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Perfection?

jasoncran said:
so, when one is sinless then, when one sins by anger then that potential to sin isnt gone. did jesus ever actually have to fight really that hard not to sin?

jesus in his nature being GOD, have no potential to sin in him for if he did then god can and has thoughts of sinning.

the flesh wrapping around made Jesus see how we are tempted but being free from sin he had a choice and the will power to say no.

we sin all to easily, did the lord ever go opps. nothing caught him off guard. are we like that on this earth.
Jesus could have sinned, but lets not derail this thread with that discussion. However the same power that was in Christ that gave Him the power not to sin dwells in us.

Jesus said we could do everything He did and more, that would include not sinning.
 
jasoncran said:
when you claim that level of perfection to me a pentacostal, that means that you have the full nature of god in you and cant sin. if i strike you do you have to fight the tendency to punch back. christ didnt as he is GOD. he know that he came to die and be abused and so on.
I do have the nature of God/Christ in me, for I am a new man fashioned after righteousness.
Ephesians 4
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


I have the very mind of Christ
1st Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Further more i am field with the fullness of God
Ephesians 3
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
 
XTruth said:
TO Jason,

You are bringing up hard to know theologies.... Was it possible for Jesus to sin? I could respond to that, but that is not relevant to the clear scriptures that specifically tell us, Christians, to be perfect, sinless, blameless, faultless, pure, holy, righteous, innocent, clean, unblemished, etc. Some things are clear and not to be made so complicated. I live by the Word and all the ideas it relates. I conform my thinking to Scripture, not the other way around. Why do you have a hard time with the clear scriptures by insisting on basing your beliefs upon human reasoning? I have so many clear Scriptures on this, yet I know I only have a fraction. Would it help you to read them? If so, I will post them for you. The Word is the only way to conform your mind anyway, not my writings...
Wow, very well put. I couldn't have said it better myself.
 
no, you did. you say that we can become so christlike on this earth that we can be perfect, thus sin free.

not new theology at all just read my bible and logicaly think.

jesus was sin free, true but can we be that perfect. no. if we could then why did paul never mention that when he was writing letters.

the very fact that we are vulnerable and able to sin makes us unable to be that perfect on this earth.

so paul states that the immortal puts on immortality before we die?

why then does paul write about sins that so easily beset us."?

name one pastor since the apostles that did what you say?

name one. after all surely god is able to keep his own, and used them to put his word in order.
 
jasoncran said:
no, you did. you say that we can become so christlike on this earth that we can be perfect, thus sin free.

not new theology at all just read my bible and logicaly think.

jesus was sin free, true but can we be that perfect. no. if we could then why did paul never mention that when he was writing letters.
Paul did mention that in his letters. Many verses have already been given. However I will give one more.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Notice Paul said if you walk in the Spirit we WILL NOT fulfill the lust of our flesh
 
jasoncran said:
no, you did. you say that we can become so christlike on this earth that we can be perfect, thus sin free.

not new theology at all just read my bible and logicaly think.

jesus was sin free, true but can we be that perfect. no. if we could then why did paul never mention that when he was writing letters.

the very fact that we are vulnerable and able to sin makes us unable to be that perfect on this earth.

so paul states that the immortal puts on immortality before we die?

why then does paul write about sins that so easily beset us."?

name one pastor since the apostles that did what you say?

name one. after all surely god is able to keep his own, and used them to put his word in order.
As xtruth has pointed out, your belief is based in human philosophy, while ours is based in scripture
 
no, so why is that we haven heard of you doing these great things.
healing and raising the dead.

so i guess we only look at the bible and not to others who live it.
odd when pauls says to be ye an immator of him as he imitates christ.
he didnt say that we have to only look to the bible and imitate it. some are called to live holy and others will see that

do you disagree?

if so. why?

my pastor believes in divine healing and also sign gifts, who he lives determines whether or not i will accept his doctrine.

the same applies to some here.


a pentacostal that doesnt beleive in exposotion of the verses and bible itself, that strange.
 
Give me some time to find it, but Lewis made a very good point. Even the ability to repent shows that one is sinful, for the perfect person has no ability to repent.

"as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; "

And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

I always find it interesting when people claim that something is no of the Scripture, and yet those who KNEW Jesus did not know these things that they claim. Never once did Paul say we can obtain sinless perfection in this here life of flesh. It is only through death that sinless perfection can be achieved, and Scripture backs this up to the end.
 
Pard said:
Give me some time to find it, but Lewis made a very good point. Even the ability to repent shows that one is sinful, for the perfect person has no ability to repent.

"as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; "

[quote:2fxucayd]And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

I always find it interesting when people claim that something is no of the Scripture, and yet those who KNEW Jesus did not know these things that they claim. Never once did Paul say we can obtain sinless perfection in this here life of flesh. It is only through death that sinless perfection can be achieved, and Scripture backs this up to the end.[/quote:2fxucayd]
First, we are to live sinfree AFTER we repent, which in fact makes us sinfree (Rom.3:25).
Second, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE" ...this is the argument Paul gave the Jews in order to show them they weren't righteous by obeying the law, b/c (and this is 2 chapters later, same letter) ALL are born guilty (Rom.5:12-21).... I'll elaborate
a [As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one] Romans 3:10-18 have been taken from several Old Testament books on the same subject. Rom. 3:10-12 are from Ps. 14:2-3; 52:2-4; Eccl. 7:20. Rom. 3:13-18 are from Ps. 5:9-10; 10:7; 36:1-2; 140:3; Isa. 59:7-8.
b [There is none righteous] Having stated (Rom. 3:9) that he had already proved both Jews and Gentiles to be under sin, he now proceeds to clinch this argument by the Jewish Scriptures which they could not deny.
c [righteous] No one is righteous in himself.

Rom.3:12
a [They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one] This is true of all people (Isa. 53:6; Rom. 1:21-32; 3:23; 5:12-21).


Have you not read that a Christian, who is walking after the Spirit in holiness, and not the flesh (Rom.8:1-13; Gal.5:16-26; 6:7-8), is as righteous and pure as Christ??? (1 Jn.3:2-7)

Haven't you read that we are to walk as Christ walked, which is w/o sin??? (1 Pt.2:21-22; 1 Jn.2:3-6)

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked

You also used Rom.7:18...
[will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not] I have a will, but it is so overpowered by the lusts of sin that I am helpless. My passion is stronger than my reason. My will, reason, understanding, and my conscience are on God's side and consent to His will and law, but my slavemaster will not consent for me to serve God or His law.

As stated a few pages ago, the experience of Rom. 7:7-24 was not Paul's at the time of the writing of Romans, for several reasons:
1. Paul had no condemnation (Rom. 8:1).
2. Paul was free from the law of sin (Rom. 8:2).
3. Paul was free from eternal death (Rom. 8:2).
4. Paul's sin condemned in his flesh (Rom. 8:3).
5. Paul was fulfilled righteousness (Rom. 8:4).
6. Paul had life and peace (Rom. 8:6).
7. Paul was Spirit-filled (Rom. 8:9-11).
8. Paul's body was dead to sin (Rom. 8:10).
9. Paul's flesh was crucified (Rom. 8:12-13).
10. Paul was walking in the Spirit and not after the flesh (Rom. 8:1-4; Gal. 5:16-26).
Paul was reflecting back to his experience while under the law of Moses (Rom.7:7-24), unlike now in his experience of being in Christ and following the Spirit (Rom.8:1-13; Gal.5:16-26; 6:7-8) ...notice the word "therefore" in between to two experiences of Paul (Rom.8:1).
 
jasoncran said:
all i want is one example of TODAY who has done this and where i can study his or her testimony. should be simple.

You don't understand Scripture on the matter. We come to Christ as sinners, He takes ALL our sins away so we are sinless. Clearly, we must be sinless. After that, go and sin no more. There is power by the Holy Spirit on earth, Christ in Heaven, and all our spritual gifts and weapons to go and sin no more being perfect in conformity to the gospel... to righteousness. IF... you do sin, and that is NEVER quoted "when," but IF you do, then repent so that you can be sinless again. God will not take the soul to eternal life who dies in sin.
 
XTruth said:
jasoncran said:
all i want is one example of TODAY who has done this and where i can study his or her testimony. should be simple.

You don't understand Scripture on the matter. We come to Christ as sinners, He takes ALL our sins away so we are sinless. Clearly, we must be sinless. After that, go and sin no more. There is power by the Holy Spirit on earth, Christ in Heaven, and all our spritual gifts and weapons to go and sin no more being perfect in conformity to the gospel... to righteousness. IF... you do sin, and that is NEVER quoted "when," but IF you do, then repent so that you can be sinless again. God will not take the soul to eternal life who dies in sin.
name me one THAT HAS and is doing this and preaches this.

there's gottta be a perfect and sinless saint by now.surely you believe this yet you cant show me one pastor in person that i can watch.

i know and listen to some serious miracle workin individuals down through the years, and none of them say we can be sin free and without any inkling of never sinning again. but rather that we grow in grace and become christ like.

google
kp yohanlon as he is a missionary and has been persucted for the sake of christ and prays for hours and yet never says hes perfect.
 
jasoncran said:
XTruth said:
jasoncran said:
all i want is one example of TODAY who has done this and where i can study his or her testimony. should be simple.

You don't understand Scripture on the matter. We come to Christ as sinners, He takes ALL our sins away so we are sinless. Clearly, we must be sinless. After that, go and sin no more. There is power by the Holy Spirit on earth, Christ in Heaven, and all our spritual gifts and weapons to go and sin no more being perfect in conformity to the gospel... to righteousness. IF... you do sin, and that is NEVER quoted "when," but IF you do, then repent so that you can be sinless again. God will not take the soul to eternal life who dies in sin.
name me one THAT HAS and is doing this and preaches this.

there's gottta be a perfect and sinless saint by now.surely you believe this yet you cant show me one pastor in person that i can watch.

i know and listen to some serious miracle workin individuals down through the years, and none of them say we can be sin free and without any inkling of never sinning again. but rather that we grow in grace and become christ like.

google
kp yohanlon as he is a missionary and has been persucted for the sake of christ and prays for hours and yet never says hes perfect.

You don't seem to understand. When I stand before God one day, I will be responsible for what I have done w/ His Word. I can't correct the foul doctrines of others who refuse to see that we are to cease from sin and be holy, as God is holy. Has anyone ever repented and gone on to sin no more, not even once, who live for many years. I don't know, so I can't say. I can only say that multitudes have repented if they have sinned, therefore going on to eternal life when they die.

Do you admit that you become sinnless after you repent? I think you agree, but then why do you think its okay to go and get more???
 
I'll show you the opposite from Paul and other writers of the Word that were all inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so. I'm passing over clear examples and implications for the sake of debating Scriptures you will wrestle with... I'll give more clear commands instead. Mold your belief to the clear Scripture you are about to read, not preconceived notions, doctrines of man, or human reasonings and philosophy.

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear (Isa.59:2)."
[iniquities have separated between you and your God] This is the only thing that separates from God and causes Him to turn His face away from men. Separation from Him is spiritual death in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-15).

Lets start with the Old Testament...Not only does the New Testament teach that people should not sin (Rom. 6:16-23; 8:1-13; 1Jn. 2:1-2), but the Old Testament required the same of Israel.

"And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not (Ex.20:20)."

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book (Ex.32:33)."

"Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah (Ps.4:4)."

"Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul (Eze.3:21)."

"... the soul that sinneth, it shall die (Eze.18:4, 20)."

"Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth (Eze.33:12; 18:24-26)."

"And thou shalt know that thy tabernacle shall be in peace; and thou shalt visit thy habitation, and shalt not sin (Job 5:24)."

"If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity (Job 10:14)."

"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee (Jn.5:14)."

"She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more (Jn.8:11)."

"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin (Jn.8:34)."

"16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom.6:16-23)?"

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame(1 Cor.15:34)."

"Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath (Eph.4:26)."

"Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear (1 Tim.5:20)."

"Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren (Jas.1:15-16)."

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth (1 Pt.2:21-22)."

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin (1 Pt.4:1)."

"Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children (2 Pt.2:14)."

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 Jn.2:1)."

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked (1 Jn.2:3-6)."

"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure (1 Jn.3:3)."

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (1 Jn.3:4)."

"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother (1 Jn.3:6-10)."

"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 Jn.5:18)."

"Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them (Rom.1:29-32)."

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-10)."

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal.5:19-21)."

"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him (Col.3:5-10)."

"But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them (Eph.5:3-7)."

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death (Rev.21:7-8)."

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love (Eph.1:4)."


"Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor.1:8)."

"And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless (Lk.1:6)."

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world (Phil.2:15)."

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thes.5:23)."

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless (2 Pt.3:14)."

"In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight(Col.1:22)."

"To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints (1 Thes.3:13)."

"Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe (1 Thes.2:10)."

"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach (1 Tim.3:2)."

"And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless (1 Tim.3:10)."

"And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless (1 Tim.5:7)."

"If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly(Tit.1:6)."

"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish (Eph.5:27)."

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Cor.3:16-17; Mat.15:18)."

"For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth (Lev.11:44)."

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy (1 Pt. 1:13-16)."

"Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled (Heb.12:15)."

"Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy (Rev.3:4)."

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world (Jas.1:27)."

"For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens (Heb.7:26)." Christians are to walk in Jesus' example of sinlessness (1 Pt.2:21-22; 1 Jn.2:1-6).

"Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD. 2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart. 3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways (Ps.119:1-3)."

"Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted (Gal.6:1)."

"And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God (Rev.14:5)." Before the throne or here and now, we are all told to be without fault.

"And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 23-24)."

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God (Rom.12:1-2)."

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all (Jas.2:10)."

"That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Tim.6:14)."

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still (Rev.22:11)."


There are more, but if this does not reveal the sinlessness that God requires, then I don't know what will... notice that I just said REQUIRES, not desires.
 
no, i am not saying that, but when you imply sinless that means to me unable to sin as that desire to do it(sin nature) is gone. ie when we see a good look women there no struggle not to look, or when we get hit no anger to hit back. that we always will get it right.

thats what you imply. a change of heart must be . but some sins are soo strong that it takes time for them be freed
ever struggle with porn?
wanting to have sex with men
curse.
anger?

some things were taken instantly other i struggle with.

i will put it this way ever clean a dirty oily, sludgly engine part. take a few tries to get it perfectly clean.

how much more so with our sinful tendencies. and why is it easier for us to sin then for us to pray?
 
i know these verses.

but name one person again and lastly that has reached this.

simple question or is it only xtruth that has had this divine understanding.

surely God has raised men up that have done this. i want to meet one and see for myself.that to me isnt unreasonable.

to me that like saying i heard about jesus to a christian and then say show me by your life that he is real to you. and you saying that its in the bible without showing me or living the example of what christ commands.
 
jasoncran said:
no, i am not saying that, but when you imply sinless that means to me unable to sin as that desire to do it(sin nature) is gone. ie when we see a good look women there no struggle not to look, or when we get hit no anger to hit back. that we always will get it right.

thats what you imply. a change of heart must be . but some sins are soo strong that it takes time for them be freed
ever struggle with porn?
wanting to have sex with men
curse.
anger?

some things were taken instantly other i struggle with.

i will put it this way ever clean a dirty oily, sludgly engine part. take a few tries to get it perfectly clean.

how much more so with our sinful tendencies. and why is it easier for us to sin then for us to pray?

Some are delivered from ALL their addictions, some aren't; though, all are forgiven of all their sins who repent. I was delivered of MANY addictions.... but I actually quit fighting the flesh desires and the temptations from the devil about 2 yrs later. I flirted w/ porn, became an addiction.

For those who have addictions... better fight it and bring it under submission. Like I've said, we have help and authority. If you do fall due to addiction, better repent after every time!!! Bible is clear, we ARE TO SIN NO MORE, NOT THAT IT BECOMES IMPOSSIBLE, did you really think I was ever saying that it becomes impossible??
 
jasoncran said:
i know these verses.

but name one person again and lastly that has reached this.

simple question or is it only xtruth that has had this divine understanding.

surely God has raised men up that have done this. i want to meet one and see for myself.that to me isnt unreasonable.

to me that like saying i heard about jesus to a christian and then say show me by your life that he is real to you. and you saying that its in the bible without showing me or living the example of what christ commands.
You clearly don't KNOW these verses, b/c you haven't understood them. You have merely heard them, or read them
 
XTruth said:
We come to Christ as sinners
He takes ALL our sins away so we are sinless. Clearly, we must be sinless
IF... you do sin, and that is NEVER quoted "when," but IF you do, then repent so that you can be sinless again.

I broke it up into the steps...

So when we repent we are sinless... UNTIL we sin again?

Even if there is no "when" but instead it says "if" that "if" implies the ABILITY to sin still... that alone makes us sinners still. sinLESS means that we can no longer sin. Everybody Christian on this board acknowledges that we go without sin in between the times that we do sin... That is a given, even the atheists will agree to that!

So you basically stated that we have been right all along and that you are looking at the glass different than we are... :shrug
 
you claim that being sinless, meaning that is sinfree.

so if that said person dies with that sin in hand what then, he prayed , fasted, cried out for deliverance
yet none was given.

i have been that person, though i'm very much alive, i watched porn, repented, sin again, repented and again, and again

so was i lying to god each time? he knew i cried out. i got so frustrated that at times i gave up.
 
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