Our salvation is in Mary

[LanaPodesta]

What do you mean by “the authority of the Church”?

The Church has the authority to define and teach doctrine.

 

[Free]

The Church has the authority to define and teach doctrine.

You don’t seem to understand. By “the Church” is meant the whole body of Christ, which contains numerous branches, a few of which are large and many of which are small. There is no single authority except Christ himself as the head.

 

[LanaPodesta]

By “the Church” is meant the whole body of Christ, which contains numerous branches, a few of which are large and many of which are small

Who says?

 

[Free]

Who says?

The apostle Paul.

 

[LanaPodesta]

The apostle Paul.

Paul himself submits to the authority of the Church at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where doctrinal disputes are resolved collectively by the Apostles and elders, demonstrating that the Church operates as a visible, unified body, not an abstract, fragmented concept.

 

[Free]

Paul himself submits to the authority of the Church at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15), where doctrinal disputes are resolved collectively by the Apostles and elders, demonstrating that the Church operates as a visible, unified body, not an abstract, fragmented concept.

Back then when the Church was small and in that particular case where they were dealing with a brand new issue. And their final decision was based on Scripture.

The Church is fragmented and always has been. Just read Acts 15 and see that it was about disagreement in how the Torah applies to Gentile believers. The fact of the matter is, not everyone who goes to church or is a member of a church is actually a true believer. Every single church is a mix of believers and unbelievers, most of whom falsely think they are actual believers.

The Church is made up of all those who are true believers. Hence, it is fragmented.

 

[LanaPodesta]

Back then when the Church was small and in that particular case where they were dealing with a brand new issue. And their final decision was based on Scripture.

The Church is fragmented and always has been. Just read Acts 15 and see that it was about disagreement in how the Torah applies to Gentile believers. The fact of the matter is, not everyone who goes to church or is a member of a church is actually a true believer. Every single church is a mix of believers and unbelievers, most of whom falsely think they are actual believers.

The Church is made up of all those who are true believers. Hence, it is fragmented.

If you're basing your argument on Paul's actions at the Council of Jerusalem, you're appealing to an event where the visible Church, not Scripture alone, exercised authority to resolve doctrinal disputes, which undermines your claim that the Church is fragmented and defined solely by "true believers" rather than by its visible, apostolic structure.

 

[Free]

If you're basing your argument on Paul's actions at the Council of Jerusalem, you're appealing to an event where the visible Church, not Scripture alone, exercised authority to resolve doctrinal disputes, which undermines your claim that the Church is fragmented and defined solely by "true believers" rather than by its visible, apostolic structure.

This is a non-sequitur. It doesn't follow that what we see in Acts 15 means the Church isn't fragmented now. As I stated, it was already fragmenting back then, which was the whole point of the meeting in Acts 15. Also, as I stated, the decision there was based on Scripture alone, on how it was to be applied to Gentile believers.

Do you deny that the root meaning of "church" is ekklesia, which means "an assembly" or "called-out ones"? Where is "visible, apostolic structure" in that meaning? Do you believe that Christ's body is made up of believers, that it is the Church (1 Cor. 12:12-27; Eph. 1:22-23; 4:15-16; 5:23; Col. 1:18, 24)?

So, Christ's body is made up of individual believers, not a specific branch of Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Protestant, etc.) or denomination (any further delineations within any of those larger branches). As I stated, every individual church is going to have a mix of believers and unbelievers, but it is believers as a whole from every individual church within every branch that make up the body of Christ, which is the true Church. That is the teaching of Scripture.

 

[LanaPodesta]

This is a non-sequitur. It doesn't follow that what we see in Acts 15 means the Church isn't fragmented now. As I stated, it was already fragmenting back then, which was the whole point of the meeting in Acts 15. Also, as I stated, the decision there was based on Scripture alone, on how it was to be applied to Gentile believers.

Do you deny that the root meaning of "church" is ekklesia, which means "an assembly" or "called-out ones"? Where is "visible, apostolic structure" in that meaning? Do you believe that Christ's body is made up of believers, that it is the Church (1 Cor. 12:12-27; Eph. 1:22-23; 4:15-16; 5:23; Col. 1:18, 24)?

So, Christ's body is made up of individual believers, not a specific branch of Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Protestant, etc.) or denomination (any further delineations within any of those larger branches). As I stated, every individual church is going to have a mix of believers and unbelievers, but it is believers as a whole from every individual church within every branch that make up the body of Christ, which is the true Church. That is the teaching of Scripture.

You're appealing to Paul's actions in Acts 15—outside of Scripture—to validate Scripture alone, which is self-contradictory, and you haven’t shown that the Church was "fragmenting," as it was visibly represented by its leaders (later Bishops). The meaning of *ekklesia* as "assembly" doesn’t refute the Orthodox claim of a Church that is both invisible (made up of all true believers) and visible (a unified, apostolic body). If Scripture alone is the authority, how do you determine what Scripture teaches without the Church that canonized and interprets it?

 

[JLB]

You're right. Why should I believe what you say?

The teaching of Jesus Christ is found in scripture.

Beware of those leading you to read their “book” because they claim some special authority.

True disciples will lead you to Christ and His teachings.

 

[JLB]

Where's the idolatry?

Bowing down to statues of Mary or Jesus or saints.

 

[Free]

You're appealing to Paul's actions in Acts 15—outside of Scripture—to validate Scripture alone, which is self-contradictory,

Not at all, as things have to start somewhere. The whole point of the meeting with the council was this:

Act 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
...
Act 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
...
Act 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? (ESV)

Again, this was a brand new development in the life of the Church. A decision had to be made as there was no precedent. What the apostles taught became Scripture when those things were written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. What was written down was passed around from church to church. As Scripture, even the apostles were to be held to it, even by lay persons, as I have previously shown.

and you haven’t shown that the Church was "fragmenting," as it was visibly represented by its leaders (later Bishops).

So, the disagreement above isn't fragmenting? The Church certainly wasn't fragmented the way it is now, but that is because of the serious issues that entered the Church, due in large part to the politicization of Christianity and the so-called apostolic tradition, both of which caused the Church to veer from Scripture in several respects.

The meaning of *ekklesia* as "assembly" doesn’t refute the Orthodox claim of a Church that is both invisible (made up of all true believers) and visible (a unified, apostolic body).

No, but my point here was that that is what "the Church" generally refers to--the body of Christ, the invisible Church, as the Bible states.

If Scripture alone is the authority, how do you determine what Scripture teaches without the Church that canonized and interprets it?

You're not reading what I'm writing. I have not once stated that "Scripture alone is the authority." In fact, I made it clear that it isn't:

Sola scriptura doesn't mean Scripture alone is our authority, as is commonly believed, but rather that Scripture is the ultimate and only infallible authority.

Which I stated HERE.

 

[LanaPodesta]

Bowing down to statues of Mary or Jesus or saints.

I don't personally do that. Still don't see how it's idolatry.

 

[LanaPodesta]

Not at all, as things have to start somewhere. The whole point of the meeting with the council was this:

Act 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
...
Act 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
...
Act 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? (ESV)

Again, this was a brand new development in the life of the Church. A decision had to be made as there was no precedent. What the apostles taught became Scripture when those things were written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. What was written down was passed around from church to church. As Scripture, even the apostles were to be held to it, even by lay persons, as I have previously shown.


So, the disagreement above isn't fragmenting? The Church certainly wasn't fragmented the way it is now, but that is because of the serious issues that entered the Church, due in large part to the politicization of Christianity and the so-called apostolic tradition, both of which caused the Church to veer from Scripture in several respects.


No, but my point here was that that is what "the Church" generally refers to--the body of Christ, the invisible Church, as the Bible states.


You're not reading what I'm writing. I have not once stated that "Scripture alone is the authority." In fact, I made it clear that it isn't:

Sola scriptura doesn't mean Scripture alone is our authority, as is commonly believed, but rather that Scripture is the ultimate and only infallible authority.

Which I stated HERE.

• On Acts 15 and the Role of the Church's Authority:
  You acknowledge that Acts 15 involved an authoritative decision on a new issue, but this decision wasn’t based on sola scriptura as you define it. The apostles did not appeal to written Scripture as the ultimate authority but discerned God’s will through debate, Peter's testimony, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This demonstrates the Church's visible and authoritative role, not reliance on Scripture alone.
• Fragmentation of the Church:
  Disagreement is not fragmentation. Acts 15 showcases the Church's ability to resolve disputes through unity and authority, which contradicts your claim that it was “fragmenting” in the Protestant sense. The council is evidence of a visible, cohesive body addressing theological challenges, not an invisible, fragmented group of believers.
• Invisible and Visible Church:
  While you argue for an "invisible Church" composed of all believers, Acts 15 shows that the Church is also visible, with leaders and councils exercising authority to bind decisions on the faithful. This is consistent with Orthodox teaching that the Church is both invisible (spiritual) and visible (hierarchical and sacramental).
• On Sola Scriptura:
  You redefine sola scriptura as “Scripture being the ultimate and only infallible authority,” but Acts 15 contradicts this. The council’s decision was not based solely on Scripture but also on apostolic authority, collective discernment, and the Holy Spirit’s guidance. How does your definition account for this?

 

[LanaPodesta]

The teaching of Jesus Christ is found in scripture.

Beware of those leading you to read their “book” because they claim some special authority.

True disciples will lead you to Christ and His teachings.

And who interprets His teachings...you?

 

[JLB]

And who interprets His teachings...you?

We don’t interpret His teachings. We either do them or not.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

His teachings, like His Gospel, and His commandments are all about love. Loving God and loving His children.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

If we serve other gods or disobey His teaching and commandment to not bow down to images then we are not loving God.

• This is the second commandment-

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me. Exodus 19:4-5


Again, here is the warning from God about idolatry -


But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

 

[LanaPodesta]

We don’t interpret His teachings. We either do them or not.

You're literally interpreting what scripture says about idolatry right now.

 

[JLB]

You're literally interpreting what scripture says about idolatry right now.

Yes.

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.
Exodus 19:4-5

 

[LanaPodesta]

Yes.

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.
Exodus 19:4-5

Pretty sure icons aren't 'carved images'.

 

[JLB]

Pretty sure icons aren't 'carved images'.

Statues of Mary, Statues of saints, statues of Jesus are not to be worshipped or prayed to.