Perfection?

[Bubba]

The explaination by Tony Warren states that the Hebrew and Greek translation of the word "sin" means to "miss the mark".
From "Let us Reason Ministries";
"The law has a relationship to sin, it gives the standard to show what sin is. Rom.4:15: “because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.†However this word “law†does not always refer only to the 10 commandments. Sin is called transgression of the law, but not all sin is transgression of the 10. The law keeps one in check, it is a boundary line. Rom.5:13 “For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.†This shows there was sin previously without the 10 Commandments which means that God gave numerous commands before, these are spoken laws to those he instructed. History shows this to be true, for example the angels sinned, 2 Pet. 2:4 which means as it states they left their assigned place that God gave; Adam sinned not by breaking the 10 (Rom.5:12). The only commandments God gave Adam were to keep the garden, be fruitful and not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. These texts have no reference to the 10 commandments. The Sodomites sinned, Gen.13:13 “the Gentiles which have not the law†sinned, Rom.2:12-14. We can see that sin is something more than a violation of the Decalogue. In the New Testament John says, “All unrighteousness is sin†1 John 5:17. A neglect to do good is sin James 4:17, Unbelief is sin Rom.14:23, but none of these are a transgression of the Decalogue. There are numerous wrongs that the Decalogue does not address. God writes to us that the law came so we may know how to measure sin specifically. Through time God continued to give commands, Rom.5:20 “Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more.†The laws intent was to increase ones ability to sin, to exaggerate its practice so it would be evident. Rom.3:20 “for through the Law {comes} the knowledge of sinâ€. This is the same law Paul speaks about that condemns and makes one guilty it includes the 10 commandments and anything else contrary to God. The law was given to show man could not meet the requirements of God. If you put yourself under the law you will sin, it has no power, its for those who operate in the flesh to know they fall short of his standard."

 

[watchm@n]

To miss the mark. Romans 3:23: "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Bubba

I agree with you bubba all have sinned past tense, However that does not mean we should conitnue to sin after we have been freed from the bondage of sin and death.

 

[Nathan]

I do not see where the mark we are called too is sinlessness. Let me quantify that statement. Lets use the ideology of a archer. When an archer shoots an arrow at a target and "misses", he has in effect 'sinned'. Now, does the archer then make the spot where he missed the mark? No, he chooses to forget that 'sin' and focuses again on the mark. Christ is our target, if we get focused in on the failings we loose sight of the true call.

Out of the ESV, 1 Timothy 1:5 "The aim of our charge is love...that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith". The aim is love, the outcome of "hitting" the mark is a pure heart, a good conscience and sincere faith. Jesus said, John 14:23-24 "Jesus answered him, 'If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me'."

I know that this is a subject for intense debate, but the way it is written is making it clear that its not a matter of showing our love for Him by keeping His commandments, its that we keep His commandments because we do love Him. It all comes together when you look at the opposite, Jesus did not say 'Whoever does not keep my commandments does not love me'. He said "Whoever does not love me, does not keep my words."

 

[watchman F]

I do not see where the mark we are called too is sinlessness. Let me quantify that statement. Lets use the ideology of a archer. When an archer shoots an arrow at a target and "misses", he has in effect 'sinned'. Now, does the archer then make the spot where he missed the mark? No, he chooses to forget that 'sin' and focuses again on the mark. Christ is our target, if we get focused in on the failings we loose sight of the true call.

Out of the ESV, 1 Timothy 1:5 "The aim of our charge is love...that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith". The aim is love, the outcome of "hitting" the mark is a pure heart, a good conscience and sincere faith. Jesus said, John 14:23-24 "Jesus answered him, 'If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me'."

I know that this is a subject for intense debate, but the way it is written is making it clear that its not a matter of showing our love for Him by keeping His commandments, its that we keep His commandments because we do love Him. It all comes together when you look at the opposite, Jesus did not say 'Whoever does not keep my commandments does not love me'. He said "Whoever does not love me, does not keep my words."

Scripture also tell us to make no provision for our flesh.
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

If our goal is any but living a sinless life (because of our love for Christ of course) Then we are making provision for our flesh.

If we claim we cannot not sin because we are human and all humans sin, then that is doing exactly what God through Pauyl tells us not to do, making provision for our flesh.

 

[Bubba]

I do not see where the mark we are called too is sinlessness. Let me quantify that statement. Lets use the ideology of a archer. When an archer shoots an arrow at a target and "misses", he has in effect 'sinned'. Now, does the archer then make the spot where he missed the mark? No, he chooses to forget that 'sin' and focuses again on the mark. Christ is our target, if we get focused in on the failings we loose sight of the true call.

Out of the ESV, 1 Timothy 1:5 "The aim of our charge is love...that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith". The aim is love, the outcome of "hitting" the mark is a pure heart, a good conscience and sincere faith. Jesus said, John 14:23-24 "Jesus answered him, 'If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me'."

I know that this is a subject for intense debate, but the way it is written is making it clear that its not a matter of showing our love for Him by keeping His commandments, its that we keep His commandments because we do love Him. It all comes together when you look at the opposite, Jesus did not say 'Whoever does not keep my commandments does not love me'. He said "Whoever does not love me, does not keep my words."

I agree with what you wrote and would only add that even those deeds that we do that are motivated by love for our Saviour originated from God who changed our hearts.

Ephesians 2:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
10for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.
Phil. 2:13
13for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Grace, Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Scripture also tell us to make no provision for our flesh.
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

If our goal is any but living a sinless life (because of our love for Christ of course) Then we are making provision for our flesh.

If we claim we cannot not sin because we are human and all humans sin, then that is doing exactly what God through Pauyl tells us not to do, making provision for our flesh.

Watchman,
When we become a Christian, we are a new creation, Christ in us, though we may struggle with the flesh, this struggle does not change who we are. Paul wrote:
Corinthians 6:12 (American Standard Version)
12 "All things are lawful for me; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful for me; but I will not be brought under the power of any."
For the believer, the motivations are to not be controlled by the flesh, but by the Spirit. The danger arises, when the believer finds himself in one or the other of these positions; the first is that he can sin at will, without consequence and the second is that he believes he actually can go through life and not fall victim to the "flesh". I guess there is also a third position, which is those who trust in their ability to be sinless, instead of the finish work of Jesus in their stead.
Grace, Bubba

 

[Nathan]

I agree with what you wrote and would only add that even those deeds that we do that are motivated by love for our Saviour originated from God who changed our hearts.

Ephesians 2:10 (Young's Literal Translation)
10for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.
Phil. 2:13
13for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Grace, Bubba

Yes, definitely! It is all from God who works through us. I would add to that list out of the ESV, Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace of God has appeared, brining salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age (which goes along with what you are saying watchman), waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession who are zealous for good works". Emphasis added.

I do not buy into the idea that we are never going to be sin free so therefore we just don't deal with sin in our lives. But I do not buy into the idea that my aim, my goal in life is to live a sinless life to please God. The writer of Hebrews did not say that 'with sin it is impossible to please God', and he didn't say 'without faith and a sinless life it is impossible to please God'.

God trains us. I did a study of this very topic this morning. What is implied when it says that the grace of God is "training" us? Well, in order for training to occur, there has to be one who trains and the one who needs training. There has to be one who knows what to train in and one who wants to be trained. Training does not require pre-knowledge, but it does require desire, which is equal to love. There is more to this than what I just wrote down, but I think you understand where I am coming from.

I believe with all my heart that we are sinless when we hide in Christ. It is only when we step out of that relationship that we 'miss the mark'. If we reside in faith, which by its very definition is obedience, then we live sinless lives.

 

[Nathan]

Watchman,
When we become a Christian, we are a new creation, Christ in us, though we may struggle with the flesh, this struggle does not change who we are. Paul wrote:
Corinthians 6:12 (American Standard Version)
12 "All things are lawful for me; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful for me; but I will not be brought under the power of any."
For the believer, the motivations are to not be controlled by the flesh, but by the Spirit. The danger arises, when the believer finds himself in one or the other of these positions; the first is that he can sin at will, without consequence and the second is that he believes he actually can go through life and not fall victim to the "flesh". I guess there is also a third position, which is those who trust in their ability to be sinless, instead of the finish work of Jesus in their stead.
Grace, Bubba

This seems to be one that people have the hardest time with, and can be the most deciving of the three. It is very easy to see from the Word that we cannot sin at will, and even if a person does, the blatent words on the pages will convict him sometime or another. The other, going through life not falling victim is easy to address because we have an advasary that loves to get his digs in, and pride allways goes before a good hard fall.

The third is what I would say Paul refers to in the end of Titus 3:9-11, ESV "But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless (did he just really say that about the law!?). As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." Emphasis added.

See, when a person does not have faith, the faith of Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe, and when that person trusts in the faith that he can be sinless in his ability, then there is no getting through to him. Well, thats not true entirely, but it is hard.

 

[watchman F]

Originally Posted by watchman F
Scripture also tell us to make no provision for our flesh.
Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

If our goal is any but living a sinless life (because of our love for Christ of course) Then we are making provision for our flesh.

If we claim we cannot not sin because we are human and all humans sin, then that is doing exactly what God through Pauyl tells us not to do, making provision for our flesh

.

Watchman,
When we become a Christian, we are a new creation, Christ in us, though we may struggle with the flesh, this struggle does not change who we are. Paul wrote:
Corinthians 6:12 (American Standard Version)
12 "All things are lawful for me; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful for me; but I will not be brought under the power of any."
For the believer, the motivations are to not be controlled by the flesh, but by the Spirit. The danger arises, when the believer finds himself in one or the other of these positions; the first is that he can sin at will, without consequence and the second is that he believes he actually can go through life and not fall victim to the "flesh". I guess there is also a third position, which is those who trust in their ability to be sinless, instead of the finish work of Jesus in their stead.
Grace, Bubba

I totally agree, it is only through thre finished work of Christ, Him living in us, through us, and for us that we are able to walk free from our flesh, sin, and death.

 

[Nathan]

Ahhhhh.....Perfection!!!

 

[watchman F]

See, when a person does not have faith, the faith of Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe, and when that person trusts in the faith that he can be sinless in his ability, then there is no getting through to him. Well, thats not true entirely, but it is hard.

Indeed, The first step to being perfected is to realize it is not us, but Christ in us and that we on our own would never be able to accomplish anything, only by the grace of God working in us and for us enables us to accomplish perfection. Even then it is not us, but the Holy Spirit working in us that accomplishes this, yet when we get to Heaven we get the credit. Good deal huh?

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Expanding on that thought made in Philipians 3:3 for one second Lue Engle quotes Mike Bickle in Lue's book ''Nasirite DNA''
''Nazitires who are not living with intimacy with the Lord also face the danger of self righteousness when they rejoice in their commentment to the Lord Jesus and not in Jesus Himself. Just like the Pharisee who despised the tax collector, in Luke 18:9, we will admire our own dedication while looking down on that of others. Too often we judge other by their actions, while judging ourselves by our intentions. The heart of those who rejoice in their own stregnth will end up in one of two pitfalls: either arrogance of accomplishment, like this pharisee, or self hatred as an unworthy son. Only embracing the grace of God to us with humility can help us avoid this''

We not only have to realize that it is God working in us and not our capabilities working for themselves, but we must serve God to the best of our ability out a pure heart of love growing in intimacy with Him, and not our of religious duty to be able to become what God wants us to become in Him while remaining completely humble.

Too many times we who are mature and doing all the right things look down on those that are doing the best they can while stumbling through lifes pit falls. The Church in the only Army I know that kills their own wounded. Rather than putting the finishing blow on someone who is struggling we should reach out to the in the spirit of meekness to help restore them to God.

Galatians 6
1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

We are to love one another restoring one another knowing that we ourselves may also one day may fall into temptation. I believe we can live sinlessly, but that doesn't necessarily mean we will, and when we mess up God is not angry, He loves us and wants to restore us. We as fellow believers need to have this same heart toward one another, not judging and nic picking everything we each do.

 

[Nathan]

We are to love one another restoring one another knowing that we ourselves may also one day may fall into temptation. I believe we can live sinlessly, but that doesn't necessarily mean we will, and when we mess up God is not angry, He loves us and wants to restore us. We as fellow believers need to have this same heart toward one another, not judging and nic picking everything we each do.

Very well said. So many people think that God is angry because they don't understand what He is trying to do in us. People have a hard time discerning the difference between "restoring" and "condemning". I think that as long as we are being led by the Spirit, then we are going to be restoring, rather than condemning. It is when we step out of the light, thinking we have a light of our own, and try to make people see what there doing, that we hurt rather than love.

Perfection can never be brought about by the will of man.

 

[watchman F]

Very well said. So many people think that God is angry because they don't understand what He is trying to do in us. People have a hard time discerning the difference between "restoring" and "condemning". I think that as long as we are being led by the Spirit, then we are going to be restoring, rather than condemning. It is when we step out of the light, thinking we have a light of our own, and try to make people see what there doing, that we hurt rather than love.

Agreed

Perfection can never be brought about by the will of man.

This is absolutely true although it ought to be our will because it is the will of the Father that we become sinless.

 

[elijah23]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I am just curious how would you all explain this command of Jesus Christ away? Or do you believe this is attainable?

It is attainable.

 

[Cornelius]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I am just curious how would you all explain this command of Jesus Christ away? Or do you believe this is attainable?

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


"Hath" is past tense. So we have to take this by faith, until it manifests. We cannot attain , but He obviously can. All depends on "whom" you depend on ; yourself or Jesus.

 

[watchman F]

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


"Hath" is past tense. So we have to take this by faith, until it manifests. We cannot attain , but He obviously can. All depends on "whom" you depend on ; yourself or Jesus.

Absolutely it is Christ who sdantifies, and Christ who perfects us. We must simply walk in the promise.

 

[walter]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I am just curious how would you all explain this command of Jesus Christ away? Or do you believe this is attainable?

If Jesus said it it is attainable. I am saddened by so many people who profess a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof.
We are to strive toward perfection and yes, it IS attainable if the Lord told us to be perfect. Either we believe Jesus or we don't.
I'm not perfect yet but I definitely know I will be. If not Jesus is a liar. As far as it not being attainable until death, I'd like to know where God ever said that.

 

[watchman F]

If Jesus said it it is attainable. I am saddened by so many people who profess a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof.
We are to strive toward perfection and yes, it IS attainable if the Lord told us to be perfect. Either we believe Jesus or we don't.
I'm not perfect yet but I definitely know I will be. If not Jesus is a liar. As far as it not being attainable until death, I'd like to know where God ever said that.

Amen walter you are spot on!!!!!

 

[Nathan]

If Jesus said it it is attainable. I am saddened by so many people who profess a form of Godliness but deny the power thereof.
We are to strive toward perfection and yes, it IS attainable if the Lord told us to be perfect. Either we believe Jesus or we don't.
I'm not perfect yet but I definitely know I will be. If not Jesus is a liar. As far as it not being attainable until death, I'd like to know where God ever said that.

I agree with watchman, very simple and well said. I do think that there are times when we say something, not really saying what we mean, but in trying to express our thoughts we do not do it clear enough.

What I mean is that just because someone says that "yes, we can be perfect, one day in the kingdom" does not mean that the person does not believe it will not happen while they are here on the earth. I think what we should all be weary about is those who say they ARE perfect, and those who say they will NEVER will be perfect.

One side thinks to highly of themselves; 1Corinthians 10:12

The other side does not think highly enough about God; 1Thessalonians 5:24