Post-Trib Model Failure: The Attitude of The Unbelieving World

[NJBeliever]

Originally Posted by Hitch
Jesus says the resurrection is on the last day and you say its not. In fact it seems you're saying what Jesus refers to in Jn 6 has already happened, correct? And or that John 6 applies only to Israel.? You'll never arrive at the truth that way.


So are you saying that Jesus as per J 6 is NOT speaking of bodily resurrection ?

I am saying the Messianic Jews of the 70th week/Great Trib, dead and alive will be supernaturally gathered to Jesus at the "last day." As I said before, the gathering is also mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 when the angels gather the elect which is ISRAEL. And finally, it is fulfilling Moses same prophecy. This is the explanation and interpretation, in context, and confirmed by other Scripture of the John 6 passage you cite repeatedly in these forums.

 

[Eventide]

Things which shall be hereafter...

Here's a future prophecy from Matthew 25 concerning the Lord's coming and His Kingdom..

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..

This is undeniably a future event.. when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord Jesus Christ.. and He alone will be King over all the earth in that Day, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

Anyone that is not a bio Hebrew was a Gentil. The promise was given to Abraham by faith and it was always by faith. For a literal millinial reign. and i see no hystorical evidence to support this announcment of the kingdom of God on earth.

the hebrew race accouts for less then 5% of the human populous.

 

[Hitch]

I am saying the Messianic Jews of the 70th week/Great Trib, dead and alive will be supernaturally gathered to Jesus at the "last day." As I said before, the gathering is also mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 when the angels gather the elect which is ISRAEL. And finally, it is fulfilling Moses same prophecy. This is the explanation and interpretation, in context, and confirmed by other Scripture of the John 6 passage you cite repeatedly in these forums.

So are you saying that Jesus as per J 6 is NOT speaking of bodily resurrection ?

I read your response above and I still dont know that answer to my question.

Its just dawned on me that you might be saying that resurrection is only for 'messianic jews; ?

 

[Hitch]

There is no doubt that a Christian has already become a part of God's kingdom, although that still does not mean that the kingdom of God is on earth.. AND WE KNOW that because Paul says this..

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

The church of God is not an earthly entity like Israel is.. its (our) citizenship is IN HEAVEN..

Thats hardly news Eventide.

God's kingdom is very real, no doubt about it.. although it is NOT on earth right now..

Thats idiotc. Every member of the kingdom alive in the flesh, save Chrsit himself is on earth .On earth and in the kingdom. As the parable demonstrates the prophecied kingdom is historical, it exists in time and on earth. It is plain that you hadnt considered Christ's own defintion of his kingdom, too bad, niether did the jews of the first century.

unless of course you do believe that this present evil world is His kingdom.. but that's a little ridiculous if you ask me.. all the war, hatred, crime, disobedience, deception... yeah.. it must be the kingdom of Christ.. lol



Evil will NOT be a part of Christ's kingdom.. right now they're growing together as the parable teaches us although when Christ comes He will destroy the man of sin and put away all that is evil...

Interesting you missed the conflict. You missed completely despite our Lord's parable and our Lords own, not my, explanation a simple 'biblical fact' as you like to say;

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So iether Jesus got the timing all wrong, or you did.

that's what Matthew 25 says plainly.. do you deny that ?

Tell me, who said that evil would be part of Christ's kingdom?

I haven't denied anything, or said that the kingdom of God doesn't exist.. our citizenship is IN HEAVEN and that's a biblical fact.. just as it's a biblical fact that SATAN is the god of this present evil world.. but some people don't like biblical facts.. they like what other men tell them and therefore most today are Amillenial... but sorry, I don't buy into that nonsense that Satan is bound and the nations are no longer deceived.. I do have eyes to see.

So did Caiaphas.


Then you agree that the kingdom is today in operation, growing under the leadership of the King, here on the earth?

 

[Lehigh3]

Yes, the New Jerusalem came when the old earthly Jerusalem became unholy zion.

Heaven & earth was Israel's name also (see Deut.)

This is the N.J. church universal- where "righteousness dwells" How so? Because it is a spiritual kingdom - this kingdom of God. As Christ said, it is inside you & not a material kingdom.

We are the Bride on earth. The kingdom of heaven itself with God is where we go upon death. Just as Christ returned & received those to himself those who did die in Christ. We go to Him. The "first resurrection" as a group occurred. It follows that there are more (yes, many more individual resurrections). Death & Hades are no more. No more waiting in Hades. Christ was the firstfruits from the dead.

At the transfiguration on the mount, that is how I think we will look in the spiritual realm post-mortem.

Yes, we are a kingdom on earth too. We are in the world but not of the world.

Rev.5:8-10,
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth

 

[NJBeliever]

Its just dawned on me that you might be saying that resurrection is only for 'messianic jews; ?

YES, that is what I'm saying. I don't know how much more clearly I can put it when I write "Jews" and "ISRAEL" in the sentence. LOL.

But again, I am referring to the "last day" gathering, which is not the rapture. That is a completely different event.

The rest of your questions were answered clearly in my prior post. And my point in my responses to you is that you created an artificial presumption regarding resurrections that has no Biblical support. The only example you provided does not support you point at all.

 

[Hitch]

YES, that is what I'm saying. I don't know how much more clearly I can put it when I write "Jews" and "ISRAEL" in the sentence. LOL.

But again, I am referring to the "last day" gathering, which is not the rapture. That is a completely different event.

The rest of your questions were answered clearly in my prior post. And my point in my responses to you is that you created an artificial presumption regarding resurrections that has no Biblical support. The only example you provided does not support you point at all.

Nonsense. The church at large has expected universial resurrection at the return of Christ for 2,000 years.
Based ,largely on what Jesus said in Jn 6.

In fact I've never even heard of this view before, can you quote any comentators/authors in support? Niether am I aware of any church that teaches this.

Originally Posted by Hitch
Its just dawned on me that you might be saying that resurrection is only for 'messianic jews; ?



YES, that is what I'm saying. I don't know how much more clearly I can put it when I write "Jews" and "ISRAEL" in the sentence. LOL

 

[Lehigh3]

by H,

Nonsense. The church at large has expected universial resurrection at the return of Christ for 2,000 years.
Based ,largely on what Jesus said in Jn 6.

That's what you get for listening to tradition. Waiting for fulfillment & salvation for 2k years! Darn that orthodoxy!
BTW, what are you being saved from if you say you are saved?
And John6? Why didn't you post the verse?
I read in Jn.6 how Jesus said He came down from heaven to do the will of the Father. I do not note Him saying that the Father wanted Him to come back to earth again.

So why hasn't the prophecy come to pass in 2k years?

I wait on God for days or months sometimes, but He always shows up when He must know that it is important to. All for His glory!

What do you expect if Jesus comes back? Which is a fallacy anyway but -to do what that He hasn't already done?

 

[Sam21]

YES, that is what I'm saying. I don't know how much more clearly I can put it when I write "Jews" and "ISRAEL" in the sentence. LOL.

But again, I am referring to the "last day" gathering, which is not the rapture. That is a completely different event.

The rest of your questions were answered clearly in my prior post. And my point in my responses to you is that you created an artificial presumption regarding resurrections that has no Biblical support. The only example you provided does not support you point at all.

Sorry but Jesus described the gathering of the CHURCH,Jesus gave His message to the church fathers and told them to teach that message to the church, the church BEFORE the "supposed"rapture taught by Paul was already post-trib,also, Paul described the same gathering that Jesus gave the apostles,there is no secret rapture before the post-trib gathering that Jesus and Paul gave the church, just a demonic pre-trib doctrine designed to blow christians away when Christ does not appear but the antichrist does...read the bible it is all in there.

 

[Eventide]

Then you agree that the kingdom is today in operation, growing under the leadership of the King, here on the earth?

If you been listening to anything that I say then you would know that I do believe that Christians today are part of God's kingdom, although their citizenship is in heaven and not on earth. Christ is NOT reigning on earth right now and neither are Christians.. I would say that only a blind person couldn't understand that.

Kingdom literally means the King's Domain.. and the god of this present evil world right now is Satan.. the one who has blinded the minds of those who believe not the glorious gospel of Christ.. and that's also why God is calling people OUT OF THE WORLD.. because it is passing away.. AND THEN, when Revelation 11 is fulfilled, the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of the Lord Jesus Christ.. and THEN Christ's kingdom will be here on earth.

No comment on my Matthew 25 post.. lol..

 

[Eventide]

Some great verses from LUKE 22..

And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Now this is strange... why would the Lord say 'until' the kingdom of God shall come if it was already here..?

...

Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

From Matthew 19 and Matthew 25 we KNOW that this will be in the regeneration, when the Lord comes again and THEN sits upon the throne of His glory with His Apostles sitting upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel..

 

[Hitch]

If you been listening to anything that I say then you would know that I do believe that Christians today are part of God's kingdom, although their citizenship is in heaven and not on earth. Christ is NOT reigning on earth right now and neither are Christians..

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Fortunately Paul was blind only for a short time

I would say that only a blind person couldn't understand that.

So since Christ is not in session, what is it you think he is doing?

Kingdom literally means the King's Domain.. and the god of this present evil world right now is Satan.. the one who has blinded the minds of those who believe not the glorious gospel of Christ.. and that's also why God is calling people OUT OF THE WORLD..

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.



because it is passing away.. AND THEN, when Revelation 11 is fulfilled, the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of the Lord Jesus Christ.. and THEN Christ's kingdom will be here on earth.

No comment on my Matthew 25 post.. lol..[/QUOTE]

 

[Hitch]

Re: Some great verses from LUKE 22..

And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Now this is strange... why would the Lord say 'until' the kingdom of God shall come if it was already here..?



...

Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Believers feast at His table today, and these same believer subject themselves to the Apostles every time they study and consider the NT.

From Matthew 19 and Matthew 25 we KNOW that this will be in the regeneration, when the Lord comes again and THEN sits upon the throne of His glory with His Apostles sitting upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel..

Its almost tragic , but do you really think reference the to the 12 thrones is literal? Since you think being seated with Christ in the heavenly places is not reigning, its important you explain just what being seated with Christ in the heavenlies means.

 

[reba]

Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Some great verses from LUKE 22..

Believers feast at His table today, and these same believer subject themselves to the Apostles every time they study and consider the NT.

Yes they do.. we do this in remembering Him in His death TIL HE COMES..

You do believe that the Lord is literally coming again, don't you ?

Its almost tragic , but do you really think reference the to the 12 thrones is literal? Since you think being seated with Christ in the heavenly places is not reigning, its important you explain just what being seated with Christ in the heavenlies means.

Of course it's literal.. Israel is an earthly entity with earthly ordinances.. and they're blinded in part UNTIL the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

Christ is sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high and He is WAITING til His enemies be made His footstool.. and we know that Satan is the god of this present evil world (evidently you deny this)..who has blinded the minds of those who do not believe the glorious gospel of Christ.. even now, while Christ is building His church and calling out a people for His name..

No comment on Matt 25 ? lol..

How about Rev 11.. do you believe that it's fulfilled already where it says that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord Jesus Christ ?

If so, then how can satan be the god of this present evil world.. as the bible clearly teaches..? How can James write.. Resist the Devil and he shall flee from you..?

 

[Hitch]

Re: Some great verses from LUKE 22..

Yes they do.. we do this in remembering Him in His death TIL HE COMES..

You do believe that the Lord is literally coming again, don't you ?

Of course ,but what is your point? The feasting takes place in the presence of the King, yet it is accomplished on the earth,until 'he comes'

Of course it's literal.. Israel is an earthly entity with earthly ordinances.. and they're blinded in part UNTIL the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

Tell me ,what advantage would Christ have being personally on earth? What advantage would the church have?

Christ is sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high and He is WAITING til His enemies be made His footstool..

And the last enemy is death, can death be completely defeated by any means other than resurrection ?

and we know that Satan is the god of this present evil world (evidently you deny this)..

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

who has blinded the minds of those who do not believe the glorious gospel of Christ.. even now, while Christ is building His church and calling out a people for His name..

No comment on Matt 25 ? lol..

How about Rev 11.. do you believe that it's fulfilled already where it says that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord Jesus Christ ?

Well I dont see very many Roman Legions, but I see lots of churches. I turn on the radio and I can hear that more people hear the Gospel in one day than all who heard Jesus speak. Ive noticed very few Pharisees as well. Is the church larger today or smaller than it was in Paul's day?

If so, then how can satan be the god of this present evil world.. as the bible clearly teaches..?

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

It seems you fervently desire an instant top down kingdom in which you want some small seat of your own.. Too bad . The kingdom Jesus announced and inaugurated grows slowly, over time. This kingdom is ruled by service, in the Spirit of God. It is defined ,not as meat and drink, or geography and power, but as Joy Peace and Righteousness in the Holy Spirit. A current reality.

 

[warhorse]

YES, that is what I'm saying. I don't know how much more clearly I can put it when I write "Jews" and "ISRAEL" in the sentence. LOL.

But again, I am referring to the "last day" gathering, which is not the rapture. That is a completely different event.

The rest of your questions were answered clearly in my prior post. And my point in my responses to you is that you created an artificial presumption regarding resurrections that has no Biblical support. The only example you provided does not support you point at all.

That is incorrect. All of OT prophacy points to the DOTL for the Jewish resurection. If you go back and check on your beloved rapture texts 1 thess 4, you will find it is stated as on the DOTL in 1 thes 5 v1-3, and 1 cor 15 The (victory over death) points to isaiah 25 another account of the DOTL. It is the DOTL as spoken by peter that comes as a thief in the night. I think you may also want to study romans, eph and Gal to learn the relationship between the jews and the church.

 

[warhorse]

Re: Things which shall be hereafter...

Here's a future prophecy from Matthew 25 concerning the Lord's coming and His Kingdom..

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..

This is undeniably a future event.. when the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our Lord Jesus Christ.. and He alone will be King over all the earth in that Day, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Jesus Christ.

Agreed, absolutly 100 % This is also the 7th trump per Rev 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And after the tribulation per Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

 

[Hitch]

Re: Things which shall be hereafter...

Agreed, absolutly 100 % This is also the 7th trump per Rev 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And after the tribulation per Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.

Hmmm Was Jesus on' the throne of his glory' when Stephen had his vision?