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Praying to the Saints in Heaven

jaybo said:
Why are you changing the subject again? You wrote "Partaking of the bread and wine is a good example, because partaking of his body and blood is a confession that we are ready to have our body broken and blood spilled for our faith in him."

Now you write "lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds Heb.12:3"

What does either have to do with sharing bread and wine to remember Jesus?
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Paul didn't mean, Remember to eat a cracker and sip grape juice so you don't get weary. He meant, Remember how our Lord was persecuted when you are being persecuted... so you don't get weary.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you Jn.14:27.

Our dear Savior was a few hours away from getting tortured and said,

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. Jn.14:1

It passes human understanding, but the point is, Jesus said his followers would suffer as he did. It's a matter of being prepared.
jaybo said:
Are you obsessed with suffering instead of resting in God's love, joy, and peace?
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I want Gods' love, joy and peace when I am suffering,

jaybo said:
Are you a Catholic?
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No. i have no denomination.
 
journeyman said:
That's what atonement means, at-one-ment.
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

To be in communion or fellowship with our Lord, who is God.
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That is not what atonement is about

journeyman said:
Of course it isn't. If God (Chrisr) hadn't interceded( in holding his anger against people sinning against him,

enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2
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Interceding is not holding back anger.
 
wondering said:
As to the point on atonement...I never thought of this.
Is atonement and/or propitiation a type of intercession?
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Atonement, or reconciliation is being brought into a right relationship with God.
It's offered by Christs' intercession, of which propitiation is an example.
To propitiate is to assuage anger, placate or turn wrath away.

wondering said:
One doing something in the place of someone else---is this intercession?
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Yes. Christ representing our Father and so,

the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. Psa.69:9

now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. Jn.15:24
 
journeyman said:
Atonement, or reconciliation is being brought into a right relationship with God.
It's offered by Christs' intercession, of which propitiation is an example.
To propitiate is to assuage anger, placate or turn wrath away.


Yes. Christ representing our Father and so,

the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. Psa.69:9

now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. Jn.15:24
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Yes. I agree.
I do not agree with The Penal Substitution Theory, however, which you brought up in the above post.
 
journeyman said:
Paul didn't mean, Remember to eat a cracker and sip grape juice so you don't get weary. He meant, Remember how our Lord was persecuted when you are being persecuted... so you don't get weary.

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you Jn.14:27.

Our dear Savior was a few hours away from getting tortured and said,

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. Jn.14:1

It passes human understanding, but the point is, Jesus said his followers would suffer as he did. It's a matter of being prepared.

I want Gods' love, joy and peace when I am suffering,


No. i have no denomination.
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I have no interest in discussing this with you further. I have bread and wine to remember Christ, period. If you want to suffer go ahead.
 
Mungo said:
That is not what atonement is about
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Yes it is. Atonement occurs as a result of covering someone or something with his blood and his blood was shed because of the sinful conduct of evil men against him.
Of course he allowed himself to be sinned against, instead of pouring his wrath out on them. His blood, life, Spirit was poured out and covers the repentant.for all to see.
Mungo said:
Interceding is not holding back anger.
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Jesus is God. He doesn't need to intercede between mankind and a 3rd party, or appease a 3rd party who is angry with mankind, or stand between mankind and a Judge. He is the Judge.
 
jaybo said:
I have no interest in discussing this with you further. I have bread and wine to remember Christ, period. If you want to suffer go ahead.
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I said christians should be prepared to suffer, as Christ taught. Remembering how our Lord suffered for doing right is what those things are about,

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring usto God 1Pet.1:17-18
 
journeyman said:
Yes it is. Atonement occurs as a result of covering someone or something with his blood and his blood was shed because of the sinful conduct of evil men against him.
Of course he allowed himself to be sinned against, instead of pouring his wrath out on them. His blood, life, Spirit was poured out and covers the repentant.for all to see.

Jesus is God. He doesn't need to intercede between mankind and a 3rd party, or appease a 3rd party who is angry with mankind, or stand between mankind and a Judge. He is the Judge.
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It seems we disagree and as it's getting off the topic I'll leave it there.
 
Mungo said:
I agree that we should ( and do) pray to God.
But I disagree that we should only pray to God.

Something worth noting is that in the Greek there are several words which we translate "pray".
One is parakaleo. According to a Greek dictionary this means:- ask, beg, implore, petition, pray, request, solicit, urge, woo.
Two examples from the KJV
Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. (Acts 24:4 - KJV)
Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health (Paul in Acts 27:34 - KJV)

There is a different word proseuchomai that is generally used for addressing God as when Jesus says: But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret (Mt 6:6).

Greek speaking Orthodox use proseuchomai for addressing God and parakaleo for addressing Mary & the Saints. We have only the one word, “pray”, and hence the misunderstandings that arise because most protestants, who do not pray to Mary, do not understand this distinction and assume that Catholics pray to Mary in the same way that they pray to God.
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Thanks for clarifying that Mungo, I do not disagree sir. It seems that more modern English versions have rephrased the usage of parakaleo likely to avoid misunderstanding of what is stated.
 
Mungo said:
It seems we disagree and as it's getting off the topic I'll leave it there.
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Sorry for getting off topic. Again, I have no problem asking other believers to pray, but it does seem that the Catholic church goes beyong that, as Mary seems venerated in a way that goes beyond the esteem of an elder sister in Christ.
 
journeyman said:
I said christians should be prepared to suffer, as Christ taught. Remembering how our Lord suffered for doing right is what those things are about,

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring usto God 1Pet.1:17-18
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This has nothing to do with your claim that sharing bread and wine relates to suffering.
 
jaybo said:
This has nothing to do with your claim that sharing bread and wine relates to suffering.
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It has everything to do with it. When our Lord asked,

Are ye able to drink of the cup thatI shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. Mt.20:22

He wasn't asking whether they could swallow wine from a cup,

Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
Jn18:11

And they all forsook him, and fled. Mk.14:50

They drank from his cup later.
 
journeyman said:
It has everything to do with it. When our Lord asked,

Are ye able to drink of the cup thatI shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. Mt.20:22

He wasn't asking whether they could swallow wine from a cup,

Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
Jn18:11

And they all forsook him, and fled. Mk.14:50

They drank from his cup later.
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These examples are clearly out of context.

Matthew 20:20-23, "Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to him with her sons, and kneeling before him, she asked a favor of him. And he said to her, “What do you want?” She said to him, “Declare that these two sons of mine will sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They said to him, “We are able.” He said to them, “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left, this is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” This has nothing to do with drinking the wine and eating the bread that Jesus described at the Passover meal with His disciples. And it's clearly figurative, since there was no wine present.

Neither does John 18:11

"Drinking from the cup" is clearly figurative. Stop twisting Scripture to try to prove your fallacious point!
 
journeyman said:
The injuries inflicted on him because of mankins sins. He suffered false witnesses and murder, not to mention being ridiculed and many other things which he never should have subjected himself to. This is how the Lamb bore our sins, but it was twisted into, "God is punishing his Son in place of mankind.
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I don't remember anymore....didn't you say that WE also must suffer?
Did you mean persecution or just everyday matters?

As to God punishing His Son, that goes into atonement theories and is a totally different subject.
I had started a thread on it a few years ago but no one seemed interested --- maybe we should start one up again?
Yeah. Think I will. The PST you said is heretical. That even requires a response...
 
jaybo said:
These examples are clearly out of context.

Matthew 20:20-23, "Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to him with her sons, and kneeling before him, she asked a favor of him. And he said to her, “What do you want?” She said to him, “Declare that these two sons of mine will sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They said to him, “We are able.” He said to them, “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left, this is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” This has nothing to do with drinking the wine and eating the bread that Jesus described at the Passover meal with His disciples. And it's clearly figurative, since there was no wine present.

Neither does John 18:11

"Drinking from the cup" is clearly figurative. Stop twisting Scripture to try to prove your fallacious point!
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I think it could help if you looked at a commentary from any theologian you respect concerning the "cup" spoken of in Mt.20 & Jn.18.
I said from the get go the cup is only symbolic.
 
journeyman said:
I think it could help if you looked at a commentary from any theologian you respect concerning the "cup" spoken of in Mt.20 & Jn.18.
I said from the get go the cup is only symbolic.
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I don't care what you said. I care what the Bible says. You are applying the symbolic cup to the literal cup.
 
wondering said:
I don't remember anymore....didn't you say that WE also must suffer?
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Our Lord taught that people who follow him, would have people who would listen to the gospel and others who wouldn't,

The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. Jn.15:20

Easy enough to understand that our Savior wasn't facing a death sentence because of any sin, except by those who sinned in putting him there. He only stayed there because if he wasn't longsuffering, they would have been killed.
wondering said:
Did you mean persecution or just everyday matters?
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Any adversity we might face because of our faith in Christ. It could be as simple as someone making fun of us. The point is,

all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 2Tim.3:12

He's saying it because it was happening to him.....because he was following Jesus, not because the wrath of God was falling on him.
wondering said:
As to God punishing His Son, that goes into atonement theories and is a totally different subject.

I had started a thread on it a few years ago but no one seemed interested --- maybe we should start one up again?

Yeah. Think I will. The PST you said is heretical. That even requires a response...
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I'll be happy to explain the grace of God as I understand him.
 
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