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Our salvation is in Mary

JLB said:
Statues of Mary, Statues of saints, statues of Jesus are not to be worshipped or prayed to.
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Who is worshipping statues?

It's like when pro-gun people are like "Guns don't kill people, people do!" but like no-one is saying guns literally walk around kill people of their own volition?

Likewise, no-one is literally worshipping statues.
 
LanaPodesta said:
  • On Acts 15 and the Role of the Church's Authority:
    You acknowledge that Acts 15 involved an authoritative decision on a new issue, but this decision wasn’t based on sola scriptura as you define it. The apostles did not appeal to written Scripture as the ultimate authority but discerned God’s will through debate, Peter's testimony, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This demonstrates the Church's visible and authoritative role, not reliance on Scripture alone.
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You do realize, as I stated, that the whole discussion was about the applicability of the Law of Moses to Gentile believers, yes? They appealed to Scripture in order to inform their decision, which itself became Scripture. It follows that Scripture is the highest and only infallible authority. It means that doctrines and decisions that are not clearly based on Scripture, have no authority, and could be false or even heretical.

Given that in Acts 15 this was a brand new issue in the early church, obviously a decision had to be made. What it does not mean, however, is that the "Church" and its leaders are infallible in their decisions and that the leaders have the ultimate authority. The Holy Spirit helped the early church leaders make a decision, based on Scripture, and also inspired certain men to write down what God wanted written down for the life of the Church. As such, it is the final and only infallible authority.

LanaPodesta said:
  • Fragmentation of the Church:
    Disagreement is not fragmentation. Acts 15 showcases the Church's ability to resolve disputes through unity and authority, which contradicts your claim that it was “fragmenting” in the Protestant sense. The council is evidence of a visible, cohesive body addressing theological challenges, not an invisible, fragmented group of believers.
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The whole issue in Acts 15 was that there was disagreement about what applied to Gentile believers. We also see throughout the NT that there were disagreements between believers and factions starting. Peter even started fragmenting the early church before Paul corrected him.

LanaPodesta said:
  • Invisible and Visible Church:
    While you argue for an "invisible Church" composed of all believers, Acts 15 shows that the Church is also visible, with leaders and councils exercising authority to bind decisions on the faithful. This is consistent with Orthodox teaching that the Church is both invisible (spiritual) and visible (hierarchical and sacramental).
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Yes, every visible church has leaders to whom the lay people submit; I have implied that already. The issue is that there is no single visible Church; there is only the invisible Church and numerous visible churches which contain both the invisible Church and unbelievers.

LanaPodesta said:
  • On Sola Scriptura:
    You redefine sola scriptura as “Scripture being the ultimate and only infallible authority,” but Acts 15 contradicts this. The council’s decision was not based solely on Scripture but also on apostolic authority, collective discernment, and the Holy Spirit’s guidance. How does your definition account for this?
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I haven't redefined anything. That is literally what sola scriptura means. It is commonly, but mistakenly, thought to mean that Scripture is the only authority. But, as I already pointed out, there were decisions that had to be made in the early church because they were addressing completely new understandings of salvation, particularly as it applied to Gentiles.
 
LanaPodesta said:
No. Jerome could not have been "part of the Roman Catholic Church" (RCC) as we understand it today, because the formal distinctions between the Western (Roman Catholic) and Eastern (Orthodox) Churches did not yet exist during his lifetime. Instead, Jerome was a member of the undivided Christian Church, which encompassed all Christians across the Roman Empire and beyond.

Damasus I (reigned 366–384) is recognized as the Bishop of Rome by both the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, as he lived well before the Great Schism of 1054.
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Ah so according to you there was a different church that existed, one with popes, bishops, priests etc which did not worship Mary, untill the ' schism ' of 1054.
Does that mean then that church council dessission prior to that date are not binding on the rcc?
Are theological statements made before 1054 are not part of the rcc beliefs?
Augustine a contempory of Jerome is he not part of the rcc?
 
LanaPodesta said:
Only if it's 'carved'. It doesn't say anything about any painted images, which is what most icons are.
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Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it. Numbers 33:52-53 KJV


then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, destroy all their engraved stones, destroy all their molded images, and demolish all their high places; you shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land and dwell in it, for I have given you the land to possess.
Numbers 33:52-53 NKJV



JLB
 
JLB said:
Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it. Numbers 33:52-53 KJV


then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, destroy all their engraved stones, destroy all their molded images, and demolish all their high places; you shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land and dwell in it, for I have given you the land to possess.
Numbers 33:52-53 NKJV



JLB
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Is that one of the Commandments?
 
Who Me said:
Ah so according to you there was a different church that existed, one with popes, bishops, priests etc which did not worship Mary, untill the ' schism ' of 1054.
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The undivided Church before 1054 did not have "popes" in the modern sense. The Bishop of Rome held a primacy of honor, but not the universal authority later claimed by the Roman Catholic Church. The Church venerated Mary as Theotokos (Mother of God) but did not worship her—worship (latria) is reserved for God alone. Practices like the Immaculate Conception were later Roman Catholic developments, not part of the early Church.
Who Me said:
Does that mean then that church council dessission prior to that date are not binding on the rcc?
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The decisions of the Ecumenical Councils are binding on the Roman Catholic Church because they come from the shared heritage of the undivided Church.
Who Me said:
Augustine a contempory of Jerome is he not part of the rcc?
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Augustine was a key figure of the undivided Church, not "part" of the Roman Catholic Church, which did not exist in his time. While deeply influential, his writings must be understood in the context of the broader patristic tradition.
 
LanaPodesta said:
Who is worshipping statues?

It's like when pro-gun people are like "Guns don't kill people, people do!" but like no-one is saying guns literally walk around kill people of their own volition?

Likewise, no-one is literally worshipping statues.
Click to expand...


I have photos of people bowing down before a statue of Mary.

I have watch catholic friends bowing down to images of saints and Mary, kissing them.

I tried pasting some here but couldn’t.


I will in a pm to you.
 
LanaPodesta said:
Is that one of the Commandments?
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This most definitely a command, not a suggestion.


then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, destroy all their engraved stones, destroy all their molded images, and demolish all their high places; you shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land and dwell in it, for I have given you the land to possess.
Numbers 33:52-53 NKJV
 
JLB said:
This most definitely a command, not a suggestion.


then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, destroy all their engraved stones, destroy all their molded images, and demolish all their high places; you shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land and dwell in it, for I have given you the land to possess.
Numbers 33:52-53 NKJV
Click to expand...
So it's not one of the Commandments.

1. **Context of Numbers 33**:
This commandment was given specifically to the Israelites as part of God’s covenant with them during their conquest of Canaan. The "engraved stones" and "molded images" referred to in this passage are explicitly tied to the idolatrous worship of false gods by the Canaanites. God instructed the Israelites to destroy these objects to prevent them from falling into idolatry. The context is not about prohibiting all images but about rejecting pagan worship practices.

2. **Icons Are Not Idols**:
In Orthodox theology, icons are not idols. Idolatry involves worshiping created objects as gods or treating them as having divine power. In contrast, icons are windows to heaven, intended to direct the veneration of the faithful to God, the saints, and the divine realities they represent. The honor given to an icon passes to the prototype, as explained by St. Basil the Great: "The honor paid to the image passes to the prototype."

3. **Biblical Basis for Sacred Images**:
While Numbers 33 commands the destruction of idols, the Bible also provides instances where God Himself commands the creation of sacred images for use in worship:
- The Ark of the Covenant was adorned with golden cherubim (Exodus 25:18-22).
- The Tabernacle and later the Temple included intricate carvings and decorations of angels, trees, and flowers (1 Kings 6:29-35).
These images were not idols but served as reminders of heavenly realities and were integral to the worship of the true God.

4. **The Incarnation Changes the Picture**:
The Old Testament prohibition against graven images stemmed, in part, from the incomprehensibility of God, who could not be depicted. However, in the New Testament, God became incarnate in Jesus Christ (John 1:14). As the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), Christ’s Incarnation sanctifies matter and makes it possible to depict Him. Icons of Christ, therefore, affirm the reality of the Incarnation.

5. **Early Church Practice**:
The use of icons in Christian worship can be traced back to the earliest centuries of the Church. Icons were seen as part of the Church’s living tradition, culminating in the Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 AD), which affirmed the veneration of icons against the claims of iconoclasts, declaring:
*"The honor rendered to the icon ascends to the prototype, and whoever venerates an icon venerates the person portrayed in it."*

In summary, Numbers 33 condemns idolatry, not the legitimate use of sacred images to glorify God and His saints. Icons, far from being idols, are rooted in the theology of the Incarnation and serve to draw us closer to God through visible reminders of His divine presence and the lives of His saints.
 
JLB said:
I have photos of people bowing down before a statue of Mary.

I have watch catholic friends bowing down to images of saints and Mary, kissing them.

I tried pasting some here but couldn’t.


I will in a pm to you.
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Okay? What is your point?

Bowing before the cross and kissing icons is something I do every Sunday.

You're not proving that it is idolatry.
 
LanaPodesta said:
So it's not one of the Commandments.

1. **Context of Numbers 33**:
This commandment was given specifically to the Israelites as part of God’s covenant with them during their conquest of Canaan. The "engraved stones" and "molded images" referred to in this passage are explicitly tied to the idolatrous worship of false gods by the Canaanites. God instructed the Israelites to destroy these objects to prevent them from falling into idolatry. The context is not about prohibiting all images but about rejecting pagan worship practices.

2. **Icons Are Not Idols**:
In Orthodox theology, icons are not idols. Idolatry involves worshiping created objects as gods or treating them as having divine power. In contrast, icons are windows to heaven, intended to direct the veneration of the faithful to God, the saints, and the divine realities they represent. The honor given to an icon passes to the prototype, as explained by St. Basil the Great: "The honor paid to the image passes to the prototype."

3. **Biblical Basis for Sacred Images**:
While Numbers 33 commands the destruction of idols, the Bible also provides instances where God Himself commands the creation of sacred images for use in worship:
- The Ark of the Covenant was adorned with golden cherubim (Exodus 25:18-22).
- The Tabernacle and later the Temple included intricate carvings and decorations of angels, trees, and flowers (1 Kings 6:29-35).
These images were not idols but served as reminders of heavenly realities and were integral to the worship of the true God.

4. **The Incarnation Changes the Picture**:
The Old Testament prohibition against graven images stemmed, in part, from the incomprehensibility of God, who could not be depicted. However, in the New Testament, God became incarnate in Jesus Christ (John 1:14). As the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), Christ’s Incarnation sanctifies matter and makes it possible to depict Him. Icons of Christ, therefore, affirm the reality of the Incarnation.

5. **Early Church Practice**:
The use of icons in Christian worship can be traced back to the earliest centuries of the Church. Icons were seen as part of the Church’s living tradition, culminating in the Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 AD), which affirmed the veneration of icons against the claims of iconoclasts, declaring:
*"The honor rendered to the icon ascends to the prototype, and whoever venerates an icon venerates the person portrayed in it."*

In summary, Numbers 33 condemns idolatry, not the legitimate use of sacred images to glorify God and His saints. Icons, far from being idols, are rooted in the theology of the Incarnation and serve to draw us closer to God through visible reminders of His divine presence and the lives of His saints.
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Please paste the source for these paragraphs.
 
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