Paul's "Thorn in the Flesh"

[glorydaz]

I've heard a lot of speculation about the "messenger of satan" that buffeted Paul with a "thorn in the flesh."

Some say pride or some physical infirmity.

For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

Paul was well-versed in Scripture. Where did he get this idea of thorns in the flesh?

These uses in the OT are speaking of worldly men.

Joshua 23:13 - "Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you."

Ezekiel 2:6 - "And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house."

Judges 2:3 - "Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you."

Numbers 33:55 - "But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell."

Anyone else see a correlation between Paul's thorn and these verses?

 

[Prentis]

Interesting! I had never searched 'thorn in the flesh' in the OT.

One thing I think is clear, is that it was to keep him humble. Paul was clothed with such power, and much such a great ambassador of the kingdom, God by this protected him from falling under the condemnation of the devil.

 

[Gazelle]

Good topic, imo.

Yes, many hold to the belief that Paul's ailment was a vision problem. It could have been a physical issue, because he had Luke, a physician, travel with him. But then, maybe physicians (especially believing ones) were probably the only ones to offer psychological counsel as well?
Another verse that leans towards a vision or physical issue is the one where he writes, "See what large letter I have written to you with my own hand" in Galatians 6:1. This could be read a few ways, but I believe he didn't usually write his own letters, but dictated them and "signed off on them". It could be he did this due to an eye sight issue, or even a hand problem (but then, he made tapestries so .

It also fits (an eye issue) since he did have that encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus...having seen the glory of God? Moses was physically affected, perhaps Paul was too? But yes, Paul ascribes it to the devil...or at least the devil used it against him.

Back on topic I guess.... I personally think about the "fiery darts of the devil" when I think of Paul's affliction.

But I think he may have had emotional issues as well, as he may never have come to grips with what he had done in the past to the Christians. But this is a study itself, and perhaps one I will begin later on, not here.

 

[Free]

That he would be under spiritual attack goes without saying. I think it was an eye problem:

Galatians 4:13-15, 13 You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first, 14 and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. 15 What then has become of the blessing you felt? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have gouged out your eyes and given them to me. (ESV)

 

[Adullam]

That he would be under spiritual attack goes without saying. I think it was an eye problem:

Galatians 4:13-15, 13 You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first, 14 and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. 15 What then has become of the blessing you felt? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have gouged out your eyes and given them to me. (ESV)

Could be anything from stigmatism to stigmata! ;)

 

[Sinthesis]

Could be anything from stigmatism to stigmata! ;)

I didn't need to see that.:verysicking

 

[2bfoundinhim]

Hi everyone,

I love this little emoticon....

Anyhoo, Paul's Thorn in the flesh...I have thought long and hard on this matter, and The Lord drew me back to the beginning, where it is first mentioned,

Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I personally believe that this is the Carnal mind or the lingering thoughts of it.

A messenger of Satan to buffet him, I believe keept reminding him of who he used to be, a christian killer, I believe Paul had to continue to cast down imaginations and every high thing that was trying to exalt itself against the Knowledge of the Truth that he had come to know.

There are so many things that Paul addresses on this subject of the mind, example...Put on the mind of Christ....to be carnally minded is death, .....be renewed in the spirit of your mind....and on and on.

But I also believe that he knew very well, why the Crown of Thorns was place upon Christ head and because of this... he was able to say with all assurance, that he would not be brought under the power of any as he saw the Lord Himself take that mind upon the Cross and Crucify it, and all the enemies there of.

Soooo....Just my understanding, I believe it was the old nature that satan's messenger was attempting to get at, but the Truth prevailed and keep him humble, and served him well.

Blessings

 

[for_his_glory]

I would venture to say it was pride being made humbled in Paul as his thorn was that of the angel of Satan trying to make Paul think he was better than anyone else in Gods ministry which could have caused Paul to boast even though he knew boasting was only that of pride and if he was prideful and not humbled before the Lord he would be blinded to the visions and revelations that God was giving him.

 

[glorydaz]

All great comments and give a lot of food for thought.

I find it very interesting, especially when we see how the different words are used in the rest of the Bible.

This thorn in the flesh is a "messenger of satan" sent to BUFFET Paul.

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

The Greek word kolaphizo (buffet) speaks of a physical beating...with the fist.

These verses combined with the verses from the OT give faces to the thorns in the flesh. I believe the messenger from satan was none other than the ungodly men sent to revile and persecute him to distract him from preaching the Gospel. That's what they were in the OT....enemies of God's people.

Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.

Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

I don't believe it could have been a physical infirmity, because it wouldn't be called a "messenger from satan." Illnesses or physical afflictions aren't ever called messengers that I have seen.

 

[Gazelle]

Hmmm couldn't it have been physical since he says it's in his "flesh"? And, something psychological could be remedied by proper thought processes (and focus upon Christ.) As depressed as Paul became, I think this was because of that, and perhaps his self inflicted guilt about putting all the Christians to death while he was parading about as a Pharasee. (Oh I could do a whole thread on this, and might sometime.)

I see it as a definite physical ailment, thus the remark, and thus his need for Luke to be by his side. I lean more towards a vision problem since he did go blind from the road experience, and had to have his sight restored, right?

Are you thinking that he didn't have any physical ailments, but that the "messenger" was a resident (in the area) demon?

 

[glorydaz]

Hmmm couldn't it have been physical since he says it's in his "flesh"? And, something psychological could be remedied by proper thought processes (and focus upon Christ.) As depressed as Paul became, I think this was because of that, and perhaps his self inflicted guilt about putting all the Christians to death while he was parading about as a Pharasee. (Oh I could do a whole thread on this, and might sometime.)

I see it as a definite physical ailment, thus the remark, and thus his need for Luke to be by his side. I lean more towards a vision problem since he did go blind from the road experience, and had to have his sight restored, right?

Are you thinking that he didn't have any physical ailments, but that the "messenger" was a resident (in the area) demon?

No, I absolutely don't think Paul had a demon. But check these verses out once again, and think of how it's used today. It's more like a burr under my saddle, or a pain in the neck.

Remember how well-versed Paul was in the OT. We see these verse where it refers to "inhabitants, nations, the ungodly heathens. Or, the people who persecuted Paul because He preached the Gospel.

But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

Buffeting, as I noted already, implies "with fist". We know Paul was definately buffeted.

Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

Paul speaks of the ministers of satan here. I tend to think these are the same "thorn in the flesh", the same pain in the neck that Paul is talking about. The pharisees and others who persecuted Paul so.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

Including, probably, these "ministers of satan" who Paul "delivered" back.

Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

I just don't see it as a physical infirmity, since Paul prayed to be delivered from it three times. Yet, he says this about infirmities..."Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong." 2 Cor. 12:10

I do think the Lord allowed his persecutions to keep him humble and seeking strength from the Lord, just as He does for us today. And I'd be interested in such a thread, as you mentioned. I don't believe Paul was feeling guilty, though, about what he'd done. He spoke freely about it, yes, to show what a sinner he was before he was saved. But guilt over sins in the past are easily healed by the Spirit when He creates in us a new heart.

 

[jasoncran]

Hi everyone,

I love this little emoticon....

Anyhoo, Paul's Thorn in the flesh...I have thought long and hard on this matter, and The Lord drew me back to the beginning, where it is first mentioned,

Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I personally believe that this is the Carnal mind or the lingering thoughts of it.

A messenger of Satan to buffet him, I believe keept reminding him of who he used to be, a christian killer, I believe Paul had to continue to cast down imaginations and every high thing that was trying to exalt itself against the Knowledge of the Truth that he had come to know.

There are so many things that Paul addresses on this subject of the mind, example...Put on the mind of Christ....to be carnally minded is death, .....be renewed in the spirit of your mind....and on and on.

But I also believe that he knew very well, why the Crown of Thorns was place upon Christ head and because of this... he was able to say with all assurance, that he would not be brought under the power of any as he saw the Lord Himself take that mind upon the Cross and Crucify it, and all the enemies there of.

Soooo....Just my understanding, I believe it was the old nature that satan's messenger was attempting to get at, but the Truth prevailed and keep him humble, and served him well.

Blessings

thorns are symbol of man attempts to be righteous.

that is why that was placed on the lords head.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

These verses combined with the verses from the OT give faces to the thorns in the flesh. I believe the messenger from satan was none other than the ungodly men sent to revile and persecute him to distract him from preaching the Gospel. That's what they were in the OT....enemies of God's people.

But in the OT these were people who the people of God embraced against God's will. The promise of God for doing that was to suffer under them. Doesn't apply to Paul's situation. Paul's persecutions have nothing to do with him sinfully associating with unbelievers.

IMO, outsider being allowed to inhabit the kingdom in the OT is symbolic of how we as a nation and people of God are not to allow sin to dwell in the kingdom and Temple of our bodies and congregations.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That he would be under spiritual attack goes without saying. I think it was an eye problem:

Galatians 4:13-15, 13 You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first, 14 and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. 15 What then has become of the blessing you felt? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have gouged out your eyes and given them to me. (ESV)

This is a large part of the reason why I believe he is speaking of being humbled by failing eyesight and the need for outside help.

Persecution by others is probably more often an occasion to take pride in what you stand for, not make you ashamed of it. Even Jesus said to rejoice when you are persecuted for Kingdom's sake. I would say persecution generally builds a person up in regard to their status with God, not tears them down.

 

[Free]

This is a large part of the reason why I believe he is speaking of being humbled by failing eyesight and the need for outside help.

Persecution by others is probably more often an occasion to take pride in what you stand for, not make you ashamed of it. Even Jesus said to rejoice when you are persecuted for Kingdom's sake. I would say persecution generally builds a person up in regard to their status with God, not tears them down.

I agree. There are at least two passages which would suggest failing eyesight, both of which have been posted. In other words, this position has the most support for what Paul meant by "thorn in the flesh".

To say that it was a person, or persons, is to ignore the numerous times Paul was persecuted by various persons and groups of people. His thorn in the flesh seems to be referring to something specific, not some ambiguous person or persons.

 

[glorydaz]

I agree. There are at least two passages which would suggest failing eyesight, both of which have been posted. In other words, this position has the most support for what Paul meant by "thorn in the flesh".

To say that it was a person, or persons, is to ignore the numerous times Paul was persecuted by various persons and groups of people. His thorn in the flesh seems to be referring to something specific, not some ambiguous person or persons.

I'm just looking how thorn in the flesh is used in the rest of scripture. Thorns represent sin, and thorns in the flesh are the ungodly that come against the people of God. It's the same with the use of the word buffet. Failing eyesight doesn't really sound like buffeting to me.

The most telling, though, is the messenger from satan. This verse states the "wicked one" "touches" us not.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Who, not what, is implied by the word messenger.

Paul could be referring to one group or even one particular person that is specifically targeting Paul for the message he brings through the continual beatings, once nearly to death. He prayed three times that he would be delivered from this thorn. Would Paul really pray three times because of a physical frailty, or would he accept it as a limitation allowed by God? God is in control of our physical well being...not some messenger from satan.

The most difficult part to imagine is Paul referring to failing eyesight as a thorn in his flesh when he goes through all this. And to pray three times about his eyesight? That just doesn't seem to fit the bill.

But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

What would truly distress Paul if not those who perverted the very message he brought, and those who persecuted him because of it? I can see Paul praying for that cup to be removed. I pray for that often, and I do consider anyone who handles the Word of God deceitfully to be a messenger from satan.

11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
17For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

"My strength is made perfect in weakness," so Paul takes pleasure in his infirmities, reproaches...persecutions...

Certainly his persecutions and reproaches were harder to bear than failing eyesight. Seems to me.

For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.[/u] And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[2bfoundinhim]

I agree glory,

And again as I stated in a earlier post that, The Crown of Thorns on Christ HEAD, is a key to our understanding.

After all this is where the enmity or enemy is.

Blessings

 

[Gazelle]

Well of course he didn't have a demon, believers can't...but the way it's reading y'all are saying it has to be demonic as it's that "messenger"....

the only other thing I'd vote for is depression. I can see throughout his writings where he ebbed and flowed I guess... and even thought about suicide... do you think that "messenger" was depression? That could account for an on call doctor I guess.

 

[glorydaz]

I agree glory,

And again as I stated in a earlier post that, The Crown of Thorns on Christ HEAD, is a key to our understanding.

After all this is where the enmity or enemy is.

Blessings

It's also a great picture of Christ bearing our sins on the cross.

 

[glorydaz]

Well of course he didn't have a demon, believers can't...but the way it's reading y'all are saying it has to be demonic as it's that "messenger"....

the only other thing I'd vote for is depression. I can see throughout his writings where he ebbed and flowed I guess... and even thought about suicide... do you think that "messenger" was depression? That could account for an on call doctor I guess.

Where did you get the idea that Paul thought about suicide?

Luke was much more than a doctor. He just happened to be a physician, and if anyone needed patching up it would be Paul. He was buffeted for his faith...no doubt about that.

Anyway, messengers are always people or angels in the Bible...at least as far as I've seen.

We see many times God sent messengers, such as here when the Israelites were in one of their rebellious periods. God has compassion on whom He will have compassion, but it only goes so far. Israel just never seemed to learn.

- 2 Chron. 36:15-16 "And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place: But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.

So a messenger from satan has to be an angel or man, seems to me. We know it's not a demon, for as you so correctly stated, "believers can't" have demons. Therefore, that leaves a man or men. Probably those of the Pharisee sect. Just as the thorns throughout the OT, thorns in the sides and the eyes, etc., we always see it's the ungodly who persecuted God's people.

These false prophets, these ministers of satan who appear as angels of light are frequent subjects of his letters. Can you imagine how it was to go against the Jewish scribes and pharisees who thought they knew the Scripture better than anyone?

Personally, I think those are the messenger of satan, and they are a thorn in his side....a pain in his neck, literally.

2 Peter 2 - 1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

And the fact that he says messenger singular is because he saw them as the "antichrist".

1 John 2:18 -"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." 2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.