Praying to the Saints in Heaven

[journeymanisnothing]

Wow.
Will study this more in the morning.
Thanks!

Also look at circumcision. The symbol of the faith of Abraham became, "I don't need to live by faith. I just need to a cut a piece of flesh off."
This is why Paul said,

as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. Rom.3:8

Please wondering, look at Acts. See what that book says about the formation of the church. This is key to understanding why Paul appeared to be saying "We no longer have to keep the law." Paul never taught that believers don't have to keep the law to be saved. But what he meant was, the ritual of circumcision isn't what saves anyone. What saves people is living by faith in God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Also look at circumcision. The symbol of the faith of Abraham became, "I don't need to live by faith. I just need to a cut a piece of flesh off."
This is why Paul said,

as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. Rom.3:8

Please wondering, look at Acts. See what that book says about the formation of the church. This is key to understanding why Paul appeared to be saying "We no longer have to keep the law." Paul never taught that believers don't have to keep the law to be saved. But what he meant was, the ritual of circumcision isn't what saves anyone. What saves people is living by faith in God.

Oh yes.
Outward signs mean nothing without inner faith and honoring God.
Tomorrow...

 

[Highway54]

See post #70 above.
Also see the OP.

Is that an I agree, or disagree sir?

 

[Mungo]

I believe it is, but the problem is when people don't look at the circumstances. They don't look at why the speaker is saying what he's saying and why it appears to disagree with other scripture. They get carried away with an idea and begin mixing it with other scripture which is unrelated.
For instance, in this thread, I was directed to a Catholic webstie where praying to saints was defended by linking,

He always lives to make intercession for them. Heb.7:25
with
Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 1Cor.11:1

but these don't belong together, because the "intercession" in Heb.7 was as the one and only High Priest,
Shedding his blood = his desire not to destroy sinners. That's his intercession.

Please explain where scripture says that Christ shedding his blood was intercession.

Please explain why Christ shed his blood once but "he always lives to make intercession" for us.

 

[Mungo]

Is that an I agree, or disagree sir?

I agree that we should ( and do) pray to God.
But I disagree that we should only pray to God.

Something worth noting is that in the Greek there are several words which we translate "pray".
One is parakaleo. According to a Greek dictionary this means:- ask, beg, implore, petition, pray, request, solicit, urge, woo.
Two examples from the KJV
Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. (Acts 24:4 - KJV)
Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health (Paul in Acts 27:34 - KJV)

There is a different word proseuchomai that is generally used for addressing God as when Jesus says: But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret (Mt 6:6).

Greek speaking Orthodox use proseuchomai for addressing God and parakaleo for addressing Mary & the Saints. We have only the one word, “pray”, and hence the misunderstandings that arise because most protestants, who do not pray to Mary, do not understand this distinction and assume that Catholics pray to Mary in the same way that they pray to God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Please explain where scripture says that Christ shedding his blood was intercession.

he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isa.53:12

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them Lk.23:34

That is, forgive them for sinning against us by piercing my hands and feet, driving a crown of thorns into my head with a reed.

Please explain why Christ shed his blood once but "he always lives to make intercession" for us.

Because his blood is his life, his eternal life,

feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own
blood. Act.20:28

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev.17:1

His blood was shed forbearing people sinning against him

 

[Mungo]

he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isa.53:12

he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isa.53:12
It doesn't say something like he bre the sin of many, thereby making intercession, or someth8ng similar.
They are two separate acts.

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them Lk.23:34


That is, forgive them for sinning against us by piercing my hands and feet, driving a crown of thorns into my head with a reed.

Yes, those that did that, not a general intercession for all of us.

Because his blood is his life, his eternal life,

feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own
blood. Act.20:28

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev.17:1

His blood was shed forbearing people sinning against him

All that was about atonement not intercession.

 

[jaybo]

To me, it's like how many early Jewish converts still wanted to keep themselves "pure" by performing rituals. There's nothing wrong with this. Paul saw such believers as "weaker" believers. Rom.14 explains this well.
Ritual isn't harmful, unless it begins to replace what it actually symbolizes.
Partaking of the bread and wine is a good example, because partaking of his body and blood is a confession that we are ready to have our body broken and blood spilled for our faith in him. Phil.3:10 says it perfectly.

I disagree with "Partaking of the bread and wine is a good example, because partaking of his body and blood is a confession that we are ready to have our body broken and blood spilled for our faith in him." Jesus said to eat the bread and drink the wine in remembrance of Him.

 

[jaybo]

Please explain where scripture says that Christ shedding his blood was intercession.

Please explain why Christ shed his blood once but "he always lives to make intercession" for us.

He is divine. He shed His blood on the cross, but is alive in heaven.

 

[jaybo]

I agree that we should ( and do) pray to God.
But I disagree that we should only pray to God.

Something worth noting is that in the Greek there are several words which we translate "pray".
One is parakaleo. According to a Greek dictionary this means:- ask, beg, implore, petition, pray, request, solicit, urge, woo.
Two examples from the KJV
Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. (Acts 24:4 - KJV)
Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health (Paul in Acts 27:34 - KJV)

There is a different word proseuchomai that is generally used for addressing God as when Jesus says: But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret (Mt 6:6).

Greek speaking Orthodox use proseuchomai for addressing God and parakaleo for addressing Mary & the Saints. We have only the one word, “pray”, and hence the misunderstandings that arise because most protestants, who do not pray to Mary, do not understand this distinction and assume that Catholics pray to Mary in the same way that they pray to God.

Praying to dead people in unscriptural. Twisting the meaning of "pray" doesn't prove anything.

For example, Genesis 12:13, "Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee." in modern English is "So tell them you are my sister so that it may go well for me because of you and my life will be spared on account of you." Abram was not praying to Sarah.

Genesis 13:8, "And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren." Abram was not praying to Lot.

Genesis 16:2, "And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai." Sarai was not praying to Abram.

And so on... There are many examples of this word in Scripture which clearly do not mean "pray", as in addressing a solemn request or expression of thanks to a deity.

 

[jaybo]

Both in this and in your previous post you have made no attempt to provide evidence for your claims or attempt to refute the points in the OP or post #3 or indeed post #105. Have you even read them?

Please provide scriptural evidence or desist from these claims.

Please provide evidence of praying to dead people, especially those who Catholics call "saints", in Scripture.

 

[Mungo]

He is divine. He shed His blood on the cross, but is alive in heaven.

That doesn't answer either of the points I made

 

[Mungo]

Praying to dead people in unscriptural. Twisting the meaning of "pray" doesn't prove anything.

I'm not twisting anything.

For example, Genesis 12:13, "Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee." in modern English is "So tell them you are my sister so that it may go well for me because of you and my life will be spared on account of you." Abram was not praying to Sarah.

Genesis 13:8, "And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren." Abram was not praying to Lot.

Genesis 16:2, "And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai." Sarai was not praying to Abram.

And so on... There are many examples of this word in Scripture which clearly do not mean "pray", as in addressing a solemn request or expression of thanks to a deity.

The examples you give, and the ones I gave from Acts in post #105, are examples of praying.

I agree they are not "pray", as in addressing a solemn request or expression of thanks to a deity which is a point I made in post #'105. But they are valid examples of the use of the work "pray" in a different sense of "pray".

 

[Mungo]

Please provide evidence of praying to dead people, especially those who Catholics call "saints", in Scripture.

As I have pointed out before we are not praying to "dead" people.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isa.53:12
It doesn't say something like he bre the sin of many, thereby making intercession, or someth8ng similar.
They are two separate acts.

If God wasn't sinned against, intercession wouldn't be necessary. His intercession caused delay in judgement.

Yes, those that did that, not a general intercession for all of us.

In Christ, he showed how he bore "the sins of the world", sins which are common among all men, sins that are committed against his Father daily. He Interceded by pouring his life out, pouring out his love and patience to sinner who hurt him.
Intercession is also made against sinners,

Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them. For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul. Psa.35:6-7

All that was about atonement not intercession.

Atonement is being brought into oneness with God. Atonement isn't possible without intercession,

For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down. Lk.13:7-9

He interceded for 1 more year. One more year for the tree to bear fruit (abide in him), or the tree would be firewood.

 

[Mungo]

If God wasn't sinned against, intercession wouldn't be necessary. His intercession caused delay in judgement.

In Christ, he showed how he bore "the sins of the world", sins which are common among all men, sins that are committed against his Father daily. He Interceded by pouring his life out, pouring out his love and patience to sinner who hurt him.
Intercession is also made against sinners,

Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them. For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul. Psa.35:6-7

Atonement is being brought into oneness with God. Atonement isn't possible without intercession,

For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down. Lk.13:7-9

He interceded for 1 more year. One more year for the tree to bear fruit (abide in him), or the tree would be firewood.

Where does scripture say "Atonement is being brought into oneness with God. Atonement isn't possible without intercession"

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Heb.12:3I disagree with "Partaking of the bread and wine is a good example, because partaking of his body and blood is a confession that we are ready to have our body broken and blood spilled for our faith in him." Jesus said to eat the bread and drink the wine in remembrance of Him.

Remember him,

lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds Heb.12:3

 

[GodsGrace]

Where does scripture say "Atonement is being brought into oneness with God. Atonement isn't possible without intercession"

journeyman has a good point.
When Jesus said FATHER FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO, He was, in effect,
interceding for the Jews and Romans that put Him to death.
HE was asking Father to forgive them, instead of their asking forgiveness for themselves.
This is intercession, I'd say.

As to the point on atonement...I never thought of this.
Is atonement and/or propitiation a type of intercession?
One doing something in the place of someone else---is this intercession?
The Satisfaction Theory of Atonement might cover this.
Maybe the Christus Victor?

 

[jaybo]

Remember him,

lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds Heb.12:3

Why are you changing the subject again? You wrote "Partaking of the bread and wine is a good example, because partaking of his body and blood is a confession that we are ready to have our body broken and blood spilled for our faith in him."

Now you write "lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds Heb.12:3"

What does either have to do with sharing bread and wine to remember Jesus?

Are you obsessed with suffering instead of resting in God's love, joy, and peace? Are you a Catholic?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Where does scripture say "Atonement is being brought into oneness with God.

That's what atonement means, at-one-ment.
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

To be in communion or fellowship with our Lord, who is God.

Atonement isn't possible without intercession"

Of course it isn't. If God (Chrisr) hadn't interceded( in holding his anger against people sinning against him,

enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2