Perfection?

[XTruth]

We come to Christ as sinners

He takes ALL our sins away so we are sinless. Clearly, we must be sinless

[quote:2tjfrr1x]IF... you do sin, and that is NEVER quoted "when," but IF you do, then repent so that you can be sinless again.

I broke it up into the steps...

So when we repent we are sinless... UNTIL we sin again?

Even if there is no "when" but instead it says "if" that "if" implies the ABILITY to sin still... that alone makes us sinners still. sinLESS means that we can no longer sin. Everybody Christian on this board acknowledges that we go without sin in between the times that we do sin... That is a given, even the atheists will agree to that!

So you basically stated that we have been right all along and that you are looking at the glass different than we are... [/quote:2tjfrr1x]


Not at all. No, we are not saying the same thing. You believe that there is no victory over sin, that we are all still basically sinners... like we sin every day and don't even know it. I can't find that in the Bible.

I believe that we are told to sin no more and that is the perfection being spoken of. We are to conform ourselves to the Word of God. Disobedience to our gospel is not conformity. I believe that we can go one and never sin again after we come to Christ. These are what the long list of Scriptures seems to be saying w/o any gray in it at all according to the eyes I have that can see.

I also don't believe your definition of sinless. The ability to sin does not make you a sinner. That would make all on earth still sinners, and you know that no sinner has inheritance in the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21). I do believe that we can sin again, thus all the warnings and commands not to give in to that, which by doing so is following the authority of Satan. If you are following Satan, then you have stepped off the narrow path of following Jesus and you must repent in order to get back on that path. You are either in sin or in Christ, not both at the same time.

 

[XTruth]

you claim that being sinless, meaning that is sinfree.

so if that said person dies with that sin in hand what then, he prayed , fasted, cried out for deliverance
yet none was given.

i have been that person, though i'm very much alive, i watched porn, repented, sin again, repented and again, and again

so was i lying to god each time? he knew i cried out. i got so frustrated that at times i gave up.

I'm not able to come to a logical conclusion as to what you are asking...or maybe just claiming.

I think you are asking that if a person sins, will they go to hell even if they had repented. Please varify. But if that is the statement/question, then no, that was never said in Scripture. If you repent you will be forgiven from all unrighteousness, which of course was written to Christians who had repented at least once b4 (1 Jn.1:9).

Flip side, if a person dies with unrepented sin, then yes, that soul is lost forever w/ the unrighteous. Unrighteousness makes one unrighteous... thats just what sin does.... Christianity 101. If it was a snake it would've bit. And no one who dies unrighteous will ever be righteous, much less enter the gates of the city of God (Rev.21:7-8, 27; 22:11, 14-15).

 

[Pard]

First, I'd appreciate it if you did not try to tell me what I believe...

Especially since you just said something I agree with. Perhaps you and WM are not in agreement, because he literally, has never said what you just said... I think, like I said before, we are talking about the same glass but in two different ways.

I don't agree with that second paragraph, well not entirely, but I'm not going into that, it's not part of this topic.

May I point you to something I have been saying the whole time? Perfect is not the correct translation of the word "teleios"

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/5046.htm

It is often translated to "perfect" however there is a more proper translation, and you will find, in talking to Greek Orthodox, that they see it as meaning "complete" or "mature" rather than perfect.

 

[XTruth]

First, I'd appreciate it if you did not try to tell me what I believe...

Especially since you just said something I agree with. Perhaps you and WM are not in agreement, because he literally, has never said what you just said... I think, like I said before, we are talking about the same glass but in two different ways.

I don't agree with that second paragraph, well not entirely, but I'm not going into that, it's not part of this topic.

May I point you to something I have been saying the whole time? Perfect is not the correct translation of the word "teleios"

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/5046.htm

It is often translated to "perfect" however there is a more proper translation, and you will find, in talking to Greek Orthodox, that they see it as meaning "complete" or "mature" rather than perfect.

Whoa,
Hold the offense. I can only base what I believe you are saying by what I read. If I got it wrong, then correct me. I'm perfectly ok w/ that.

As for what Watcher believes, I haven't read anything that seemed to contradict what I am saying... Fun fact- see how you have claimed to know what we bekieve... thats just how these things work. If you are wrong in what I believe, I'll tell you.

I've also already posted the correct translation of "perfect"... twice I think.

[perfect] Greek: teleios (GSN-<G5046>), complete in conformity to God's laws. True definition is "complete," but in view of all the things Jesus claims a Christian must be in order to be complete.... It is even more correct a translation to say we are to be complete in conformity to God's laws... which is the biblical definition of the Word perfect. We are to be perfect, which finds no room to sin and think it won't make you guilty again. That's what sin makes one... guilty. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law (1 Jn.3:4).

 

[jasoncran]

xtruth, i am simply asking has anyone on this earth TODAY met that standard you claim.
somebody got to be that holy if what you say is true, unless you are also denying the fact that God keeps remnants that dont bow to the will of men nor satan.

 

[Pard]

xtruth, i am simply asking has anyone on this earth TODAY met that standard you claim.
somebody got to be that holy if what you say is true, unless you are also denying the fact that God keeps remnants that dont bow to the will of men nor satan.

I think that he has met this standard today and so have you, because from what I gather he is saying the periods in between the time that you repent and then sin again is when you are sinless

 

[watchman F]

Give me some time to find it, but Lewis made a very good point. Even the ability to repent shows that one is sinful, for the perfect person has no ability to repent.

"as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; "

[quote:2ll31ksf]And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

I always find it interesting when people claim that something is no of the Scripture, and yet those who KNEW Jesus did not know these things that they claim. Never once did Paul say we can obtain sinless perfection in this here life of flesh. It is only through death that sinless perfection can be achieved, and Scripture backs this up to the end.[/quote:2ll31ksf]Your argument is invalid, because no one ever claim that we were born [perfect as Christ was or that we remain perfect after birth or that we are perfect the moment we get saved. What i am saying is that God not only demands us to live sinlessly, but that HE can perfect us after salvation if we allow Him. Scripture supports this view. The idea that our flesh somehow is stronger than God is idolistic at best.

 

[watchman F]

double post*

 

[watchman F]

I always find it interesting when people claim that something is no of the Scripture, and yet those who KNEW Jesus did not know these things that they claim. Never once did Paul say we can obtain sinless perfection in this here life of flesh. It is only through death that sinless perfection can be achieved, and Scripture backs this up to the end.

What I find odd is that this claim is still being made. It has been scripturally refuted many time. There has been ample scripture given that shows Paul did indeed say we could live sinlessly. You as a student of the N.T. cannot see this pard? I am surprised by that.

 

[watchman F]

no, i am not saying that, but when you imply sinless that means to me unable to sin as that desire to do it(sin nature) is gone. ie when we see a good look women there no struggle not to look, or when we get hit no anger to hit back. that we always will get it right.

That is not what scripture teaches. Of course we are able to sin, and we willcontinue to be tempted, even Jesus was tempted. However through the empowerment of the Holy spirit we are not able to say no to temptation and remain sinless.

thats what you imply. a change of heart must be . but some sins are soo strong that it takes time for them be freed
ever struggle with porn?
wanting to have sex with men
curse.
anger?

I do not struggle with any of these.

 

[watchman F]

I broke it up into the steps...

So when we repent we are sinless... UNTIL we sin again?

Even if there is no "when" but instead it says "if" that "if" implies the ABILITY to sin still... that alone makes us sinners still. sinLESS means that we can no longer sin.

Now i see your problem. It is a matter of samantics and not substance. Sinless doesn't mean we can't sin, it means we wont sin. Even Jesus could have sinned, but rather than get into that discussion, i will ask you this. Was Adam a sinner before the fall or was he sinless? Before the fall he was sinless because he had not sin in his life. However we know he was able to sin because he eventually did. We are not saying that we can;t sin, we are saying that God is able to cause us not to sin. You should have been reading closer I have stated more that once that we are able to sin, and some may even decide to. however god''s word still remains true, and it tells us God can keep us from sinning.

Everybody Christian on this board acknowledges that we go without sin in between the times that we do sin... That is a given, even the atheists will agree to that!

The thing is scripture tells us God can keep us from sinning ever again

So you basically stated that we have been right all along and that you are looking at the glass different than we are...

Well if you do not believe God is able to perfect you then not only are not right but you oppose scripture. However i do see now that we are looking at the glass differently.

 

[watchman F]

Not at all. No, we are not saying the same thing. You believe that there is no victory over sin, that we are all still basically sinners... like we sin every day and don't even know it. I can't find that in the Bible.

I believe that we are told to sin no more and that is the perfection being spoken of. We are to conform ourselves to the Word of God. Disobedience to our gospel is not conformity. I believe that we can go one and never sin again after we come to Christ. These are what the long list of Scriptures seems to be saying w/o any gray in it at all according to the eyes I have that can see.

I also don't believe your definition of sinless. The ability to sin does not make you a sinner. That would make all on earth still sinners, and you know that no sinner has inheritance in the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21). I do believe that we can sin again, thus all the warnings and commands not to give in to that, which by doing so is following the authority of Satan. If you are following Satan, then you have stepped off the narrow path of following Jesus and you must repent in order to get back on that path. You are either in sin or in Christ, not both at the same time.

First, I'd appreciate it if you did not try to tell me what I believe...

Especially since you just said something I agree with. Perhaps you and WM are not in agreement, because he literally, has never said what you just said... I think, like I said before, we are talking about the same glass but in two different ways.

I don't agree with that second paragraph, well not entirely, but I'm not going into that, it's not part of this topic.

Actually i am total agreement with what xtruth has said above

May I point you to something I have been saying the whole time? Perfect is not the correct translation of the word "teleios"

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/5046.htm

It is often translated to "perfect" however there is a more proper translation, and you will find, in talking to Greek Orthodox, that they see it as meaning "complete" or "mature" rather than perfect.

This is irrelevant. the fact that teleios can be translated complete or mature as well as perfect doesn't change the many time scripture tells us
#1 to remain sinless
and
#2 That God can keep us sinless.

 

[watchman F]

My computer is on the frits, and cause another double post*

 

[Nathan]

What is "sin"?

 

[Bubba]

To miss the mark. Romans 3:23: "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Bubba

 

[Nathan]

What is the "mark"?

 

[Bubba]

What Is Sin?
-by Tony Warren

"The word sin in Hebrew is [chattath], from the root [chatta], and in Greek it is [hamartia]. Both these words mean 'to miss the mark.' They are words which illustrate that something is off target. With relationship to God's laws, they mean that one has failed to meet the standard (missed the mark) set by God for us. God's mark or standard is His law. Thus sin is the transgression of any of the laws of God."

 

[Nathan]

Where in scripture, or the letters, does it state that God's mark or standard is His law? This is a serious question, not trying to be sarcastic.

 

[Nathan]

Not sure if my last post went through or not???

 

[stovebolts]

nathaniel,
Sorry for the issue. Currently every new post in several of our forums are being sent to a moderation queue that needs to be approved by me before it will post. It's one of the issues that needs to be worked through.

I'm telling you this because I'm about to leave, and nobody will be around to approve the posts.

I'm sorry for this, and I wish it were not the case. I would ask that you and others please be patient while this gets resolved.

Grace and peace.