Praying to the Saints in Heaven

[GodsGrace]

We know from scripture that those who are in heaven are aware of what is going on on earth.

How?

 

[GodsGrace]

How?

You already answered this Mungo.
Of course God could do whatever He wants.
I feel like there's so much we can't know.
Also, I can't find an ECF that believed those in heaven could hear us.
Is it any wonder I can't be Catholic.

 

[jaybo]

I've never heard a priest say we should pray to saints. In the 23 years I've been here, at least.
The priests and one monk I know do use saints as examples. There's a culture here regarding saints. Maybe because so many were martyrs and died terrible deaths that the church felt they were due some special consideration.

I don't know why a person would pray to a saint. Only God is omnipresent. Could they even hear prayer? OTOH, who could be sure? Jesus never mentioned this.

Saints are those who are sanctified -- in Christ. There is no special class of people in Christ who are called "saints"; that is a Catholic invention.

 

[GodsGrace]

Consider these two texts
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)
And
“Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)
If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

The angels in heaven rejoice when a sinner repents - Lk 15:7 & 10 -so they must know that a sinner on earth has repented.

The souls under the altar know that the time of their vindication has not yet come on the earth (Rev 6:10)

If they know what is going on on earth it is because God wills that they know and He will make it possible.

I never could bring myself to using Rev for doctrine. Luke 15 was my theme for catechism one year. I tried to inculcate reading the NT to the kids and to stress how much Jesus loves them and explain His life story.

We did have to teach them about a ferw saints, but not to pray to them. In the church in town, they've retired the statues to the side of the church where the confessionals are. It's one of the naves. The other one was bombed in WWII and was never rebuilt.

I wasn't told this officially, but I get the feeling the church is trying to make some changes, and mean before this Pope.

Anyway, I find your posts very helpful.

 

[Mungo]

You already answered this Mungo.
Of course God could do whatever He wants.
I feel like there's so much we can't know.
Also, I can't find an ECF that believed those in heaven could hear us.
Is it any wonder I can't be Catholic.

From Scripture Catholic:

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, (A.D. 350).

"Thus might you console us; but what of the flock? Would you first promise the oversight and leadership of yourself, a man under whose wings we all would gladly repose, and for whose words we thirst more eagerly than men suffering from thirst for the purest fountain? Secondly, persuade us that the good shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep has not even now left us; but is present, and tends and guides, and knows his own, and is known of his own, and, though bodily invisible, is spiritually recognized, and defends his flock against the wolves, and allows no one to climb over into the fold as a robber and traitor; to pervert and steal away, by the voice of strangers, souls under the fair guidance of the truth. Aye, I am well assured that his intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay which obscured it, and holds intercourse naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest Mind; being promoted, if it be not rash to say so, to the rank and confidence of an angel." John Chrysostom, On the Death of his Father, Oration(A.D. 374).

“It is true that Christians pay religious honour to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers.” Augustine, Against Faustus (AD 400)


"If Apostles and martyrs, whilst still in the flesh and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, their victories, their triumphs? Moses, one man, obtains God’s pardon for six hundred thousand armed men, and Stephen prays for his persecutors. When they are with Christ, will they be less powerful? Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were granted to his prayers, whilst they were in a ship with him. Shall he close his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his gospel?" (Jerome 4th century)

 

[GodsGrace]

Saints are those who are sanctified -- in Christ. There is no special class of people in Christ who are called "saints"; that is a Catholic invention.

I know this Jaybo.
Actually the Monsignor here always taught that we are all saints.

However, I won't have to burn at the stake for my belief, get eaten by lions, roasted, or give up my comfy life.

I do think we should hold those persons in high esteem even if we don't pray to them. I think this is originally what the intention was.

 

[jaybo]

Nothing wrong with at all. Indeed we should, and do, pray directly to God. But that doesn't preclude asking others to pray for us.



So according to your logic:

1. the only prayer we are allowed to pray is the "Our Father". No other prayer is allowed.

2. We must only pray directly to the Father. We are not allowed to pray to Jesus.

3. Paul was wrong to ask other people to pray for him.
"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak." (Eph 6:19-20)
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
And from Hebrews
“Pray for us; we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honourably in all things.” (Heb 13:18)

Asking dead people to pray for us is bizarre.

Why do you twist what I wrote? I never said that the only prayer we are allowed to pray is the "Our Father". No other prayer is allowed. What I said is that Jesus told us to pray to "our Father", not to a bunch of dead people.

Paul wasn't writing to dead people. He was asking other living people to pray for him.

Catholicism's obsession with dead people, including making statues of them and asking those idols to intercede on their behalf is really creepy. Worst, of course, is depicting Jesus as dead on the cross, whereas He is alive in heaven.

 

[jaybo]

I know this Jaybo.
Actually the Monsignor here always taught that we are all saints.

However, I won't have to burn at the stake for my belief, get eaten by lions, roasted, or give up my comfy life.

I do think we should hold those persons in high esteem even if we don't pray to them. I think this is originally what the intention was.

Perhaps, but that is not what Catholics do. They pray to those dead people to intercede on their behalf. Since I am God's child, why do I need an intermediary between me and my Father?

 

[GodsGrace]

From Scripture Catholic:

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, (A.D. 350).

"Thus might you console us; but what of the flock? Would you first promise the oversight and leadership of yourself, a man under whose wings we all would gladly repose, and for whose words we thirst more eagerly than men suffering from thirst for the purest fountain? Secondly, persuade us that the good shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep has not even now left us; but is present, and tends and guides, and knows his own, and is known of his own, and, though bodily invisible, is spiritually recognized, and defends his flock against the wolves, and allows no one to climb over into the fold as a robber and traitor; to pervert and steal away, by the voice of strangers, souls under the fair guidance of the truth. Aye, I am well assured that his intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay which obscured it, and holds intercourse naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest Mind; being promoted, if it be not rash to say so, to the rank and confidence of an angel." John Chrysostom, On the Death of his Father, Oration(A.D. 374).

“It is true that Christians pay religious honour to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers.” Augustine, Against Faustus (AD 400)


"If Apostles and martyrs, whilst still in the flesh and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, their victories, their triumphs? Moses, one man, obtains God’s pardon for six hundred thousand armed men, and Stephen prays for his persecutors. When they are with Christ, will they be less powerful? Paul says that two hundred and seventy-six souls were granted to his prayers, whilst they were in a ship with him. Shall he close his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his gospel?" (Jerome 4th century)

Thanks Mungo.
I'm sorry I gave you some work.
I'm aware of even more than the above....
But I mean EARLY church fathers.
Clement, Ignatius, iraneaus....
I have to look further into this.
Wish i had the set of their writings..

 

[Mungo]

Also, I can't find an ECF that believed those in heaven could hear us.

Here are some more ECFs from an Orthodox site:

St. Cyprian of Carthage (+258), writing to Pope Cornelius of Rome​

Let us be mutually mindful of each other, let us ever pray for each other, and if one of us shall, by the speediness of the Divine vouchsafement, depart hence first, let our love continue in the presence of the Lord, let not prayer for our brethren and sisters cease in the presence of the mercy of the Father.[iv]

St. Hilary of Poitiers (+368)​

To those who would fain stand, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defences of angels are wanting.[v]

St. Ephraim the Syrian (+373)​

Remember me, ye heirs of God, ye brethren of Christ, supplicate the Saviour earnestly for me, that I may be freed though Christ from him that fights against me day by day.[vi]


Ye victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Saviour; ye who have boldness of speech towards the Lord Himself; ye saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us that so we may love him.[vii]

Liturgy of St. Basil the Great​

By the command of Thine only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of Thy saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of Thy holy name which is invoked upon us.[xiii]

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (+386)​

We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God, by their prayers and intercessions, may receive our petitions.[xiv]

There are more on that site -

On the Intercession and Invocation of the Saints​

 

[GodsGrace]

Here are some more ECFs from an Orthodox site:

St. Cyprian of Carthage (+258), writing to Pope Cornelius of Rome​

Let us be mutually mindful of each other, let us ever pray for each other, and if one of us shall, by the speediness of the Divine vouchsafement, depart hence first, let our love continue in the presence of the Lord, let not prayer for our brethren and sisters cease in the presence of the mercy of the Father.[iv]

St. Hilary of Poitiers (+368)​

To those who would fain stand, neither the guardianship of saints nor the defences of angels are wanting.[v]

St. Ephraim the Syrian (+373)​

Remember me, ye heirs of God, ye brethren of Christ, supplicate the Saviour earnestly for me, that I may be freed though Christ from him that fights against me day by day.[vi]


Ye victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Saviour; ye who have boldness of speech towards the Lord Himself; ye saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us that so we may love him.[vii]

Liturgy of St. Basil the Great​

By the command of Thine only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of Thy saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of Thy holy name which is invoked upon us.[xiii]

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (+386)​

We then commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that God, by their prayers and intercessions, may receive our petitions.[xiv]

There are more on that site -

On the Intercession and Invocation of the Saints​

You see how it's in later times...
Thanks again.

 

[Mungo]

You see how it's in later times...
Thanks again.

Here is the earliest I have found so far.
Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (On Prayer II [A.D. 233])

 

[Mungo]

Asking dead people to pray for us is bizarre.

They are not dead. They are alive in heaven.

Why do you twist what I wrote? I never said that the only prayer we are allowed to pray is the "Our Father". No other prayer is allowed. What I said is that Jesus told us to pray to "our Father", not to a bunch of dead people.

You implied it was the only one.

Paul wasn't writing to dead people. He was asking other living people to pray for him.

We don't pray to dead people. We pray to those alive in heaven.

Catholicism's obsession with dead people, including making statues of them and asking those idols to intercede on their behalf is really creepy. Worst, of course, is depicting Jesus as dead on the cross, whereas He is alive in heaven.

So Jesus is dead but we pray to him.
Is that OK?

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is the earliest I have found so far.
Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (On Prayer II [A.D. 233])

That's pretty early on.
I know persons here (not a lot) that go to the cemetary every day practically to talk to their dead. This seems morose to me. Maybe they're right. It's one of those doctrine I can't be sure of.
And, by the way, catholics don't discuss this, they just accept it. They really trust the church.

 

[journeyman]

Yes J.
I understand.
But could persons in heaven hear us?
If I were in heaven I wouldn't want to know what's going on down here.

I believe saints who have died can see and hear us. I don't ask them to agree with me in prayer, but if someone does it's fine with me. Or if someone doesn't believe they know what's happening it's fine with me.
The only problem for me is when people start taking bits of scripture and forming doctrines that aren't true.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe saints who have died can see and hear us. I don't ask them to agree with me in prayer, but if someone does it's fine with me. Or if someone doesn't believe they know what's happening it's fine with me.
The only problem for me is when people start taking bits of scripture and forming doctrines that aren't true.

Is this taken from scripture IYO?

 

[journeyman]

Is this taken from scripture IYO?

I believe it is, but the problem is when people don't look at the circumstances. They don't look at why the speaker is saying what he's saying and why it appears to disagree with other scripture. They get carried away with an idea and begin mixing it with other scripture which is unrelated.
For instance, in this thread, I was directed to a Catholic webstie where praying to saints was defended by linking,

He always lives to make intercession for them. Heb.7:25
with
Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 1Cor.11:1

but these don't belong together, because the "intercession" in Heb.7 was as the one and only High Priest,
Shedding his blood = his desire not to destroy sinners. That's his intercession.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe it is, but the problem is when people don't look at the circumstances. They don't look at why the speaker is saying what he's saying and why it appears to disagree with other scripture. They get carried away with an idea and begin mixing it with other scripture which is unrelated.
For instance, in this thread, I was directed to a Catholic webstie where praying to saints was defended by linking,

He always lives to make intercession for them. Heb.7:25
with
Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 1Cor.11:1

but these don't belong together, because the "intercession" in Heb.7 was as the one and only High Priest,
Shedding his blood = his desire not to destroy sinners. That's his intercession.

I don't even understand what 1 Cor 11:1 has to do with this?
I found some writings from earlier fathers, but not all agreed.
So I do depend on them, I must say.

 

[journeyman]

I don't even understand what 1 Cor 11:1 has to do with this?
I found some writings from earlier fathers, but not all agreed.
So I do depend on them, I must say.

To me, it's like how many early Jewish converts still wanted to keep themselves "pure" by performing rituals. There's nothing wrong with this. Paul saw such believers as "weaker" believers. Rom.14 explains this well.
Ritual isn't harmful, unless it begins to replace what it actually symbolizes.
Partaking of the bread and wine is a good example, because partaking of his body and blood is a confession that we are ready to have our body broken and blood spilled for our faith in him. Phil.3:10 says it perfectly.

 

[GodsGrace]

To me, it's like how many early Jewish converts still wanted to keep themselves "pure" by performing rituals. There's nothing wrong with this. Paul saw such believers as "weaker" believers. Rom.14 explains this well.
Ritual isn't harmful, unless it begins to replace what it actually symbolizes.
Partaking of the bread and wine is a good example, because partaking of his body and blood is a confession that we are ready to have our body broken and blood spilled for our faith in him. Phil.3:10 says it perfectly.

Wow.
Will study this more in the morning.
Thanks!