OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?

[FreeGrace]

I believe scripture teaches "if you stop turning from sin---you lose your salvation"

Where would that be found, please?

I've found no verses that say anything about losing salvation. I'd be happy to entertain any verse that says that.

 

[Chopper]

I agree.
I also might add as you hinted to above.....if a believer..."back slides" (call it what you want)...that believer won't lose salvation but instead will lose rewards.
1 Cor 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire

Absolutely my friend. All the while he/she back slides, they are not earning any rewards. When I know someone strays from being active in their faith, I call on the "Hound of Heaven" (the Holy Spirit) to go get them and bring them back. With one lady, it's been several years now, but I keep on praying that someday the Hound of Heaven will catch up with her.

 

[Cygnus]

Absolutely my friend. All the while he/she back slides, they are not earning any rewards. When I know someone strays from being active in their faith, I call on the "Hound of Heaven" (the Holy Spirit) to go get them and bring them back. With one lady, it's been several years now, but I keep on praying that someday the Hound of Heaven will catch up with her.

lets hope she comes back.

All though some people have written her off as lost.

 

[Nathan]

John 10:28 is a complete message: "I give them (My sheep) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Its a part of a complete message. The complete message being the Gospel. The Gospel being the word of God.

I've already explained why I take on your points one at a time. I just wish other posters would address my points individually.

I will try to do so in the future if that is what you like then.

As it is, my points are generally not even addressed, and either just more questions are asked, or general comments (talking points) are made.

Your points are addressed, but you do not like the addressing of them. You only counter the addressing with the same thing the post was addressing......a very confusing circle. Questions help break this circle, and bring it back to a discussion.

Ok then. So, what's the difference between water flowing out of a hose and water flowing from a spring??

Literally, the amount. Figuratively, not much because they are both sources of water. God used the analogy of a spring, so I figured its best to stick with that.

There are no verses about receiving eternal life in increments or steadily, as though we need a steady flow.

Only God is eternal. So, unless a person thinks that they are eternal - like God - then they must accept the fact that He gives them life. Since we are not eternal, and He says that He will give us eternal life, then it means He must keep giving us life. If He did not, then it would not be eternal.

Col 3:4
When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Eternal life is given WHEN one believes.

Yes, Jesus(who is eternal life) lives in us through faith by the Spirit.

Jhn 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Gal 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

We have all we need to live with God in eternity. And after we die physically, we will experience eternity fully.

I believe this also. Faith is all we need, nothing more - but without it we have nothing. Faith is not a 'one time' thought or belief, it is a life of hearing and following Christ.

Jhn 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

[chessman]

when we take the words of another out of their context, trying to build arguments and discussions on single sentences, we loose what the person is trying to say.

1Ti 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Do you realize that you just said you should not build arguments on single sentences then, in the very next post, posted only a partial sentence of Paul's to 'build' your 'argument'?

What does Paul say (in the rest of the sentence/context) is the lie of the deceitful spirits?

1Tim 4:1-5 ESV Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.​

 

[billybalke]

Where would that be found, please?

I've found no verses that say anything about losing salvation. I'd be happy to entertain any verse that says that.

Where would that be found, please?

I've found no verses that say anything about losing salvation. I'd be happy to entertain any verse that says that.

If Cygnus doesn't accept the invitation perhaps you will.

 

[Nathan]

Do you realize that you just said you should not build arguments on single sentences then, in the very next post, posted only a partial sentence of Paul's to 'build' your 'argument'?

What does Paul say (in the rest of the sentence/context) is the lie of the deceitful spirits?

1Tim 4:1-5 ESV Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.​

What I quoted does not detract from the rest of the passage. We should not build arguments on single sentences, that then contradict the rest of the passage around them. I was stating that the Spirit leaves no room for us to know that people who have been set free from sin will again return to the bondage of it. That does not contradict the rest of the passage.

 

[markathome]

I said this:
"What has NOT been shown from Scripture is that one who has been sealed IN HIM can become unsealed. Why is that?"

Because if shown you won't believe it?

Please provide the verse/text that teaches that a sealed believer can be unsealed then.

Revelation Chapter 13

Huh? How does the seal of Rev 13 relate in any way to Eph 1:13?? The seal in Rev 13 is God's mark on specifically 144,000 Jews.

Simple aka Seal, Mark, 666, 777, XPc
Again the way out of this equation is say there's a PreTrib Rapture so no Believers would be on the earth at the time.
Are you saying a person can accept the Mark/Seal from Revelation 13:18 & remain Saved?

So, does this mean we just accept that verses don't agree and that Scripture is internally contradictory??

If the scripture doesn't match a person's Theology then the person should correct their Theology?

 

[Chopper]

lets hope she comes back.

All though some people have written her off as lost.

Yes, you're probably right. Her husband is a close friend of mine and a very good member of CF.net. For my love for him, I'll not give up on her because at one time, she was biblically saved and Spirit filled. He also believes that she will come back to Jesus.

 

[Chopper]

I believe scripture teaches "if you stop turning from sin---you lose your salvation"

If you stop turning from sin, and jump back into it, you weren't saved to begin with. The parable of the seeds sown is a good example. Three were not biblically, only one.

 

[Chopper]

Heb 3
Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God’s house. For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) Now Moses was faithful in all God’s house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.

Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,
where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years.
Therefore I was provoked with that generation,
and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart;
they have not known my ways.’
As I swore in my wrath,
‘They shall not enter my rest.’”

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.

The issue is that we keep hearing of people who "were not really saved", yet we find this to be just a way of describing something people have a hard time understanding. We do not find that all people who do not continue in the faith were "not saved" to begin with.

However, when we learn from God, using His words to us as an example, we see that people who leave Christ - who fall away - who turn from God and His grace - are indeed people who were "saved", they just chose not to believe in that or not continue to believe in it.

The Exodus example is written in plain words to describe this situation. God saved the entire nation of people. Delivered them from bondage. They were as saved as they ever could be. Free from slavery. Yet some believed, some didn't, and some chose not to believe later on after believing at one point in time.

God gives us the choice to follow or not. When we stand before Him, there will be no excuses of "so and so" made me do this, or "I did this, so you have to do this". God is going to judge us based on one thing - faith in His Son. Those who have faith in His Son will be in the kingdom, those without faith in His Son will not be in the kingdom. It matters not what you did or did not do at one point in time.

People who have faith in His Son are known by their fruit. Very simple. Very straight forward.

What you have presented Nathan is the Nation of Israel under a completely different Covenant than the New Covenant. Theirs was a work Salvation, absent from the Christ.

 

[JLB]

Where would that be found, please?

I've found no verses that say anything about losing salvation. I'd be happy to entertain any verse that says that.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

• that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Plain as day.

Those Christian's who practice these sinful works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If we do not inherit the kingdom of God, then where will we end up?

Jesus said it this way:

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life.

JLB

 

[Chopper]

JLB my old favored friend. I believe that you and I believe in the security of the Believer in Christ Jesus, and as such will never loose what God the Father guarantees thru the sealing of the Holy Spirit and Galatians 2:20....

Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

The verse that you quoted in referring to a lost individual who lives by the flesh and not by faith in Christ Jesus. I don't think that you're a fan of loosing one's Salvation, so don't even try.

Love You
Chopper

 

[Nathan]

What you have presented Nathan is the Nation of Israel under a completely different Covenant than the New Covenant. Theirs was a work Salvation, absent from the Christ.

Actually, it's always been through faith. Belief in God based on what He tells us/them. Hebrews is written for believers in Christ.

I don't believe righteousness before God ever came from works.

Romans 3:20 (ESV)
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

It's always been faith, before Christ looking forward to salvation, after Christ looking back on it. In all times looking to God who forgives.

 

[Mike]

If you stop turning from sin, and jump back into it, you weren't saved to begin with.

Chopper, my friend, I'm concerned about this statement, so I'm kindly asking for clarification. What believer escapes the flesh to the point that they can return to sin? To me, that seems to imply that they were at one point free from sin.

I can't help but turn to Romans 7:15-20 and take these verses that Paul had never been saved. I know with certainty that you're not saying that, so I'm asking for more from you.

The hope in me is the confidence that He will finish the good work He started in me. If backsliding and sinning indicates that I was never saved, what hope can I have?

I do believe people can lose their salvation when they come to reject Christ and receive it anew if they return to Him, but rejecting Him is far different from sinning.

Thanks, Chop!

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"As it is, my points are generally not even addressed, and either just more questions are asked, or general comments (talking points) are made."

Your points are addressed, but you do not like the addressing of them.

What I said is correct. And I explained HOW my post are generally answered:
more questions
general comments (usually just more talking points)
NO specific comments about my points

Jhn 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The point that Jesus made is that those He gives eternal life to will never perish.

Now, that said, and in line with your beliefs, can one who has been given eternal life but has removed themselves from union with Christ, perish? yes or no.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this;
"I've found no verses that say anything about losing salvation. I'd be happy to entertain any verse that says that."

If Cygnus doesn't accept the invitation perhaps you will.

I've always provided an explanation of any verses used for "losss of salvation".

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"What has NOT been shown from Scripture is that one who has been sealed IN HIM can become unsealed. Why is that?"

Because if shown you won't believe it?

No. Because there ARE NONE that teach a sealed believer can become unsealed, or removed from union with Christ.

If the scripture doesn't match a person's Theology then the person should correct their Theology?

This shouldn't be a question. It should be the standard for every believer. So when verses are provided that refute one's particular theological bent, then need to correct or even abandon their theology.

For example, those who are convinced that one can lose their salvation have been shown what Jesus said in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So, the fact is that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. That obviously means that once saved, and given eternal life, that person SHALL NEVER PERISH.

This single verse refutes the idea that salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I've found no verses that say anything about losing salvation. I'd be happy to entertain any verse that says that."

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

I'm always happy to explain what passages mean. This passage is one of 3 parallel passages, all meaning the same thing. 1 Cor 6 and Eph 5 have the same list of sins. In this and 1 Cor 6, the phrase is the same: "will not inherit the kingdom". In Eph 5, the phrase is slightly different: "will have no inheritance IN the kingdom".

So, the point is that those believers who practice the things listed in each passage will have no inheritance IN the kingdom.

iow, they WILL be IN the kingdom, but simply have NO inheritance IN the kingdom.

What isn't being taught in any of the 3 passages is that believers who practice the things listed will NOT ENTER the kingdom, which seems to be the way some understand it.

So my statement about no verses teaching loss of salvation stands.

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"As it is, my points are generally not even addressed, and either just more questions are asked, or general comments (talking points) are made."

What I said is correct. And I explained HOW my post are generally answered:
more questions
general comments (usually just more talking points)
NO specific comments about my points


The point that Jesus made is that those He gives eternal life to will never perish.

Now, that said, and in line with your beliefs, can one who has been given eternal life but has removed themselves from union with Christ, perish? yes or no.

Yes, the one who is not in union with Christ will spend eternity apart from Him.

You will never find one passage that states eternal life is something you possess without being in union with Christ.

1 John 5:12 (ESV) 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

When a person leaves Christ, they leave the only eternal life there is.