Perfection?

[watchman F]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I am just curious how would you all explain this command of Jesus Christ away? Or do you believe this is attainable?

 

[coffeelover]

I don't know if explain it away is a good phrase. I take it to mean to emulate Jesus, but IMHO perfection is unattainable.

 

[PouringRain]

I believe that we should strive towards "perfection" and also that God "perfects" us as he places us in the fires of life. But, I do not believe that man can reach perfection until after death. So, from what I believe, perfection is a process. When the verse tells us to be perfect, it is a striving towards that perfection. A striving to be like God. We talk about how man should be able to look at us and see God in us/ through us. We strive towards being able to love as God does.

It is like when we read in 1 John that "perfect love casteth out all fear." The concept is the same to me as above. God is love, God's love is perfect. We must strive towards having the same love as God, and the same character as God-- but essentially we are not God. Perfection comes after death. On earth we must strive for it.

I realize that some will argue against me claiming I am preaching a message of salvation by works, and in fact I am not. Salvation is only by faith, but faith without works is dead. When I look at things it is this way: a Christian is a follower of Christ; therefore, if one is a Christian then one will follow Christ and will produce good fruits. We are not bound/ enslaved by the law, but we are instructed to follow the law out of our love. (Love the Lord your God and Love they neighbor as thyself-- contains the law within it.) Through our love/ actions we obey the "law." In this, we strive towards being perfect as God is perfect.

 

[watchman F]

Scripture tells us two things (amoung many more)
#1 God wants us to live sinlessly
#2 He has empowered us to do so here in this life.

We can indeed live a sinless life through the indwellment of Jesus Christ and the empowerment of the holy Spirit

 

[Pard]

We can become sinless, and we will become perfect through the Lord Jesus... just not until we are raised from these sinful bodies

 

[Tina]

.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

I am just curious how would you all explain this command of Jesus Christ away? Or do you believe this is attainable?

"Perfect" (Gr. teleios) often occurs in a relative sense in the New Testament, and translators sometimes render it "mature" (e.g., 1 Cor. 14:20; Eph. 4:13; Heb. 5:14; 6:1). However it also means perfect. In this context it refers to perfect regarding conformity to God's requirements, which Jesus just clarified. He wanted His disciples to press on to perfect righteousness, a goal that no sinful human can attain but toward which all should move (cf. v. 3; 6:12). They should not view righteousness as simply external, as the scribes and Pharisees did, but they should pursue inner moral purity and love. This is only appropriate since their heavenly Father is indeed perfect.

Perfection here refers to uprightness and sincerity of character with the thought of maturity in godliness or attaining the goal of conformity to the character of God. While sinless perfection is impossible, godliness, in its biblical concept, is attainable.

Good children in the ancient East normally imitated their fathers. Jesus advocated the same of His disciples. In giving this summary command Jesus was alluding to Leviticus 19:2, which He modified slightly in view of Deuteronomy 18:13.

In Jesus' perspective, the debates concerning law and tradition are all to
be resolved by the proper application of one basic principle, or better, of a
single attitude of the heart, namely, utter devotion to God and radical love
of the neighbor (v. 5:48; 22:37-40).

While we are definitely to strive for perfection in our conformity to the will of God (cf. 1 Pet. 1:15-16), we must beware of the perils associated with perfectionism. Striving for an unattainable goal is difficult for anyone, but it is particularly frustrating for people with obsessive-compulsive personalities, people who tend to be perfectionists. In one sense a perfectionist is someone who strives for perfection, but in another sense it is someone who is obsessed with perfection. Such a person, for example, constantly cleans up his or her environment, straightens things that are not exactly straight, and corrects people for even minor mistakes. This type of striving for perfection is not godly. God is not constantly "on the backs" of people who are less than perfect, and we should not be, either other people or ourselves. In fact, He gives us a great deal of "space" and is patient with us, allowing us to correct our own mistakes before He steps in to do so (cf. 1 Cor. 11:31). It is possible for disciples of Jesus to become so obsessed with our own holiness that we shift our focus from Christ to ourselves. Rather we should keep our eyes on Jesus (Heb. 12:1-3) more than on ourselves and on being perfect.


Source : http://www.soniclight.com/constable/not ... atthew.pdf

 

[watchman F]

We can become sinless, and we will become perfect through the Lord Jesus... just not until we are raised from these sinful bodies

According to scripture God is able to perfect us here in this life time.

 

[watchman F]

He wanted His disciples to press on to perfect righteousness, a goal that no sinful human can attain

Except by the grace and empowerment of God.

 

[Vic C.]

Correct Rain, it is a process and as we all should know, it's called, sanctification. It's progressive and it's something we should constantly pursue. Santification will be solidified when we finally achieve our glorified bodies when we are transformed, as Pard already said.

 

[watchman F]

Scripture that tells us to live sinless lives
Matthew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Rom 6:20-22
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Ephesians 4:17-32
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;
19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But you have not so learned Christ,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Do Not Grieve the Spirit
25 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.
26 “Be angry, and do not sin†do not let the sun go down on your wrath,
27 nor give place to the devil.
28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.
29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice.
32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

Ephesians 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light

1st Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from every form of evil.

1st John 2
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1st John 3
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.




Scriptures that say we are able to live sinlessly
Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

1st Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil


Jude 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless, Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy



Scripture for walking in the Spirit.
Romans 6:1-4
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Galatians 5:16
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

1st John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.



Scriptures that tell us to be humble while pursuing perfection
Phil 3
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

1st Corinthians 9
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

1st Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

1st Corinthians 15:31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily


All thing are possible with God
Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.â€

Ephesians 3:20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,






So back to the question How does God accomplish this in us? By showing us exactly who Christ is, and who we are. So when you ask yourself who is Christ and who we are you will probably come up with many answers. Christ is King of Kings, Lord of Lord, our Savior, the only true and righteous Judge, the almighty God these are all true. We are the redeemed, the Church, His body, a royal priesthood ect..., and these are all true, but the revelation that will truly change your life if you are able to fully comprehend the ramifications of this truth, is the 'Bridal Paradigm''. When we see Christ as our beloved Bridegroom, and we as His cherished Bride perfect in His sight, we will undoubtedly rid ourselves of all sin, and rededicate our lives to loving, and serving our Groom. When we come to the realization of the undying, unending, unexplainable love Christ has for us, we will love Him and others like we did not know was possible.
Ephesians 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

The Bible says in in 2nd Corinthians 6:14 to not be unequally yoked. Do you think Jesus is returning of an unequally yoke Bride? No, and He is not sitting in Heaven waiting for you to get your act straight before He returns. If you are not equally yokled to Christ when He returns you will not be apart of His Bride.
''Glory, is accomplishing what God has put us here on Earth to do" What God has created us to do or become is an equally yoked Bride for Christ, and to be equally yoked with Christ we must become perfected, and sinless in every way.
Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


Even though it is Christ that works through us, and we can do nothing in ourselves it is still us who must allow Him to work in us therefore partnering with Christ cleansing ourself from all unrightouesness
1st Corinthians 15
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

2nd Corinthians 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Galtians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust.

Philippians 2
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1st John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
See even though it is Christ that works in us, but it is we who must remain stedfast, crucify our flesh, making manifest our Savior, working out our own salvation, purifying ourselves, cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God, making ourselves ready for our Bridegroom King.



Jesus is returning for a perfected, equally yoked Bride. Will we make ourselves ready?
Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

[watchman F]

Scripture clearly tells us God can perfect us in this life. The only reason I can think of for you all to not accept this scriptural truth is that you must believe your flesh to be more powerful than God Himself.

 

[jasoncran]

Scripture clearly tells us God can perfect us in this life. The only reason I can think of for you all to not accept this scriptural truth is that you must believe your flesh to be more powerful than God Himself.

then why aren't you able to do that which jesus says also raise the dead and other works as well?
its the self same power.

 

[watchman F]

Scripture clearly tells us God can perfect us in this life. The only reason I can think of for you all to not accept this scriptural truth is that you must believe your flesh to be more powerful than God Himself.

then why aren't you able to do that which jesus says also raise the dead and other works as well?
its the self same power.

That is right the church is supposed to be able to do everything Jesus did. Why do you think we are not able to walk in this promise of God? Why do you think most believers live so far under the bar?

 

[jasoncran]

[quote="watchman F":jnvdaeu8]Scripture clearly tells us God can perfect us in this life. The only reason I can think of for you all to not accept this scriptural truth is that you must believe your flesh to be more powerful than God Himself.

then why aren't you able to do that which jesus says also raise the dead and other works as well?
its the self same power.

That is right the church is supposed to be able to do everything Jesus did. Why do you think we are not able to walk in this promise of God? Why do you think most believers live so far under the bar?[/quote:jnvdaeu8]
because partly even the apostles werent perfected, they did miracles but not the sign gifts.(theres a difference)

paul never said that he attained perfection did he?

he strove for that prize, what was that he was striving for? cant be salvation since he already knew that he was heaven bound and said that numerously.

 

[GojuBrian]

Scripture clearly tells us God can perfect us in this life. The only reason I can think of for you all to not accept this scriptural truth is that you must believe your flesh to be more powerful than God Himself.

Don't take your misunderstanding of the scriptures to mean we lack faith.

;)

 

[Tina]

.

That is right the church is supposed to be able to do everything Jesus did. Why do you think we are not able to walk in this promise of God? Why do you think most believers live so far under the bar?

If you think that God only uses "perfect" people, then He will never use anyone in this world ......

 

[watchman F]

That is right the church is supposed to be able to do everything Jesus did. Why do you think we are not able to walk in this promise of God? Why do you think most believers live so far under the bar?

because partly even the apostles werent perfected, they did miracles but not the sign gifts.(theres a difference)

God did perfect the apostles

paul never said that he attained perfection did he?

As a matter of fact He did.
Did Paul attain a level of sinlessness?
1 Corinthians 11
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ
He would not have said to follow him as he follows Christ if he wasn't following Christ perfectly.
2nd Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
Paul tell us not to compare ourselves with each other, but to look at him as our example

he strove for that prize, what was that he was striving for? cant be salvation since he already knew that he was heaven bound and said that numerously.

Philippians 3
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Paul tells us to make example of him and others, so more than just he attained a state of sinlessness.

He hadn't attained the resurrection of the just because he had yet to endure until the end, not because he wasn't sinless. I believe he had attained a level sinlessness
Matthew 24
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Hebrews 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Here we see Paul stating that he had in effect attained.
2nd Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Living sinlessly for 1 or 5 or 10 or 20 does not atomatically give us eternal life remaining faith unto our death does. However living sinlessly is commandment from God to us. Furthermore God promises us that we are able to keep this command.

 

[watchman F]

Scripture clearly tells us God can perfect us in this life. The only reason I can think of for you all to not accept this scriptural truth is that you must believe your flesh to be more powerful than God Himself.

Don't take your misunderstanding of the scriptures to mean we lack faith.

;)

Actually it is your misunderstanding of scripture as well as your lack of faith that keeps you from attaining all God have for you.

God promises us through His word that we can defeat sin, if we look closely at the word of God. There are many many promises that deal with that fact.

We are told that "in every temptation, God will make a way of escape that we will be able to bear it".

God said "sin shall not have dominion over you".

I literally can list twenty more...reckon yourself dead unto sin and alive unto God ''praise be to God who always causes us to triumph in Christ Jesus,'' ''lead me not into temptation but deliver me from evil'' and so forth.

I firmly believe we have mistakenly missed why he has saved us (to set us free) "You shall call His name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins" (now, in this life) to preserve us blameless unto the coming of the Lord. In the Bible, we are told "He that commits sin is the servant of sin, and the servant abides not in the house forever. But whom the Son sets free is free indeed."


We are told by Jesus Himself "Without me, you can do nothing." yet in the writings of Paul we are told "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.". Is this perhaps what Jesus meant when he expressed his deep concern that "when the Son of man returns, will he find faith on the earth?" Do we believe (have faith in) these promises of God for our lives?

Personally speaking, the sins that make up my personal "Achilles heel", not unlike yours, are not small ones that God turns a blind eye at. However He has promised us freedom from these vices. I have found as that His promises are meant for even the most wretched...and they work. This faith of who we are in Christ is what constitutes our shield spoken of in Ephesians 6, "wherewith we shall quench ALL the fiery darts of the wicked one".

I hope this explanation at least opens up the door for dialog. I fully understand the potential for controversy with this teaching. It goes against all that we have been taught, that we slowly change from the old man to the new by a lifelong, never ending process. I believe we can reach a point of sinlessness where we truly do partake of the divine nature of Christ, able to fully escape the corruption of this world. I contend that the only way the process can work as God intends is when we obey him and believe that "you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit if the spirit dwells in you.", and that ''it is not we that live, but Christ that lives in us''

I believe that if we are truly experiencing the new covenant, then we will have complete victory over sin. To be a full grown son, we must be made free. I believe Jesus has made us free, all we must do now is walk in our freedom. When people say that we are not to make sin a habit, but yet everyone sins, and will not be completely freed from sin until the resurrection. They do not truly believe (have faith in the fact) that the Son can make us free indeed.

We are given the promise of freedom from sin how do we begin to walk in that freedom? By knowing Christ and who we are in Him and to Him.
2nd Peter 1
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[watchman F]

.

That is right the church is supposed to be able to do everything Jesus did. Why do you think we are not able to walk in this promise of God? Why do you think most believers live so far under the bar?

If you think that God only uses "perfect" people, then He will never use anyone in this world ......

Of course He doesn't. He perfects disfunctional people for His glory.

 

[jasoncran]

he didnt die being without sin then, so he and the others still werent perfect, you are in counfusion santification.

you claimed being totally sinless. then you now say that we can reach a certain level of sinless.

btw none of the santification process is the salvinic process, but rather evidenece of it. theres no such thing as being mored saved. the apostle james was the first to die. was he more saved then paul? or less?

yet the names of all the apostles are written on the foundation of the city of new jerusalem. same reward.