Poll re. good tattoo artist career for a Christian woman

[Deborah13]

I heard of a practice by the voodoo folks, and I thought of this thread? Its seems they believe that by cutting the skin, they can open spiritual and demonic doors into the body of a person. I wonder if this is why the Old Testament warned against some of these things?

George Muller:

Very strange idea; and I'm sure that most Christian young men doing it before heading out to the military, homeschooling moms, or grammas, etc. that for witness purposes get e.g. a Christian fish sign inked on their wrist or foot would think it a very strange idea, too, and it probably would never occur to them to think in such a way.

On the one hand the Christian should shun any overtly pagan practices; on the other, the Christian shouldn't try to establish linkages that just aren't there in order to try to reinforce a particular point of view.

Make sense?

Blessings.

Not sure of your point? You seem to want to take both sides of the issue, in a way. Like I said, I heard this thing about the cutting of the flesh as used in voodoo? It seems it should be considered in regards to what was written in the law? I think that is an honest point, not intended to reinforce a particular point of view, but that of one who desires "to test all things''

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hi George, When I was first thinking about how I stood on this issue I went to God's Word. This is the scripture that I found.
Leviticus 19:27-29

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">27 </sup>You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard. <sup class="versenum">28 </sup>You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord.


It was obvious that the context here was as a whole. I didn't understand so I went to conservative Mr. Matthew Henry. This is what he said...
There was a superstition even in trimming themselves used by the heathen, which must not be imitated by the people of God: You shall not round the corners of your heads. Those that worshipped the hosts of heaven, in honour of them, cut their hair so as that their heads might resemble the celestial globe; but, as the custom was foolish itself, so, being done with respect to their false gods, it was idolatrous. 4. The rites and ceremonies by which they expressed their sorrow at their funerals must not be imitated, Lev. 19:28. They must not make cuts or prints in their flesh for the dead; for the heathen did so to pacify the infernal deities they dreamt of, and to render them propitious to their deceased friends. Christ by his sufferings has altered the property of death, and made it a true friend to every true Israelite; and now, as there needs nothing to make death propitious to us (for, if God be so, death is so of course), so we sorrow not as those that have no hope. Those whom the God of Israel had set apart for himself must not receive the image and superscription of these dunghill deities.

So we see it had nothing to do with shedding blood or marking the body but that it was superstitions and idolatries.

So to me once again it seems to be about intent. Certainly we wouldn't tell someone they couldn't shave the sides of their heads or cut the beard a certain way? Neither would we say we should pierce both ears of flesh in order to show that we are a slave to Christ.

Praying always for discernment for any decisions we make is prudent, searching out the wisdom of God for us.

 

[farouk]

Hi George, When I was first thinking about how I stood on this issue I went to God's Word. This is the scripture that I found.
Leviticus 19:27-29

New King James Version (NKJV)

<SUP class=versenum>27 </SUP>You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard. <SUP class=versenum>28 </SUP>You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord.


It was obvious that the context here was as a whole. I didn't understand so I went to conservative Mr. Matthew Henry. This is what he said...
There was a superstition even in trimming themselves used by the heathen, which must not be imitated by the people of God: You shall not round the corners of your heads. Those that worshipped the hosts of heaven, in honour of them, cut their hair so as that their heads might resemble the celestial globe; but, as the custom was foolish itself, so, being done with respect to their false gods, it was idolatrous. 4. The rites and ceremonies by which they expressed their sorrow at their funerals must not be imitated, Lev. 19:28. They must not make cuts or prints in their flesh for the dead; for the heathen did so to pacify the infernal deities they dreamt of, and to render them propitious to their deceased friends. Christ by his sufferings has altered the property of death, and made it a true friend to every true Israelite; and now, as there needs nothing to make death propitious to us (for, if God be so, death is so of course), so we sorrow not as those that have no hope. Those whom the God of Israel had set apart for himself must not receive the image and superscription of these dunghill deities.

So we see it had nothing to do with shedding blood or marking the body but that it was superstitions and idolatries.

So to me once again it seems to be about intent. Certainly we wouldn't tell someone they couldn't shave the sides of their heads or cut the beard a certain way? Neither would we say we should pierce both ears of flesh in order to show that we are a slave to Christ.

Praying always for discernment for any decisions we make is prudent, searching out the wisdom of God for us.

Deborah13:

Thanks for your comments.

So for example, in the case of a Christian woman in the community mentioned in the quote, above: 'a woman in her sixties who got a tattoo because everyone in the golf clique at her gated community had one. It seemed like the thing to do in order to fit in.' There's absolutely no need for a Christian woman to do it, just because all the other women are doing it, right?

But then if a Christian woman living in that situation wanted a witness design to speak to those other women in the same community and was prayerfully sure it would indeed be a means of testimony, would it necessarily link her to necromancy as practised by those things you talked about in Leviticus 19 if she got a small Christian fish sign done or whatever?


Blessings.

<O:p</O:p

<O:p</O:p

 

[George Muller]

I heard of a practice by the voodoo folks, and I thought of this thread? Its seems they believe that by cutting the skin, they can open spiritual and demonic doors into the body of a person. I wonder if this is why the Old Testament warned against some of these things?

George Muller:

Very strange idea; and I'm sure that most Christian young men doing it before heading out to the military, homeschooling moms, or grammas, etc. that for witness purposes get e.g. a Christian fish sign inked on their wrist or foot would think it a very strange idea, too, and it probably would never occur to them to think in such a way.

On the one hand the Christian should shun any overtly pagan practices; on the other, the Christian shouldn't try to establish linkages that just aren't there in order to try to reinforce a particular point of view.

Make sense?

Blessings.

Not sure of your point? You seem to want to take both sides of the issue, in a way. Like I said, I heard this thing about the cutting of the flesh as used in voodoo? It seems it should be considered in regards to what was written in the law? I think that is an honest point, not intended to reinforce a particular point of view, but that of one who desires "to test all things''

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hi George, When I was first thinking about how I stood on this issue I went to God's Word. This is the scripture that I found.
Leviticus 19:27-29

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">27 </sup>You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard. <sup class="versenum">28 </sup>You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord.


It was obvious that the context here was as a whole. I didn't understand so I went to conservative Mr. Matthew Henry. This is what he said...
There was a superstition even in trimming themselves used by the heathen, which must not be imitated by the people of God: You shall not round the corners of your heads. Those that worshipped the hosts of heaven, in honour of them, cut their hair so as that their heads might resemble the celestial globe; but, as the custom was foolish itself, so, being done with respect to their false gods, it was idolatrous. 4. The rites and ceremonies by which they expressed their sorrow at their funerals must not be imitated, Lev. 19:28. They must not make cuts or prints in their flesh for the dead; for the heathen did so to pacify the infernal deities they dreamt of, and to render them propitious to their deceased friends. Christ by his sufferings has altered the property of death, and made it a true friend to every true Israelite; and now, as there needs nothing to make death propitious to us (for, if God be so, death is so of course), so we sorrow not as those that have no hope. Those whom the God of Israel had set apart for himself must not receive the image and superscription of these dunghill deities.

So we see it had nothing to do with shedding blood or marking the body but that it was superstitions and idolatries.

So to me once again it seems to be about intent. Certainly we wouldn't tell someone they couldn't shave the sides of their heads or cut the beard a certain way? Neither would we say we should pierce both ears of flesh in order to show that we are a slave to Christ.

Praying always for discernment for any decisions we make is prudent, searching out the wisdom of God for us.

I do thank you for the info, and I accept your understanding. But have you ever wondered why a certain satanic group does things in a certain way? With rituals, markings and words and such? almost always some use of blood. Theses things are to open spiritual doors, just as many other things such as greed and desire for power and glory can open doors unto satan to work in our lives. A bad movie could open a door of lust to a believer, wherein he is consumed by a spirit of lust. I heard somone speak of Jimmy Swaggart on another thread, who thought he was doing Gods work as he looked into issues of porno. He was captured by something greater than himself. I say that anyone who is thinking about getting a tattoo should be honest enough to pray and hear the Lords will on this issue. I dont know the answer He will give but I think He might ask why we want it?

 

[Free Christian]

I was wondering how a Christian based tattoo would open a conversation about Christ? I have many tattoo's from my past and have only over the thirty years I had them had just a handful of people ever mention them. For the most part no-one has ever cared to comment! Would the one with the tattoo say to the person next to them "hey, see my tattoo, im a Christian and this is what its about"? Or are they expecting the person to say "hey, a cross, whats that for?" Not making a joke out of it but Im seriously asking? I have met many people over the years who had crosses and had them done in prison as a simple quick tat, they were still not saved. On the TV here recently a girl was murdered and her killer had a tattoo of a false Image of Christ on his arm. Many RC based, from their culture, crime groups have religious based tattoo's on them. Saw crime show where the criminal was interviewed and had religious tattoo's all over him. I don't think people really pay any attention to them in the respect of what they mean or stand for to be honest in regards to looking and saying "hey they must be a Christian". Does a person think that daily they will be asked about their tattoo? It wont happen, Im telling you. The number of people I have met who wear crosses and are anything but Christian I have lost count of. The same goes for those who I have seen with religious based tattoo's. You are simply just another person with a tat.

 

[George Muller]

I was wondering how a Christian based tattoo would open a conversation about Christ? I have many tattoo's from my past and have only over the thirty years I had them had just a handful of people ever mention them. For the most part no-one has ever cared to comment! Would the one with the tattoo say to the person next to them "hey, see my tattoo, im a Christian and this is what its about"? Or are they expecting the person to say "hey, a cross, whats that for?" Not making a joke out of it but Im seriously asking? I have met many people over the years who had crosses and had them done in prison as a simple quick tat, they were still not saved. On the TV here recently a girl was murdered and her killer had a tattoo of a false Image of Christ on his arm. Many RC based, from their culture, crime groups have religious based tattoo's on them. Saw crime show where the criminal was interviewed and had religious tattoo's all over him. I don't think people really pay any attention to them in the respect of what they mean or stand for to be honest in regards to looking and saying "hey they must be a Christian". Does a person think that daily they will be asked about their tattoo? It wont happen, Im telling you. The number of people I have met who wear crosses and are anything but Christian I have lost count of. The same goes for those who I have seen with religious based tattoo's. You are simply just another person with a tat.

Very good points, and I have seen the same thing.

 

[farouk]

I was wondering how a Christian based tattoo would open a conversation about Christ? I have many tattoo's from my past and have only over the thirty years I had them had just a handful of people ever mention them. For the most part no-one has ever cared to comment! Would the one with the tattoo say to the person next to them "hey, see my tattoo, im a Christian and this is what its about"? Or are they expecting the person to say "hey, a cross, whats that for?" Not making a joke out of it but Im seriously asking? I have met many people over the years who had crosses and had them done in prison as a simple quick tat, they were still not saved. On the TV here recently a girl was murdered and her killer had a tattoo of a false Image of Christ on his arm. Many RC based, from their culture, crime groups have religious based tattoo's on them. Saw crime show where the criminal was interviewed and had religious tattoo's all over him. I don't think people really pay any attention to them in the respect of what they mean or stand for to be honest in regards to looking and saying "hey they must be a Christian". Does a person think that daily they will be asked about their tattoo? It wont happen, Im telling you. The number of people I have met who wear crosses and are anything but Christian I have lost count of. The same goes for those who I have seen with religious based tattoo's. You are simply just another person with a tat.

Free Christian:

If this is your experience, fine. Some people report that faith based tattoos do make effective conversation-starters.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

PS: from back

Yes, I think it could make for opportunities for testimony.
...Of course, we see that there are widely varying opinions on these matters. And while I may not ultimately agree with those who say that tattoos, earrings, etc are bad, I do think they can bring up good points that should be put into consideration. We should guard our motives, and do everything to the glory of God.

@questdriven :

Yes, I agree; well stated.

In the end it boils down to motive, right? and often it relates also to whether the person with a faith based tattoo actively wants to use it in conversations.

Blessings.

 

[Free Christian]

The phenomenon of people from every walk of life getting tattoo's today has too much smoke, pillars of billowing smoke, for there to be no fire behind it. Seriously, its too widespread and accepted, even from now I hate to say, Christians. It both saddens me and worries me at the same time.
One person suggested this to me recently. "Are people being conditioned to accept the marking of the body as nothing unusual? Will people one day say, I don't know about that ID mark?" only to have the reply "there's nothing wrong with it, look even Christians get tattoo's!"

 

[evenifigoalone]

Essentially the same argument could be made for a lot of things. Music, movies, etc. Pretty much everybody loves going to the movies, and pretty much everybody likes rock music. Christians even advocate these things and say they can be used for good. For example, Winter Jam is an annual Christian music tour featuring 10 Christian contemporary artists every year--hundreds upon thousands of people attend. When I tried to go to the one in Jacksonville this year, I and so many others were stuck outside because the building was filled to capacity.
Does that means there's too much smoke there and that those things should be avoided, too?
I doubt most anyone here would say yes to that, but some may and would claim to have Biblical support, as well. (There was this guy outside the building at Winter Jam talking through a loudspeaker. Later on I was told by somebody else that he was saying that music is unBblical or something like that. I didn't hear him say that myself, but then as the line was moving I wasn't within hearing range of him for too long.)

Things aren't fine and dandy simply because they're popular--like they say: "If they jumped off a cliff, would you jump, too?"
But just because something is popular doesn't mean that it's evil either.


The Bible is pretty specific about what the mark of the beast is going to be like. It'd be pretty hard to get the two confused unless one knows next to nothing about the end time prophecies. I'd think that if someone knew enough about them to know that the mark of the beast is going to be a form of ID and credit card, they probably know that tattoos are not the same thing. Although it is true that a tattoo could possibly be used in connection with the mark of the beast, as is often portrayed in end times-related media.


As for whether tattoos are Biblically permissible or not--well, I'm done arguing the technicalities of that. I just feel I've said all there is to say there and further discussion would not be very beneficial--at least, on my part. I think it's up to the individual's conscience, and I'll leave it there.

 

[George Muller]

The phenomenon of people from every walk of life getting tattoo's today has too much smoke, pillars of billowing smoke, for there to be no fire behind it. Seriously, its too widespread and accepted, even from now I hate to say, Christians. It both saddens me and worries me at the same time.
One person suggested this to me recently. "Are people being conditioned to accept the marking of the body as nothing unusual? Will people one day say, I don't know about that ID mark?" only to have the reply "there's nothing wrong with it, look even Christians get tattoo's!"

Interesting thought, and should be considered when one is thinking of the effects of tattoos upon the church and the world in general.

 

[Telrunya]

I would think 1 Corinthians 8 would be the guiding scripture on this subject as a whole. We have freedom in Christ. We need to weigh the effects of our use of freedom has on others though. I dont see how faith based tattoo's would be a stumbling block though.

 

[farouk]

As [MENTION=4376]handy[/MENTION] said, back a bit:

I don't have a problem with the idea of a Christian woman getting one on her ankle, calf, shoulder or arms... just not that big a deal to me.

I guess I'm inclined to agree with [MENTION=4376]handy[/MENTION], who if I remember correctly also said that various women at her church have chosen to do it, as well.

It boils down to recognizing that other Christians will be choosing to exercise their freedom in Christ in various ways. as [MENTION=96583]Telrunya[/MENTION], above, says; some in one way, some in another, and no one can expect that everyone will have the same ideas or tastes, as far as witness means are concerned.

Blessings.<ST1:p</ST1:p

 

[farouk]

Essentially the same argument could be made for a lot of things. Music, movies, etc. Pretty much everybody loves going to the movies, and pretty much everybody likes rock music. Christians even advocate these things and say they can be used for good. For example, Winter Jam is an annual Christian music tour featuring 10 Christian contemporary artists every year--hundreds upon thousands of people attend. When I tried to go to the one in Jacksonville this year, I and so many others were stuck outside because the building was filled to capacity.
Does that means there's too much smoke there and that those things should be avoided, too?
I doubt most anyone here would say yes to that, but some may and would claim to have Biblical support, as well. (There was this guy outside the building at Winter Jam talking through a loudspeaker. Later on I was told by somebody else that he was saying that music is unBblical or something like that. I didn't hear him say that myself, but then as the line was moving I wasn't within hearing range of him for too long.)

Things aren't fine and dandy simply because they're popular--like they say: "If they jumped off a cliff, would you jump, too?"
But just because something is popular doesn't mean that it's evil either.


The Bible is pretty specific about what the mark of the beast is going to be like. It'd be pretty hard to get the two confused unless one knows next to nothing about the end time prophecies. I'd think that if someone knew enough about them to know that the mark of the beast is going to be a form of ID and credit card, they probably know that tattoos are not the same thing. Although it is true that a tattoo could possibly be used in connection with the mark of the beast, as is often portrayed in end times-related media.


As for whether tattoos are Biblically permissible or not--well, I'm done arguing the technicalities of that. I just feel I've said all there is to say there and further discussion would not be very beneficial--at least, on my part. I think it's up to the individual's conscience, and I'll leave it there.

[MENTION=89910]questdriven[/MENTION]:

Ty for your contribution.

I thought that the whole point of the argument about the mark of the beast among Fundamentalists (many of whom are strongly Premillennial and Pretribulationalist) is that it will come about after the church has been raptured.

So it's a moot point anyway whether someone's tattoo might be a bit similar to whatever exactly the mark of the beast is going to be, since the church will be gone in any case. (Unless at the same time one is going to argue that the tribulation principle, 'In the world ye shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world', and the great tribulation of Matthew 24 are one and the same; unless at the same time one is going to argue that the Lord's coming in the air for His people in 1 Thess. 4 and His coming on earth in power and glory in 2 Thess., 2 Peter and various Old Testament passages are one and the same, but Dispensationalists and Fundamentalists don't usually read Scripture that way.)

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

(cont.) @questdriven :

Let me tell you about Nikki. She got a witness tattoo and talked to a friend, with whom she got into a discussion about her faith. Next Sunday Nikki’s friend came to Nikki’s church.
<O:p</O:p
On that day, the preacher at Nikki’s church preached against tattoos, whether with witness designs or not, and said that for young people to get tattoos was a rebellion against their parents.
<O:p</O:p
After the service, Nikki’s friend, who also had a tattoo, told Nikki she was kind of puzzled because she and her mom had gotten matching tattoos, so how come the preacher could think that she was rebelling against a parent? Nikki said, Well, never mind about that, come back next week, and meanwhile why not come with me to the concert on Saturday?
<O:p</O:p
On Saturday, Nikki and her friend went to the concert and afterwards Nikki talked to her friend about the faith based lyrics of the band that they had heard.
<O:p</O:p
Next Sunday, they went back to Nikki’s church. On that day, the preacher at Nikki’s church preached against all rock music, saying that it was all of demons.
<O:p</O:p
After the service, Nikki was confused because she had been reading in the New Testament that demons cannot dwell with the Spirit of God, so where did this leave the Spirit-inspired Bible references in the concert lyrics that she and her friend had just been listening to the previous day? But she didn’t say anything to her friend, just, Come back next week.
<O:p</O:p
The next week Nikki’s friend went to Nikki’s church again and the preacher said that no one can really be a true Christian without being Republican. Nikki’s friend said, This is kind of strange because my dad is from Plains and was once hired by Jimmy Carter.
<O:p</O:p
During the week Nikki felt that neither she nor her friend were benefiting from the preaching at her church and Nikki decided that she would try to take her friend to a church where they preached the Bible, all the Bible and nothing but the Bible.
<O:p</O:p
The next week, at Nikki’s former church, the preacher preached about the current generation of young people who were not interested in the Bible, (he claimed).
……….
Okay, so, fiction. But is it really?<O:p</O:p

 

[Sparkey]

Okay, so, fiction. But is it really?

Yes, it really is fiction. No 'bout adoubt it.

 

[farouk]

Okay, so, fiction. But is it really?

Yes, it really is fiction. No 'bout adoubt it.

Sparrowhawke:

Historical fiction, maybe?

Blessings.

 

[Sparkey]

Historical fiction, maybe?

Blessings.

I understand that you would like to add some authenticity to this fictional account and would like to suggest that it may have happened somewhere, sometime, on some planet in the universe. That's okay with me. It could have happened in OZ and will be part of the main story-line to be released in the next movie. Who knows?

But as far as "fictional accounts" go, I'll be taking a Creative Writing course soon and could use these fictional characters of The-Girl, The-Friend and The-Bad-Pastor to relay an entirely different message. It would be fun, but I doubt that you will copy-pasta it into any of your future posts. I highly doubt it.

 

[farouk]

Historical fiction, maybe?

Blessings.

I understand that you would like to add some authenticity to this fictional account and would like to suggest that it may have happened somewhere, sometime, on some planet in the universe. That's okay with me. It could have happened in OZ and will be part of the main story-line to be released in the next movie. Who knows?

But as far as "fictional accounts" go, I'll be taking a Creative Writing course soon and could use these fictional characters of The-Girl, The-Friend and The-Bad-Pastor to relay an entirely different message. It would be fun, but I doubt that you will copy-pasta it into any of your future posts. I highly doubt it.

You are quite right, of course, and if I have at all veered towards the unfair, I'm sorry.

I guess my point, such as it was, was that the pulpit shouldn't be abused whereby divine, Biblical authority is seemingly invoked to press what is one person's subjective preferences on others. I guess this is what the narrative, however imperfect (and it is), was about.

Appreciate your comments given.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

@Free Christian :

I certainly respect your experience; FYI, @one truth has described hers, below:

I wanted it to be a tattoo people ask about. And I do get asked about it ALL the time. Sometimes people just say "oh" when I tell them what it means. But some people get really stoked when I say it means God Almighty. A good witnessing tool!

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

I know next to nothing about tattooing, but there are plenty of things which are best decided after thoroughly informing oneself. If someone understands any risks and still decides to do it, well...their freedom to do so. It's their life.
I myself would probably prefer just drawing on myself with a pen now and then.

questdriven:

You like doing this, from time to time, do you?

(You're an artist, anyway.)

Blessings.