Poll: Is ear piercing really too 'liberal'?

[Deborah13]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

Deborah13:

Re-reading now what you said here, I think this is one of the very many matters which, not being of doctrinal significance, need to be left to family and individual discretion, without busy-bodying or guilt-manipulating, which achieve nothing.

Blessings.

Yes, a matter of one's own concious. There's a video on YouTube of my husband's cousins playing in the Christian band they are a part of. The leader of the band has TATS, lol I thought of you. They are cowboys not rock.

 

[farouk]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

Yes, a matter of one's own concious. There's a video on YouTube of my husband's cousins playing in the Christian band they are a part of. The leader of the band has TATS, lol I thought of you. They are cowboys not rock.

Deborah13:

Well, exactly, it's all a matter of personal taste and conscience, in the spirit of Romans 14, I guess. And in fact it's not unusual for members of Christian bands, men or women, to have tattoos; neither are earrings unusual for Christian musicians, men or women. These are matters of personal taste and custom, really. And I don't see how one could supposedly 'spiritualize' classical musicians for performing in a tuxedo or a typical, floppy off the shoulder gown, while Christian musicians who happen to have tattoos and earrings should supposedly be 'unspiritualized', either.

I know that in a family there may be subjective feelings going around when young people, reaching a certain stage of life might mark the occasion with jewelry ("Oh, I remember when her grandma took me for my first earrings; my heart feels fluttery"; "Oh, to think that my son's earlobe won't be bare any longer!"); this is all natural. But for some people to insist on linking these subjective feelings and ideas with Christian doctrine and Godly living makes no sense whatever, in my humble opinion.

 

[farouk]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

... The leader of the band has TATS, lol I thought of you. ..

PS: Deborah13: does s/he? I see...

(I gtg shopping, bbl; ttyl, blessings.)

 

[Claudya]

Re: Okay so best way to pierce ears?

Claudya:

Were the Berlin Wall and the DDR gone before you guys had piercing guns in use for earlobes?

I don't really know. But I think they just some kind of pincers.

 

[farouk]

Re: Okay so best way to pierce ears?

I don't really know. But I think they just some kind of pincers.

Claudya:

Okay, ty.

So you're obviously talking about after the Wall came down, anyway, with your experience of the piercing gun.

 

[Claudya]

Re: Okay so best way to pierce ears?

Claudya:

Okay, ty.

So you're obviously talking about after the Wall came down, anyway, with your experience of the piercing gun.

Yeah, I was 8 when the wall came down and twelve when my ears got shot. I remember that in the GDR many girls got their earrings at young age. I used to be jealous. 12 was late for a girl to get her ears pierced.

 

[farouk]

Re: Okay so best way to pierce ears?

Yeah, I was 8 when the wall came down and twelve when my ears got shot. I remember that in the GDR many girls got their earrings at young age. I used to be jealous. 12 was late for a girl to get her ears pierced.

Claudya: Did they? and was it? Well, I see.

Anyway, the very widespread custom in the West for 30 - 35 years has been for young women to get at least 2 holes in each earlobe; I just wondered if this custom would have also arrived in the East only after the Wall came down?

 

[farouk]

Re: Okay so best way to pierce ears?

I knew a doctor that would pierce his patients ears for free. The reason was that he had to treat so many infections with people that had their ears pierced under unsanitary conditions. Actually he was a pediatrician so the patients were often pretty young. So my answer is to get the most professional person you can, where your going to have the least chance of an infection.

JohnR: Okay, so I guess you would say, if the doctor isn't available to do it, better to go to the piercing/tattoo parlor to get it done, then?

 

[evenifigoalone]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

Y'know, the amish take the whole "separate from the world" thing so far as to eschew modern technology. Obviously if you have a computer and the internet you don't agree with their mindset on this matter.
So how far is it to be taken?


Did the Bible really mean that we are to reject something simply because a lot of non-Christians are accepting it, or does it simply mean not to accept things that are actually sinful, as the world does?

 

[farouk]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

Y'know, the amish take the whole "separate from the world" thing so far as to eschew modern technology. Obviously if you have a computer and the internet you don't agree with their mindset on this matter.
So how far is it to be taken?


Did the Bible really mean that we are to reject something simply because a lot of non-Christians are accepting it, or does it simply mean not to accept things that are actually sinful, as the world does?

questdriven:

You raise an interesting point, and the answer, generally speaking, would be that they would have to be areas where the basic considerations are moral and spiritual, when it comes to separation from the world, rather than to be discerned merely outwardly and physically.

For the subject this thread, specifically to males, is there or would there be any males in your family who have done, or might consider doing, this practice?

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

questdriven:

You raise an interesting point, and the answer, generally speaking, would be that it's an area where the basic considerations are moral and spiritual, when it comes to separation from the world, rather than to be discerned merely outwardly and physically.

For the subject this thread, specifically to males, is there or would there be any males in your family who have done, or might consider doing, this practice?

Blessings.

Yeah. I think that concentrating on matters of dress is concentrating on the outward appearance more than anything. Someone could dress totally conservative, reject earrings, reject women wearing pants, etc, and still be a mess on the inside. If someone thinks these are Biblical things, I may not agree but I'm not going to tell them what to do as this is something we all need to decide for ourselves. But one shouldn't get so proud of how well they are following these things that they neglect the condition of their spirit.

I don't know of any males in my family who would want earrings. They either consider it wrong (which is fine), or just don't want them.
My older brother did have an earring, at least at one point. Not sure if he still has it or not. Been a long time since I've seen him in person. (He found me on facebook recently.)

 

[farouk]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

Yeah. I think that concentrating on matters of dress is concentrating on the outward appearance more than anything. Someone could dress totally conservative, reject earrings, reject women wearing pants, etc, and still be a mess on the inside. If someone thinks these are Biblical things, I may not agree but I'm not going to tell them what to do as this is something we all need to decide for ourselves. But one shouldn't get so proud of how well they are following these things that they neglect the condition of their spirit.

I don't know of any males in my family who would want earrings. They either consider it wrong (which is fine), or just don't want them.
My older brother did have an earring, at least at one point. Not sure if he still has it or not. Been a long time since I've seen him in person. (He found me on facebook recently.)

questdriven:

Yes, your comments about seeking to keep one's inward spirit right before God, rather than emphasizing the outward, make a lot of sense. We need the grace of God constantly for this, of course, and prayer and Bible reading form much of the key to it.

Re. your brother that you mention, when he pierced his ear did it seem to you to be maybe quite a natural development?

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

questdriven:

Yes, your comments about seeking to keep one's inward spirit right before God, rather than emphasizing the outward, make a lot of sense. We need the grace of God constantly for this, of course, and prayer and Bible reading form much of the key to it.

Re. your brother that you mention, when he pierced his ear did it seem to you to be maybe quite a natural development?

Blessings.

I think true change happens from the inside out. I think if someone's walking with God, first it will impact their spirit, and then as time goes on they'll begin to change other things in their life that they feel may be wrong or a hindrance, as God reveals things to them. And for some that may include things like earrings, if they come to feel that it is wrong or that it causes a problem for them. Something may not necessarily or automatically be wrong, but according to Romans 14:23, if we honestly feel something is wrong, then it's wrong to do it despite feeling it's wrong.

I didn't even notice. My mom pointed it out to me after his visit was over. (She didn't approve of it, but since he was no longer living with us, she didn't make anything out of it.)

 

[farouk]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

I think true change happens from the inside out. I think if someone's walking with God, first it will impact their spirit, and then as time goes on they'll begin to change other things in their life that they feel may be wrong or a hindrance, as God reveals things to them. And for some that may include things like earrings, if they come to feel that it is wrong or that it causes a problem for them. Something may not necessarily or automatically be wrong, but according to Romans 14:23, if we honestly feel something is wrong, then it's wrong to do it despite feeling it's wrong.

I didn't even notice. My mom pointed it out to me after his visit was over. (She didn't approve of it, but since he was no longer living with us, she didn't make anything out of it.)

questdriven:

Yes, you are absolutely right about the Lord changing us from the inside out. I love that verse: 'My son, give me thine heart' (Proverbs 23.26). In terms of the specifics of this thread, I'm rather inclined to believe that it's not so much a matter of right or wrong, as opposed to whether for some men and boys they might I suppose sometimes sense that in certain very conservative company it might be suitable to remove their earrings, although having said this, it's so widespread today that people don't even notice it.

Which is what seems to have happened with you, when your brother visited. (Not that you would even have had negative thoughts about it necessarily anyway.) Again, I would probably be inclined to put any thoughts that your mom might have had about it in the context of her personal tastes and subjective feelings, rather than it being a matter of right or wrong.

(Don't know if she would have seen it in that way? though.)

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

questdriven:

Yes, you are absolutely right about the Lord changing us from the inside out. I love that verse: 'My son, give me thine heart'. In terms of the specifics of this thread, I'm rather inclined to believe that it's not so much a matter of right or wrong, as opposed to whether for some men and boys they might I suppose sometimes sense that in certain very conservative company it might be suitable to remove their earrings, although having said this, it's so widespread today that people don't even notice it.

Which is what seems to have happened with you, when your brother visited. (Not that you would even have had negative thoughts about it necessarily anyway.) Again, I would probably be inclined to put any thoughts that your mom might have had about it in the context of her personal tastes and subjective feelings, rather than it being a matter of right or wrong.

(Don't know if she would have seen it in that way? though.)

Blessings.

Yeah. If something's largely considered to be wrong, but isn't necessarily, then by doing the thing considered to be wrong you would be giving the appearance of evil. Also, if someone feels something to be wrong, Romans 14 does say to respect this and not be all in their face about it. Because that kind of attitude is not acting out of love, but out of spite.


Oh, she does see it as wrong. I grew up in a fundamentalist, independent Baptist church. They have some stances on some things that could be considered extreme by others. My mom began reading fundamentalist literature and newsletters, and that's what helped her to start living like a Christian again and going to church and stuff. It certainly wasn't a bad thing (if it hadn't happened, I may not be a Christian today), but it did come with some extra-Biblical doctrines (more extreme view of separation from the world, rejecting a lot of things that aren't actually wrong, often including higher education) that I no longer agree with. Although I do respect their right to have those views, and would defend to the death their right to have them.
(As far as the five main fundamental doctrines go, I, and probably a great deal of Christians of other denominations, could still be defined technically as fundamentalist. But when it comes to the extra-Biblical doctrines they typically embrace, I'm not. So I'm fundamentalist, but depending on how you define the term.)

 

[farouk]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

Yeah. If something's largely considered to be wrong, but isn't necessarily, then by doing the thing considered to be wrong you would be giving the appearance of evil. Also, if someone feels something to be wrong, Romans 14 does say to respect this and not be all in their face about it. Because that kind of attitude is not acting out of love, but out of spite.


Oh, she does see it as wrong. I grew up in a fundamentalist, independent Baptist church. They have some stances on some things that could be considered extreme by others. My mom began reading fundamentalist literature and newsletters, and that's what helped her to start living like a Christian again and going to church and stuff. It certainly wasn't a bad thing (if it hadn't happened, I may not be a Christian today), but it did come with some extra-Biblical doctrines (more extreme view of separation from the world, rejecting a lot of things that aren't actually wrong, often including higher education) that I no longer agree with. Although I respect their right to have those views, and would defend to the death their right to have them. (That said, I must admit that the things going on in my life recently do have me a little miffed at such legalism.)
(As far as the five main fundamental doctrines go, I, and probably a great deal of Christians of other denominations, could still be defined technically as fundamentalist. But when it comes to the extra-Biblical doctrines they typically embrace, I'm not. So I'm fundamentalist, but depending on how you define the term.)

questdriven:

You have some very sensible and balanced ideas there, I think, actually.

I wonder why she would think it was wrong, as opposed to simply not being in accordance with her subjective tastes?

Seems to me that an excellent emphasis on Biblical doctrine needs to be distinguished from elevating subjective, cultural customs, and reactions to them, to the level of a supposed dogma.

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

I'm really not sure where the idea that earrings are only for women came from. Never seen anything about it in the Bible. Probably they see it as a man dressing like a woman thing, but again, who is to say that it's only for women? If it's socially viewed as a woman thing, then a man with earrings would be giving the appearance of evil. But society as a whole doesn't consider it that way anymore.
Just my thoughts, anyway.

 

[farouk]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

I'm really not sure where the idea that earrings are only for women came from. Never seen anything about it in the Bible. Probably they see it as a man dressing like a woman thing, but again, who is to say that it's only for women? If it's socially viewed as a woman thing, then a man with earrings would be giving the appearance of evil. But society as a whole doesn't consider it that way anymore.
Just my thoughts, anyway.

questdriven:

It's maybe interesting that many men among the former community of Mountain Jews in Morocco, who dated their diaspora from the Israelites' journeying in the Wilderness, traditionally wore earrings as, supposedly, a sign that their ancestors did not participate in Aaron's idolatry with the golden calf. (Just a tradition, of course.)

It was not unusual also for rulers in the east to wear earrings.

The mere fact that in Fundamentalist circles in North America 60 to 70 years ago men didn't wear earrings, doesn't mean that such a cultural fact is some kind of divine absolute for all time. People can argue vehemently one way or the opposite, but in the end it's cultural and subjective, I would suggest.

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

Regarding the thread title, from what I've seen having grown up in a fundamentalist home, some of them consider anything they don't agree with to be something the liberals do. I don't know that my family has ever said it themselves, but I've been around it enough to know that this is the case.

"Liberal" is derived from the word "liberty", so in a sense a man wearing earrings might be rightly called a liberal thing. (Liberal didn't always mean what it does now. At one time, liberals would have been more or less the conservatives of today, believing in freedom from government control. In other words, liberty. But this thread isn't about political beliefs, so that's off topic.)

 

[farouk]

Re: Is it supposedly 'liberal' to let your son pierce his ears?

Regarding the thread title, from what I've seen having grown up in a fundamentalist home, some of them consider anything they don't agree with to be something the liberals do. I don't know that my family has ever said it themselves, but I've been around it enough to know that this is the case.

"Liberal" is derived from the word "liberty", so in a sense a man wearing earrings might be rightly called a liberal thing. (Liberal didn't always mean what it does now. At one time, liberals would have been more or less the conservatives of today, believing in freedom from government control. In other words, liberty. But this thread isn't about political beliefs, so that's off topic.)

questdriven:

Yes, well, the word in the title was put in inverted commas; I think it was because I was questioning its use in illogical or irrelevant ways, really, as it seemed to me. I find such usage somewhat illogical, anyway.

(My previous post, which arrived just as yours did, was in response, with one or two observations, to your post on the male aspect.)

Blessings.