Poll: Is ear piercing really too 'liberal'?

[farouk]

Re: Poll: Earring for a man, a positive testimony

"for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart."~I Samuel 16:7b KJV

questdriven:

Thanks for that verse; yes, very relevant.

PS: I probably mis-phrased the whole thing anyway, from the start.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

Re: Poll: Earring for a man, a positive testimony

PS: I can't close threads; maybe a mod. would like to close this one?

Blessings.

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Poll: Earring for a man, a positive testimony

PS: I can't close threads; maybe a mod. would like to close this one?

Blessings.

Blessings also to you, farouk.

No, I don't want to close it. I don't wear earrings, nor do I have any tats, but having a place to talk about it is fine. You never know, maybe even an old dog can learn?

 

[farouk]

Re: Poll: Earring for a man, a positive testimony

Blessings also to you, farouk.

No, I don't want to close it. I don't wear earrings, nor do I have any tats, but having a place to talk about it is fine. You never know, maybe even an old dog can learn?

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

I've raised two sons. During that process, many things have been taught to me. Most of which I am still learning. Is there a lifelong learner's club? There should be.

When my son got his tongue pierced, I thought about it (didn't speak until after thinking, that time). While pondering it, I grabbed my tongue between thumb and forefinger and squeezed. It hurt, but wasn't all that bad. So later I told my son what I had done and we had a laugh about my tongue pinching experiment. He said his piercing didn't hurt at all and I turned to the internet for research (which is kinda my thing). I saw something in the Bible where a servant could be joined to the house (family) by piercing through the ear and into the doorpost of the home. You'll know more about this than me, as I've not studied it.

But back when I grew up (1950's and 60's) there were other "issues" between generations. Mostly it was about hair length and music choice. Beatlemania, as seen through the Ed Sullivan lens, Jerry Lee and his "inflammatory" song about balls, pelvic gyrations, and "free love". Of course, there were other more serious issues for the young to trip over. Drugs, for instance. Over the years, and as the old dog learned, unless something is sin, there need be no rebuke. Sometimes even the best intention merely causes the "gap" to widen.

Many have tried to make a case from Scripture about various behaviors being sinful and I do understand that we are to avoid even the appearance of evil. That thought requires balance though. It's something that is learned over time and may only be understood by those who are mature in the Word, having exercised themselves in it. One one hand is the possibility that a brother or sister may be stumbled by the liberty that is taken and preference should be given for the weaker. On the other is the fact that it is God and God alone who judges hearts. He declares that some things are left up to individual conscience. So that if a brother believes it to be sin (I don't), then for him it is sin. As I've said, a balancing act that requires skill.

But farouk, I know you know these things. I also know that you are able to walk people who are curious about the whole subject or even the small parts within it through the discussion. I could go on and on (and have) but just wanted to say that I meant my greeting, "Blessings to you also, farouk" and I do think it is good to have a place to talk about stuff here.

I know that I've left things out while discussing it above, but I like what John said in the close of his Good News Gospel: John 21:25 especially the 2nd "should be written," as in, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

 

[farouk]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

I've raised two sons. During that process, many things have been taught to me. Most of which I am still learning. Is there a lifelong learner's club? There should be.

When my son got his tongue pierced, I thought about it (didn't speak until after thinking, that time). While pondering it, I grabbed my tongue between thumb and forefinger and squeezed. It hurt, but wasn't all that bad. So later I told my son what I had done and we had a laugh about my tongue pinching experiment. He said his piercing didn't hurt at all and I turned to the internet for research (which is kinda my thing). I saw something in the Bible where a servant could be joined to the house (family) by piercing through the ear and into the doorpost of the home. You'll know more about this than me, as I've not studied it.

But back when I grew up (1950's and 60's) there were other "issues" between generations. Mostly it was about hair length and music choice. Beatlemania, as seen through the Ed Sullivan lens, Jerry Lee and his "inflammatory" song about balls, pelvic gyrations, and "free love". Of course, there were other more serious issues for the young to trip over. Drugs, for instance. Over the years, and as the old dog learned, unless something is sin, there need be no rebuke. Sometimes even the best intention merely causes the "gap" to widen.

Many have tried to make a case from Scripture about various behaviors being sinful and I do understand that we are to avoid even the appearance of evil. That thought requires balance though. It's something that is learned over time and may only be understood by those who are mature in the Word, having exercised themselves in it. One one hand is the possibility that a brother or sister may be stumbled by the liberty that is taken and preference should be given for the weaker. On the other is the fact that it is God and God alone who judges hearts. He declares that some things are left up to individual conscience. So that if a brother believes it to be sin (I don't), then for him it is sin. As I've said, a balancing act that requires skill.

But farouk, I know you know these things. I also know that you are able to walk people who are curious about the whole subject or even the small parts within it through the discussion. I could go on and on (and have) but just wanted to say that I meant my greeting, "Blessings to you also, farouk" and I do think it is good to have a place to talk about stuff here.

I know that I've left things out while discussing it above, but I like what John said in the close of his Good News Gospel: John 21:25 especially the 2nd "should be written," as in, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

Sparrowhawke:

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Actually, the lady serving at my local Christian bookstore also happened to have a tongue ring. So your son got one, too.

Anyway, not something I would do. But certainly in comparison pierced ears need to be regarded as pretty tame.

I think Romans 14 gives a lot more leeway for individual preferences than some Fundamentalists give it credit for, actually.

Blessings.

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Is ear piercing really too 'liberal'?

Sometimes my thoughts meander. They wander a bit and take a lazy course through a subject. When I reviewed what I had written it may have looked like "free love" or sexual immorality was somehow a lessor sin than drug taking. Those who know me, know better but that is the way of words, written or not.

In an ideal world there would not be any sinner/heroes for young people to model themselves after. "They" would not have symbols to use that might give the suggestion that it is okay to do things as they do. The trade which is not theirs (meaning their lives, for each is formed in the Womb by God) in exchange for money, power and fame would not be considered because in that ideal world, "they" would not exist. But they do exist. So there I was, speaking to my children daily. Helping them use my lens of the word as they themselves were being formed. Thankfully, there also was the Lord who joined and enabled me.

It's a thorny path for now. I do appreciate the care that is needed and can not rail against Members who have opposing views to mine. I see this is also your thought.

Until later then,
Sparrow

 

[vocalyocal]

Re: Poll: Earring for a man, a positive testimony

"for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart."~I Samuel 16:7b KJV

hermenuetics would tell you, this scripture would be a picture of making a judgement on a ragged and impoverished human, not one who is dressed in a million dollar suit, and wearing a Mr. T's starter kit of gold chains and jewelery.

Its important to note the difference, since His teachings certainly spoke volumns about the dangers of wealth in this world, and where we were to store our riches

 

[vocalyocal]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

vocal: So if I can gauge what you are saying, you say that pierced ears could be a sign of being theologically aberrant?

No its probably more just a sign of immaturity, young people are the majority of folks who get piercings and tatoos and other body art.
as most young people are pretty much self absorbed and into themselves, the world they live in is pretty small, its usually a planet of one.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Actually, if I remember correctly the verse was originally about one of the men God rejected as king of Israel. Samuel thought the man looked strong and capable, but God rejected him anyway. Because of the condition of the man's heart.

Your argument would imply that any possessions that are not necessary are wrong. Some do take this stance, but there is plenty of room for disagreement.
It is true that we are not to become attached to the things of this world. If we stake our hope and our happiness on earthly things, we'll only end up disappointed. However, there is a difference between simply having something and being obsessed with it to the point of neglecting our spiritual life.
According to Romans 14:14, Paul says that he is persuaded that nothing is unclean of itself. It's sin that taints it, the motives behind it. And indeed, we are told not to be dress out of a sense of vanity. Vanity is defined as pride in excess. Dress can be and often is a manner of vanity, but wanting to dress nicely doesn't necessarily make one vain.

 

[vocalyocal]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

I've raised two sons. During that process, many things have been taught to me. Most of which I am still learning. Is there a lifelong learner's club? There should be.

When my son got his tongue pierced, I thought about it (didn't speak until after thinking, that time). While pondering it, I grabbed my tongue between thumb and forefinger and squeezed. It hurt, but wasn't all that bad. So later I told my son what I had done and we had a laugh about my tongue pinching experiment. He said his piercing didn't hurt at all and I turned to the internet for research (which is kinda my thing). I saw something in the Bible where a servant could be joined to the house (family) by piercing through the ear and into the doorpost of the home. You'll know more about this than me, as I've not studied it.

But back when I grew up (1950's and 60's) there were other "issues" between generations. Mostly it was about hair length and music choice. Beatlemania, as seen through the Ed Sullivan lens, Jerry Lee and his "inflammatory" song about balls, pelvic gyrations, and "free love". Of course, there were other more serious issues for the young to trip over. Drugs, for instance. Over the years, and as the old dog learned, unless something is sin, there need be no rebuke. Sometimes even the best intention merely causes the "gap" to widen.

Many have tried to make a case from Scripture about various behaviors being sinful and I do understand that we are to avoid even the appearance of evil. That thought requires balance though. It's something that is learned over time and may only be understood by those who are mature in the Word, having exercised themselves in it. One one hand is the possibility that a brother or sister may be stumbled by the liberty that is taken and preference should be given for the weaker. On the other is the fact that it is God and God alone who judges hearts. He declares that some things are left up to individual conscience. So that if a brother believes it to be sin (I don't), then for him it is sin. As I've said, a balancing act that requires skill.

But farouk, I know you know these things. I also know that you are able to walk people who are curious about the whole subject or even the small parts within it through the discussion. I could go on and on (and have) but just wanted to say that I meant my greeting, "Blessings to you also, farouk" and I do think it is good to have a place to talk about stuff here.

I know that I've left things out while discussing it above, but I like what John said in the close of his Good News Gospel: John 21:25 especially the 2nd "should be written," as in, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

As I have said I don't denote any of these things to be sinful, whether it is piercings or tatoos, all I am saying is by what Spirit leads men or women to do such things, would you say that the Holy Spirit is behind the movement of tatoos and body art, stop into a tatoo parlour sometime and look around, tell me if you see any work of the Holy Spirit, in the many pictures and designs of this art form

take a little time to go through the artist books of designs, of what many people who gravitate towards these things want to have done, Its funny to me that some things are so easily spiritual discerned, at first glance, and others need to be schooled that symbols of skulls and daggers, pentagrams and many other occult symbols are ways spirits tag people just like a gang member tags their neighborhood

 

[farouk]

Actually, if I remember correctly the verse was originally about one of the men God rejected as king of Israel. Samuel thought the man looked strong and capable, but God rejected him anyway. Because of the condition of the man's heart.

Your argument would imply that any possessions that are not necessary are wrong. Some do take this stance, but there is plenty of room for disagreement.
It is true that we are not to become attached to the things of this world. If we stake our hope and our happiness on earthly things, we'll only end up disappointed. However, there is a difference between simply having something and being obsessed with it to the point of neglecting our spiritual life.
According to Romans 14:14, Paul says that he is persuaded that nothing is unclean of itself. It's sin that taints it, the motives behind it. And indeed, we are told not to be dress out of a sense of vanity. Vanity is defined as pride in excess. Dress can be and often is a manner of vanity, but wanting to dress nicely doesn't necessarily make one vain.

questdriven:

Good and thoughtful post.

I'm sure that Romans 14 is very relevant, having a meaningful guide to this and many similar topics.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

Re: Is ear piercing really too 'liberal'?

vocalyokel:

Surely there is a distinction between the medium and the message.

(There is also a thread about a career at a tattoo parlor. Probably more for that thread than this one.)

 

[vocalyocal]

Actually, if I remember correctly the verse was originally about one of the men God rejected as king of Israel. Samuel thought the man looked strong and capable, but God rejected him anyway. Because of the condition of the man's heart.

Your argument would imply that any possessions that are not necessary are wrong. Some do take this stance, but there is plenty of room for disagreement.
It is true that we are not to become attached to the things of this world. If we stake our hope and our happiness on earthly things, we'll only end up disappointed. However, there is a difference between simply having something and being obsessed with it to the point of neglecting our spiritual life.
According to Romans 14:14, Paul says that he is persuaded that nothing is unclean of itself. It's sin that taints it, the motives behind it. And indeed, we are told not to be dress out of a sense of vanity. Vanity is defined as pride in excess. Dress can be and often is a manner of vanity, but wanting to dress nicely doesn't necessarily make one vain.

yes Samuel was thinking outwardly which man would make a better looking king, and David was the young ruddy faced shepard boy who was chosen. not because he was big and strong, but because God judges the heart,

this is why that scripture was inaccurate for portraying that the positive side of following in the worlds footsteps with tatoos and piercings and making yourself look like a painted pin cushion, is not going to have God making any judgements about your decisions, and that he only judges whats in your heart.


I say that wanting tatoos and piercings has alot to do with a persons heart, if someone wants them so bad, you have to really wonder why

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

As I have said I don't denote any of these things to be sinful, whether it is piercings or tatoos, all I am saying is by what Spirit leads men or women to do such things, would you say that the Holy Spirit is behind the movement of tatoos and body art, stop into a tatoo parlour sometime and look around, tell me if you see any work of the Holy Spirit, in the many pictures and designs of this art form

take a little time to go through the artist books of designs, of what many people who gravitate towards these things want to have done, Its funny to me that some things are so easily spiritual discerned, at first glance, and others need to be schooled that symbols of skulls and daggers, pentagrams and many other occult symbols are ways spirits tag people just like a gang member tags their neighborhood

Talking to the wrong guy there. I'll not find myself hanging around such places but I also have no problems with those who do. As far as the leading of the Holy Spirit goes, I don't need to go to a parlour to see evidence of Christians who also have tats or ears (pierced or not). My point is that it is evident that we are given ears to hear, without regard to hole counting. It has more to do with willingness than it does overt body function or appearance. Mostly what I'm saying is that all these things shall pass, yet there is that which shall not pass away.

The word of God went in through those pierced ears, my friend. This is what makes us clean. Are you saying that you are the "weaker brother" that Paul speaks about? I am not saying that those who consider it sin should do it at all. I don't think it is sinful for a person (gender doesn't matter) to have their ears pierced but that doesn't mean that I'll go to do it tomorrow either. More like a *shrug* than any alarm in me.

 

[evenifigoalone]

yes Samuel was thinking outwardly which man would make a better looking king, and David was the young ruddy faced shepard boy who was chosen. not because he was big and strong, but because God judges the heart,

this is why that scripture was inaccurate for portraying that the positive side of following in the worlds footsteps with tatoos and piercings and making yourself look like a painted pin cushion, is not going to have God making any judgements about your decisions, and that he only judges whats in your heart.


I say that wanting tatoos and piercings has alot to do with a persons heart, if someone wants them so bad, you have to really wonder why

I'm still convinced it was a relevant scripture, but no point arguing.


You could make the same argument about pretty much anything, honestly. It's pretty subjective.


I know Christians who have tattoos, ear peircings, and the like, who seem to be strong, Spirit-filled people. I don't feel it's my place to try to judge their motives, because I can't see into their heart.
Now, if they are actually doing something Scripturally shown to be sinful, that's another matter. But in matters of the heart, no human is capable of knowing another's heart.

 

[Sparkey]

So my grandsons just came over and guess what? Yep, they had tattoos. They are the rub-n-stick kind. No parlors, no artist books, I think they got them in a bubble-guy machine...

Chicken dinner coming up, will sign off and return laters.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

As I have said I don't denote any of these things to be sinful, whether it is piercings or tatoos, all I am saying is by what Spirit leads men or women to do such things, would you say that the Holy Spirit is behind the movement of tatoos and body art, stop into a tatoo parlour sometime and look around, tell me if you see any work of the Holy Spirit, in the many pictures and designs of this art form

I actually don't think that something has to be Christian or have a Christian message to be alright to watch or do, as long as it's something that wouldn't in and of itself involve sinning.
TV programs, for instance. They are often not Christian and not intended to be, but few would argue that this alone makes them automatically wrong.

That said, while those things are permissible, they shouldn't take over one's mind. One should indeed spend more time entertaining the spirit than the flesh. We do need to keep a watch over this.
I don't think God has anything against people enjoying something as long as their life is focused mainly on Him (as we are commanded to be), and are not knowingly sinning.

 

[farouk]

So my grandsons just came over and guess what? Yep, they had tattoos. They are the rub-n-stick kind. No parlors, no artist books, I think they got them in a bubble-guy machine...

Chicken dinner coming up, will sign off and return laters.

Sparrowhawke:

Well, don't be too suprised if they eventually get earrings, too.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

I'm still convinced it was a relevant scripture, but no point arguing.


You could make the same argument about pretty much anything, honestly. It's pretty subjective.


I know Christians who have tattoos, ear peircings, and the like, who seem to be strong, Spirit-filled people. ..

questdriven:

Well, exactly.

And in the end, if they wish to go under the needle in one way or another, this is their business, isn't it.

Blessings.