Pat Robertson's comment

[handy]

As far as Robertson's timing, no probably not the best timing.

However, if his comments can be looked on by those of us in the Body of Christ as a way of understanding the heart of Haiti's problems, then perhaps some good can come of it. Let's just keep in mind the difference between judging and understanding.

The question is though, how best to help Haiti. Obviously it will take more than just throwing more money at the nation.

Math was never my strong point, but I found out that just the US alone has sent over 3 billion dollars of aid to Haiti since Clinton was president, 17 years ago. Again, with my fuzzy math skills, for a country of around 9 million people, I think that works out to almost 20 million dollars for every citizen of Haiti. And, that's just US dollars. Other nations have been more than generous to Haiti as well.

So, the question is, why after getting all that money, is Haiti still so poor and unable to help themselves? With that amount of money pouring in, for over 17 years, why was the infrastructure of Haiti so unable to withstand the earthquake?

Needless to say, there is a lot of corruption in Haiti's government and in Haiti in general. There are some good folks there as well as a lot of innocents. But, thuggery rules there. So, before we just start sending more money to just disappear, we really need to think through on how best to truly help Haiti.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

When God sends a judgement to one person or nation over another it does not have to mean that that nation is more wicked than the rest but that He is showing the world a reason to repent themselves so that the same or worse does not come upon them and they likewise perish. Jesus shows us this example when speaking of the tower of siloam that fell on on people and the galaleens that pilate mixed with pigs blood. Jesus tells them, it is not that those people were WORSE sinners than the rest, but that unless you repent you will LIKEWISE perish. Now I cannot tell you why more people died in san fransisco. Maybe it is because there was a wider christian base praying for those people? Maybe it was because years ago less warning to repent was needed than today as this whole world grows more and more wicked by the year and time is coming to an end. This country is experiencing monetary problems others other forms of judgements from God and it is only going to get worse and worse and we will see if there is any left who will repent when they see these things.

As far as the " cult" talk. That is called the bible. It is God who says that He rules over nations, and that life and death are in His hands. All creation praises His name. The waves are not allowed to go beyond the boundry He has set, this whole creation moves and runs and is upheld by His word. there exists in Gods creation, no happen stance outside of Gods hand. There exists no loss of life without it coming from Gods hands. Yes this is also a natural world, sold under sin- HOWEVER it is GOD who has say of what will come upon a man or nation or the world as consequences for their sins and the sinfullness of this world.

The only hope is in Christ Jesus. If we help in such times with things physical but do not also minister spiritual truth which is the gospel preached and repentance then we save their physical lives and give no opportunity for their souls salvation.

 

[destiny]

There were present at that time some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose you that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.
(Luke 13:1-5)

Just think, JESUS said that^^

 

[Aero_Hudson]

There were present at that time some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose you that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, think you that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.
(Luke 13:1-5)

Just think, JESUS said that^^

What's your point? Does that somehow make what Pat said accurate? Are you comparing him to Jesus? Completely and utterly despicable what he said and not called for. The man needs to shut up and start promoting the Christian ideals of hope, salvation and reaching out to help your fellow neighbor not some bigotted hate speech he spewed.

Completely unacceptable.

 

[destiny]

W

When God sends a judgement to one person or nation over another it does not have to mean that that nation is more wicked than the rest but that He is showing the world a reason to repent themselves so that the same or worse does not come upon them and they likewise perish. Jesus shows us this example when speaking of the tower of siloam that fell on on people and the galaleens that pilate mixed with pigs blood. Jesus tells them, it is not that those people were WORSE sinners than the rest, but that unless you repent you will LIKEWISE perish. Now I cannot tell you why more people died in san fransisco. Maybe it is because there was a wider christian base praying for those people? Maybe it was because years ago less warning to repent was needed than today as this whole world grows more and more wicked by the year and time is coming to an end. This country is experiencing monetary problems others other forms of judgements from God and it is only going to get worse and worse and we will see if there is any left who will repent when they see these things.

As far as the " cult" talk. That is called the bible. It is God who says that He rules over nations, and that life and death are in His hands. All creation praises His name. The waves are not allowed to go beyond the boundry He has set, this whole creation moves and runs and is upheld by His word. there exists in Gods creation, no happen stance outside of Gods hand. There exists no loss of life without it coming from Gods hands. Yes this is also a natural world, sold under sin- HOWEVER it is GOD who has say of what will come upon a man or nation or the world as consequences for their sins and the sinfullness of this world.

The only hope is in Christ Jesus. If we help in such times with things physical but do not also minister spiritual truth which is the gospel preached and repentance then we save their physical lives and give no opportunity for their souls salvation.

hen God sends a judgement to one person or nation over another it does not have to mean that that nation is more wicked than the rest but that He is showing the world a reason to repent themselves so that the same or worse does not come upon them and they likewise perish. Jesus shows us this example when speaking of the tower of siloam that fell on on people and the galaleens that pilate mixed with pigs blood. Jesus tells them, it is not that those people were WORSE sinners than the rest, but that unless you repent you will LIKEWISE perish. Now I cannot tell you why more people died in san fransisco. Maybe it is because there was a wider christian base praying for those people? Maybe it was because years ago less warning to repent was needed than today as this whole world grows more and more wicked by the year and time is coming to an end. This country is experiencing monetary problems others other forms of judgements from God and it is only going to get worse and worse and we will see if there is any left who will repent when they see these things.

Let them call this hate speech, it is the truth.

 

[Drew]

When God sends a judgement to one person or nation over another it does not have to mean that that nation is more wicked than the rest but that He is showing the world a reason to repent themselves so that the same or worse does not come upon them and they likewise perish.

It is good, and I believe scripturally correct, to acknowledge that "the one nation" - in this case Haiti of course - may not be more sinful than others even if that first nation is punished,

However, and I struggle to say this without seeming impolite, one really does end up sending a mixed message if you go on to then add the "and unless you repent, the same thing will happen to you" bit. No matter how much one insists otherwise, this kind of statement necessarily implies that the "punished" nation is somehow more worthy of the calamity than other nations.

Imagine this scenario. Mom and Dad send little Johnny to bed without supper. The parents then tell little Jane (Johnny's sister) that the sentence passed on Johnny does not mean that Johnny has done anything worse than little Jane. So far so good, it is possible that the parents have done this to Johnny because he is sick, or otherwise should not be eating.

But, if the parents then turn to little Jane and say "Unless you repent, the same thing will happen to you", everything changes. Little Jane will get the clear message that despite the parent's denial, little Johnny has done somethng worse than what Jane has done and for that reason deserves his fate.

Now I suspect you will protest that the parent's singling out of Johnny over Jane for punishment simply means mercy for Jane, and not any specific indictment of Johnny as having done something worse than Jane. The problem with this is that we humans cannot really make sense of such a distinction – we have a strong sense that it is incoherent to give mercy to one while punishing another even if both are equally sinful. This is, I suggest, one of the many problems of embracing certain forms of Calvinism.

But that’s another story – in the Haiti context, I suggest that one simply cannot make the kind of argument you are making – it eats its own tail for the reasons I have given above.

 

[Dude named Louis]

When God sends a judgement to one person or nation over another it does not have to mean that that nation is more wicked than the rest but that He is showing the world a reason to repent themselves so that the same or worse does not come upon them and they likewise perish.

It is good, and I believe scripturally correct, to acknowledge that "the one nation" - in this case Haiti of course - may not be more sinful than others even if that first nation is punished,

If it is so they may not necessarily be more sinful then why are we even saying that they are being punished? Punished for what?

I have yet to be convinced that anyone can say that this is specific punishment or judgment on a nation as opposed to a really bad thing that happened in a really messed up world where bad things happen to good people because there really are no "good" people but praise be to God there is a savior who can redeem us and there is hope and peace in the midst of the storm. [yes, I know, run on sentence].

 

[Drew]

If it is so they may not necessarily be more sinful then why are we even saying that they are being punished? Punished for what?

I do not believe that Haiti is being punished - I was attempting characterize someone else's argument.

 

[Dude named Louis]

If it is so they may not necessarily be more sinful then why are we even saying that they are being punished? Punished for what?

I do not believe that Haiti is being punished - I was attempting characterize someone else's argument.

Oh, I thought that's what you were saying at first but then I got confused. I concur then, at least I don't think there is any way for us to know. I did like your post but was unsure what you meant re: some forms of Calvinism, can you clarify?

 

[Lewis]

Dora, I am glad that you came and cleared this up.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

drew, it is Jesus who gives the examples with the words that I used.I know it was already quoted a few times but here it is again
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

This does not say that those in the tower were not sinners, it shows that yes they were sinners but they were not worse sinners. But except you repent you will likewise perish.

The point here is that YES they are guilty and being judged BUT the lesson to learn is to repent before it happens to you also. It does not mean one is worse then the other, but that both are guilty and deserve judgement so repent from this example before it hits you as well.

Now as far as the two children situation, I do not have a problem with one child recieving grace while the other punishment as long as it is not the same child that gets the grace every single time and the same one getting punshment every single time. We all need to learn the differnce between mercy and grace, and punishment. I have four children. Sometimes one gets more grace then the rest sometimes one gets more punishment then the rest, it depends on what is best for them.

Now my husband and I were discussing Haiti at dinner and I believe that we realised something that very well may be true. Now i will say that we both 100% agree that this is a judgement of God. Not because they were worse sinners, but because all nations are in need of judgement and worse is coming, hopefully some will see and repent. But we heard some things about Haiti and now I believe that the reason that God chose Haiti(at least one reason) to bring this judgement and example to the world, is that Haiti was the best place to do this to cause the people in Haiti to repent. That God knew that more people in Haiti would come to Him and repent from this, than would in other nations if the same judgement was brought there. The thing about haiti is that yes there is alot of devil worship there, and there is also good christians who are faithful there, but they are not so prideful to trust in only themselves. So for many of them things really are a spiritual battle between the strength of the Almighty God, and the devils worshipped there. As opposed to many other nations that discount spiritual things and would not be moved towards God and repentance through such things but instead to pride, and science and nature.

The other thing about this earthquake is that God has seen that many ways of these people recieving help from men have been cut off but not totally. Because many ways of bringing in aid were effected because of the port, and because even the un people were toppled over there in Haiti there is not as much help coming to them from men- BUT when men are weak and incapable and not available, THEN people will finally go to their last resort GOD! When they find no man in sight they call out tot he living God! In the bible even pagans leaders were willing to hear the men of God when they needed it. As long as we have the strength of men to help as people we are less likely to seek God. The more money power su[pplies we have to prop ourselves up the less we feel we need him. But when those things are largley cut off, we cry out to Him in repentance and mercy and are willing to hear and believe and God does great wonders and saves many alive in those situations!I believe that Yes God brought this, and that many will also repent because of it. That there will be wonderful testimonies and great salvation from the Lord through these things that men cannot comprehend!

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Truly the Lord is merciful even in judgement! Here are three precious ones protected and held up by the Lord

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... ubble.html

 

[micaela]

Whether this was God's judgment or not...only He knows. I don't think that is really our concern. Our concern is to pray for these people and reach out to them as best as we can, even if that is just prayer for them. There were many survivors and they are going to be hurting for a long, long time. Who can they turn to for comfort and support? If all Christians stood back and wagged their fingers at them and said, "Well, this is what you get" then how would that help? I don't know. I just think love is the only answer.

:yes Yes that is absolutely right JoJo. Jesus taught us to love everyone and to be compassionate. We shouldn't be hypocrites, all of us, every human being in this world falls short of the glory of God. But we still need to love and have compassion. These poor people! Can you imaging what they are even going through? They deserve our help and our prayers.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I think that the comment made by Pat Robertson, about a Haiti making a pack with the devil 200 years ago, could have something to it. I respect Pat, but people are gearing up to harpoon Pat. The radio here in Philly and everywhere else, is all over this. They are saying how could he say that, and how could he say this. Well I want to research this thing to see if it is true, because Haiti has a lot of voodoo stuff going on down there, as well as other type rituals. But for right now Pat is in trouble. But as for me, for the moment, I am with Pat

In Haiti so called Christians have joined Paganism and Voodoo to Christianity. It certainly looks as God has punished Haiti.

 

[happyjoy]

I think that the comment made by Pat Robertson, about a Haiti making a pack with the devil 200 years ago, could have something to it. I respect Pat, but people are gearing up to harpoon Pat. The radio here in Philly and everywhere else, is all over this. They are saying how could he say that, and how could he say this. Well I want to research this thing to see if it is true, because Haiti has a lot of voodoo stuff going on down there, as well as other type rituals. But for right now Pat is in trouble. But as for me, for the moment, I am with Pat

In Haiti so called Christians have joined Paganism and Voodoo to Christianity. It certainly looks as God has punished Haiti.

God has punished no one. Haiti lies on a geologic fault line, which is what caused the earth quake. Enough of blaming the victims. I am sure the true Christians have donated some of their wealth to help these desperate people, while false teachers just blame the victim, and say they deserve it.

 

[destiny]

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Tim 4:3

 

[happyjoy]

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Tim 4:3

I couldn't have put it better my self. There seems to be a great number of people here who only spout hate from their hearts, and cannot hide their happiness when others suffer. It is truly despicable and not Christian in the slightest. I can only take solace in the knowledge that in the end the love of Jesus will prevail against this perversion of the message of Jesus.

 

[Caroline H]

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Tim 4:3

I couldn't have put it better my self. There seems to be a great number of people here who only spout hate from their hearts, and cannot hide their happiness when others suffer. It is truly despicable and not Christian in the slightest. I can only take solace in the knowledge that in the end the love of Jesus will prevail against this perversion of the message of Jesus.

Have you also noticed the many people here who hurt when others hurt, and have compassion in their hearts for those who suffer, and who long to see the lost come to Christ? Try not to lump everyone together just because there are a few hateful people here, you will find hateful people everywhere you go, even in your own church. :yes

 

[destiny]

First we need to establish what hate is. Where is hatred in this thread?

To say it was science or happenstance is love. To say God judged is hate. Is that correct?

 

[jasoncran]

If that the case then God is judging and has judged Haiti like that then Florida is next as it has a large jamaican/hatian migrant population. Sangria /voodo and all manner of new age is big in Florida. :bigfrown My :bigfrown hometown has a lot of physichs.

edited this post