So we agree that believe = Saved.

So in the next verse where Jesus says -

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


... who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.



JLB says - Believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.= saved for a while but departed from the element that saved [faith]. The person no longer has faith...


Freegrace says - Believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.= saved with no change from original salvation


True or False?


JLB

 

[Jesse]

We are free to walk away, that is mans character and nature. He does NOT walk away, that is His character and nature.

Yes, God is not the one who would be walking away, we are able to do that all by ourselves.

 

[JLB]

Yes, God is not the one who would be walking away, we are able to do that all by ourselves.

You got to the root of that doctrine very quickly!

Good Point!

If God will make everyone choose Salvation, then why would Jesus need to go to the cross.

Man has a freewill to choose.

Before or after, Believing in Christ for salvation.

You just busted the myth of OSAS!




JLB

 

[jonahmano]

This bothers me, I don't think that way or do I do that in the life of unbelievers or believers as I have been accused of in another thread, as I clearly stated in #33 as how we are born again, I'll give you a personal example of how I talk with believers that I meet, after reading #33 please tell me what verse the Holy Spirit used for your new birth (born again) and when was it, it what day, month and year, I'll go first, I was born again with this verse Is 40: 6-8 on/at a Wednesday night Bible Study at 9:00 in July of '86, now you answer that question and we can talk more, born again brother to born again brother.

In His Love

I have been born again in 2004 and it was not just on a certain day everything changed. It took sometime to grasp the love of Christ. The word of God which inspired me was Revelation 7:9

I'm sorry if you are bothered but why do you want to consider yourself on OSAS side. I don't have any issues with OSAS except they differ in one place and that is

1. Your prayers can't save you so praying to God is a choice (This will weaken the body of Christ because we know that only by prayer we can fight with Satan - Read Daniel)

2. Your bible reading can't save you so bible reading is also a choice even if you don't read the bible still you will make it to heaven (Jesus is the word then how can any man without having a desire of knowing Jesus Christ can expect to become His child? A person not having bible or can't read due to mental issues that's an exception)

3. Your worship can't save you so worshipping God is a choice (That's terrible we are made to worship and when God has restored our relationship with him then the only thing we have do is to worship God)

4. Your fellowship can't save you. (I do believe that fellowship must not be an idol for us but Ephesians 2 says in whom ye are also builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit)

Please can you counter me on these points?

 

[gr8grace3]

Yes, God is not the one who would be walking away, we are able to do that all by ourselves.

And when we do it. This is His character and nature....

New American Standard Bible
"The LORD is the one who goes ahead of you; He will be with you. He will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed."

 

[jonahmano]

A believer has an irrevocable call from God in Christ.

Satan has a likewise irrevocable call to resist the Word, also from God in Christ.

This spiritual battle is laid before everyone who has the first call.

Need a reply from you for the post
#444

 

[jonahmano]

Jesus is talking to the disciples about what has just happened with Judas Iscariot and others like him. Judas had attached himself to Jesus, but did not produce fruit and did not abide in Christ. He was a disciple only outwardly and the fact that he was not a disciple inwardly was shown by his lack of fruit-bearing. He did not abide or remain in Christ. He turned away from Christ.

How do you know if a believer is saved or not?

 

[Chopper]

Having ones name in the Book of Life means that individual is saved. They have eternal Life.

If their name is missing from the Book of Life, that means the individual is not saved. They do not have eternal Life.

If a name is blotted from the Book of Life, that means an individual was at one time saved but now they are not.

Do you agree with this?
.

"Having ones name in the Book of Life means that individual is saved" We have to be careful when we label a person as "saved". The person has made a profession. Gary, in reality the proof of biblical Christianity will not be disclosed until the judgment, in reality! Now, we see ourselves as saved because we have professed or confessed what we think is necessary for Salvation. Only God knows whether a person is genuine or not.

So, lets say that having ones name in the Book of Life simply means that this person has believed on the Son of God for his Salvation. His name will either stay there or be blotted out which depends on how he lives his "narrow road" life style. If this person obeys Jesus' Commands all his life, he will have eternal life.

 

[Jesse]

And when we do it. This is His character and nature....

New American Standard Bible
"The LORD is the one who goes ahead of you; He will be with you. He will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed."

Yes HE IS FAITHFUL, but WE can fail, we can walk away.

Do you see this has nothing to do with God? It is US who walk away....it is US failing, US forsaking....

It's not really about God, it's our choice.