Paul's Eschatological Model of Justification

[Drew]

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

In many years on this and other forums, I have witnessed a range of interesting ways of dealing with this text in order to accommodate it within a model where final justification is based solely on faith (and has nothing to do with how we have lived). Approaches include:

1. Avoidance: never actually dealing with this statement and citing all Paul’s (and Jesus’s) statements about justification by faith;

2. Claiming that even though the text says the “good guys” get eternal life, Paul is really saying they get rewards (one is then prompted to ask why Paul did not say this in the first place);

3. That there are ZERO persons in the category of those who get eternal life based on their good deeds (why Paul would identify a category with zero persons in it is not explained: I am inclined to point out that zero people will get eternal life by being 6 feet tall, so why hasn’t Paul introduced this category as well?);

4. That all of Romans 2 is a hypothetical scenario – this is what God would do in a world where we weren’t all hopeless sinners, but He has in fact provided a different way. Why Paul does not say he is speaking hypothetically is not explained.

And there are more. For my part, I believe that Paul would not write something he does not mean. So how do we responsibly deal with this text? By accepting the following general model for justification that I believe is supported by lots of Biblical evidence:

When a person in the present places faith in Jesus, that person is given the Holy Spirit on the basis solely of that faith; the Spirit then assuredly transforms this person into the kind of person who indeed “persists in doing good” and, at a future judgment, is given eternal life on that basis.

Much more to come. No doubt this will inspire vigorous discussion. I only hope that when people are called to actually defend their views in a reasonable manner, the replies are not simply accusations of heresy stimulating closure of the thread and getting the accuser off the hook from actually dealing with texts like Romans 2:6-7.

Let the games begin…..

 

[jasonc]

Better in the end times forums not here
Key phrase eschatology

 

[Drew]

Better in the end times forums not here
Key phrase eschatology

I disagree, although I see why the term "eschatology" made you think this. This is really not an "end times" topic per se, although it does have a rather obvious end times aspect. My intent in using this word was to underscore that Paul's vision of justification has different things going on at different times - one cannot simply pinpoint justification at one point in time.

 

[jasonc]

I disagree, although I see why the term "eschatology" made you think this. This is really not an "end times" topic per se, although it does have a rather obvious end times aspect. My intent in using this word was to underscore that Paul's vision of justification has different things going on at different times - one cannot simply pinpoint justification at one point in time.

Judgement etc .It will be and end time deal.Rev 20 let alone will be fun.
And I saw the dead before the great white throne.. and whosoever was not written in the book of life.
Oh which death is for whom?
First death second death.it's that stuff
Blessed are they that are of the first resurrection.
That too.all end times.I have jumped from the torah to Revalation and back

 

[Obadiah]

Please read the guidelines for posting in this forum here. One of them requires that all posts "...either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread..." This means an actual chapter, verse, and version citation must be included. Refernces to entire chapters do not meet this requirement unless you are going to show how each individual verse in that chapter applies to your point. Also, when quoting scripture, the guidelines require that you cite the chapter and verse(s) reference as well as federal copyright law and the Terms of Service require that you also include the version you are quoting (NIV, NASB, etc.)

 

[dadof10]

(Post deleted, ToS 2.4, belittling comment toward those who hold a different point of view and failure to provide scriptural support. Obadiah.)

 

[eddif]

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Our work (really his work in us) is in the now (day) to get people into:
a Father relationship
a Son relationship (his works)
a Holy Spirit relationship

It is not about us, but them (the one them). If there is a better word than relationship, I am open.

The now will sure concern the end times eventually, but the stress seems to be on what actions now caused the future actions.

Works of the law(IMHO) can be excluded.
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

No mud slinging (this includes Mississippi folks mud riding in their 4X4s). Attention eddif (you too).

eddif

 

[Sinthesis]

What you believe in steers your actions. The evidence for what you believed will be in what you have done. Therefore, if you claim you serve God, but persist in a self-seeking, truth-rejecting, evil-following lifestyle, then even though you may accomplish much in God's name, He may look upon you as a stranger at judgement.

 

[smaller]

(Section removed, response to deleted post. Obadiah)

We might ask ourselves some very very sincere questions someday. Not that I expect it, but it can happen.

We know for example that MAN, that would be each of us, as believers for the purposes of observations here, will LIVE by Every Word of God. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4. So, why then, if we will LIVE by Every Word, do we FEAR some Words? I suspect every last one of you FEARS to hear these Words of LIFE:

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Why is it that we refuse to hear, to see, that we ALL work iniquity? Is anyone sinless? Is sin iniquity? Yes, and YES.

I recite that reminder, "depart from me ye that work iniquity" when I am attacked by my adversary within. Don't YOU?

IF Christ is walking "in you and with you" then you WILL hear those Words, and not run from them.

His Word is YOUR ALLY and YOUR LIFE!

 

[eddif]

(Post removed, A&T Guidelines state: Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies. Obadiah)

 

[Seabass]

Rom 2:6 fits other verses as Matt 16:27; Matt 25:31-46; 1 Cor 3:8; 2 Cor 5:10; Rev 20:12,13.

Rev 2:26 the ones that overcome are the ones that keepeth Christ's works.....with overcoming based upon works.
To the 7 churches in Asia, Christ judged them by their works "I know thy works" Rev 2:2; Rev 2:9; Rev 2:13 etc.

James 2:21,25 "....justified by works..."
Gal 3:24 ---------"...justified by faith..."
Since there is just one way to be justified, then faith must be a work.

Titus 3:7 --------"justified by grace..."
Since grace also justifies that can only mean grace conditionally includes the work of faith.

There is a theology that claims man is so totally depraved he cannot obey God unless God first "regenerates" man first. Yet in Rom 2:6 Paul is speaking about what God renders unto man for the deeds man does and it's not about God rendering unto man for what God has done unto man. If God did not 'regenerate" men then God would be morally culpable for them being lost. Therefore men are accountable, responsible for their own works (Mt 16:27; 1 Cor 3:8) and those works will determine if one has eternal life Rom 2:7 or indignation and wrath Rom 2:8 for not obeying (see also 2 Thess 1:8 for how those that obey not will be judged by God)

 

[Doulos Iesou]

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

In many years on this and other forums, I have witnessed a range of interesting ways of dealing with this text in order to accommodate it within a model where final justification is based solely on faith (and has nothing to do with how we have lived). Approaches include:

1. Avoidance: never actually dealing with this statement and citing all Paul’s (and Jesus’s) statements about justification by faith;

2. Claiming that even though the text says the “good guys” get eternal life, Paul is really saying they get rewards (one is then prompted to ask why Paul did not say this in the first place);

3. That there are ZERO persons in the category of those who get eternal life based on their good deeds (why Paul would identify a category with zero persons in it is not explained: I am inclined to point out that zero people will get eternal life by being 6 feet tall, so why hasn’t Paul introduced this category as well?);

4. That all of Romans 2 is a hypothetical scenario – this is what God would do in a world where we weren’t all hopeless sinners, but He has in fact provided a different way. Why Paul does not say he is speaking hypothetically is not explained.

And there are more. For my part, I believe that Paul would not write something he does not mean. So how do we responsibly deal with this text? By accepting the following general model for justification that I believe is supported by lots of Biblical evidence:

When a person in the present places faith in Jesus, that person is given the Holy Spirit on the basis solely of that faith; the Spirit then assuredly transforms this person into the kind of person who indeed “persists in doing good” and, at a future judgment, is given eternal life on that basis.

Much more to come. No doubt this will inspire vigorous discussion. I only hope that when people are called to actually defend their views in a reasonable manner, the replies are not simply accusations of heresy stimulating closure of the thread and getting the accuser off the hook from actually dealing with texts like Romans 2:6-7.

Let the games begin…..

I've been trying to get a conversation going on future justification on this site for a long time, but it never goes anywhere.

Best of luck to you!

 

[reba]

Your moderator posted this paragraph 7 post ago i guess 4 out of the 7 posts is doing pretty good.

Please read the guidelines for posting in this forum here. One of them requires that all posts "...either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread..." This means an actual chapter, verse, and version citation must be included. Refernces to entire chapters do not meet this requirement unless you are going to show how each individual verse in that chapter applies to your point. Also, when quoting scripture, the guidelines require that you cite the chapter and verse(s) reference as well as federal copyright law and the Terms of Service require that you also include the version you are quoting (NIV, NASB, etc.)

 

[Drew]

Your moderator posted this paragraph 7 post ago i guess 4 out of the 7 posts is doing pretty good.

Which posts, beside the first one, violate the cited TOS?

 

[Sinthesis]

Which posts, beside the first one, violate the cited TOS?

Probably mine because I left this out:

Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

 

[WIP]

It wasn't the ToS that was cited. It was the forum guidelines. This forum is not intended for arguing opinions back and forth without showing how those opinions line up with Scripture. If you make a statement of claim you must show how this is derived from Scripture since Scripture is the basis from which we draw our conclusions.

 

[Drew]

It wasn't the ToS that was cited. It was the forum guidelines. This forum is not intended for arguing opinions back and forth without showing how those opinions line up with Scripture. If you make a statement of claim you must show how this is derived from Scripture since Scripture is the basis from which we draw our conclusions.

Ok, that makes sense - thanks for taking the time to clarify.

 

[Butch5]

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

In many years on this and other forums, I have witnessed a range of interesting ways of dealing with this text in order to accommodate it within a model where final justification is based solely on faith (and has nothing to do with how we have lived). Approaches include:

1. Avoidance: never actually dealing with this statement and citing all Paul’s (and Jesus’s) statements about justification by faith;

2. Claiming that even though the text says the “good guys” get eternal life, Paul is really saying they get rewards (one is then prompted to ask why Paul did not say this in the first place);

3. That there are ZERO persons in the category of those who get eternal life based on their good deeds (why Paul would identify a category with zero persons in it is not explained: I am inclined to point out that zero people will get eternal life by being 6 feet tall, so why hasn’t Paul introduced this category as well?);

4. That all of Romans 2 is a hypothetical scenario – this is what God would do in a world where we weren’t all hopeless sinners, but He has in fact provided a different way. Why Paul does not say he is speaking hypothetically is not explained.

And there are more. For my part, I believe that Paul would not write something he does not mean. So how do we responsibly deal with this text? By accepting the following general model for justification that I believe is supported by lots of Biblical evidence:

When a person in the present places faith in Jesus, that person is given the Holy Spirit on the basis solely of that faith; the Spirit then assuredly transforms this person into the kind of person who indeed “persists in doing good” and, at a future judgment, is given eternal life on that basis.

Much more to come. No doubt this will inspire vigorous discussion. I only hope that when people are called to actually defend their views in a reasonable manner, the replies are not simply accusations of heresy stimulating closure of the thread and getting the accuser off the hook from actually dealing with texts like Romans 2:6-7.

Let the games begin…..

Hi Drew,

Can you clarify this statement for me, "When a person in the present places faith in Jesus, that person is given the Holy Spirit on the basis solely of that faith; the? " When you said based solely on faith, do you mean belief alone?

 

[Drew]

(Post removed. Failure to follow A&T guidelines. Obadiah)

 

[Drew]

(Post removed. Failure to follow A&T guidelines. Obadiah)