pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

[Eugene]

I read, I attempt to hear, and I see little in a positive light that leads to truth concerning Israel, its future, and God’s unfailing love determined to restore them. Though not visible in its present society, detractors might realize they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. Remember Rom 11:25 . . lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What does God's unfailing love have to do with it? If God makes a conditional covenant with a people and they do not meet the contingencies and God repents of the good He promised, how has His love failed?

And what about the Jews of the last two thousand years who will not receive anything from God? Is it okay for God to fail all the generations up to the last generation?

The problem you will experience in rationalizing God's love is in attempting to compare man to God. Though God knew us from the beginning He sent His Son Jesus to die for us irregardless there were none that doeth good; no, not one. I just do not understand that, but will forever praise Him for doing so. Second, you do not believe certain scripture even though stated because some so-called science says something isn't so. God know them that are His, and He also knows where all Israel, even to the numbering of each hair on their heads, are at this very minute, and Revelation 7:4-8 describe but a portion of Israel redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Rev 14:4.

 

[Eugene]

First, after Jerusalem was destroyed in ad70 all geneaological records were destroyed. The entire city and temple perished.

Second, it cannot be proven by DNA without DNA samples from the original twelve tribal heads.

Wouldn't it be fun to find that you're actually Jewish and didn't even know it? I hope you're not eating pork. :naughty

 

[thethinker]

I read, I attempt to hear, and I see little in a positive light that leads to truth concerning Israel, its future, and God’s unfailing love determined to restore them. Though not visible in its present society, detractors might realize they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. Remember Rom 11:25 . . lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

What does God's unfailing love have to do with it? If God makes a conditional covenant with a people and they do not meet the contingencies and God repents of the good He promised, how has His love failed?

And what about the Jews of the last two thousand years who will not receive anything from God? Is it okay for God to fail all the generations up to the last generation?

The problem you will experience in rationalizing God's love is in attempting to compare man to God.

I think it was you who admitted that God made Israel wander in the wilderness for forty years because of their disobedience. They did NOT enter the land as promised though there were exceptions (Numbers 14:28-30).

Question: Did God's love "fail" those He punished by allowing their dead bodies to perish in the wilderness without ever entering the land?

.

Second, you do not believe certain scripture even though stated because some so-called science says something isn't so. God know them that are His, and He also knows where all Israel, even to the numbering of each hair on their heads, are at this very minute, and Revelation 7:4-8 describe but a portion of Israel redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Rev 14:4.

Hold on there before you accuse me of not believing certain scriptures. I have REPEATEDLY said that God saved a remnant of the Jews in Paul's time. They were the firstfruits of God. James plainly said so.

vs. 1. James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad....

vs. 18. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

This means that your futuristic view of the Revelation is fallacious. The twelve tribes who were saved in James day, and those who were sealed from the twelve tribes in the Revelation must be one and the same group.

Two different groups separated by thousands of years CANNOT both be the "firstfruits."

Therefore, I believe the scriptures!

 

[thethinker]

First, after Jerusalem was destroyed in ad70 all geneaological records were destroyed. The entire city and temple perished.

Second, it cannot be proven by DNA without DNA samples from the original twelve tribal heads.

Wouldn't it be fun to find that you're actually Jewish and didn't even know it? I hope you're not eating pork. :naughty

I don't mean to sound snobbish. Really I don't. But I take these things seriously. Even if the Jewish race should exist today the kingdom was long ago taken away from them and transferred to another nation "bearing the fruits of it." The deal is done! Furthermore, Jesus indicated that the kingdom was NOT theirs to begin with. Read His parable of the landowner (Matthew 21:33-43), and you will find that the Son was the heir and Israel was just the steward of the kingdom.

God = landowner
Son = heir
Israel = steward

The heir (the Son) took the kingdom way from the steward (Israel), and gave it to a nation "bearing the fruits of it" (the Church).

So it really doesn't matter if Biblical Israel exists today or not. The Heir took the kingdom away from them and transferred it to another nation "bearing the fruits of it." The deal is done!

 

[jasoncran]

uhm yeah it can. there the entire jewish nation didn't die out. its well known. the jews that didn't fight were left in isreal and in nazereth, other wise how could the same jews who then fought in bar koba revolt a century later be around? and some of them had kids and they lived. these were and still are in isreal , they are the comparison group as history and archeology has shown them to be fact.

Nazareth wasn't destroyed nor the other cities ONLY Jerusalem burned. that is it.

The Bar Kokhba revolt marked a time of high hopes followed by violent despair. The Jews were handed expectations of a homeland and a Holy Temple, but in the end were persecuted and sold into slavery. During the revolt itself, the Jews gained enormous amounts of land, only to be pushed back and crushed in the final battle of Bethar.
When Hadrian first became the Roman emperor in 118 C.E., he was sympathetic to the Jews. He allowed them to return to Jerusalem and granted permission for the rebuilding of their Holy Temple. The Jews’ expectations rose as they made organizational and financial preparations to rebuild the temple. Hadrian quickly went back on his word, however, and requested that the site of the Temple be moved from its original location. He also began deporting Jews to North Africa.
The Jews prepared to rebel until Rabbi Joshua ben Hananiah calmed them. The Jews then satisfied themselves with preparing secretly in case a rebellion would later become necessary. They built hideouts in caves and did shoddy work building weapons so that the Romans would reject the weapons and return them to the Jews.
The Jews organized guerilla forces and, in 123 C.E., began launching surprise attacks against the Romans. From that point on, life only got worse for the Jews. Hadrian brought an extra army legion, the “Sixth Ferrata,” into Judea to deal with the terrorism. Hadrian hated “foreign” religions and forbade the Jews to perform circumcisions. He appointed Tinneius Rufus governor of Judea. Rufus was a harsh ruler who took advantage of Jewish women. In approximately 132 C.E., Hadrian began to establish a city in Jerusalem called Aelia Capitolina, the name being a combination of his own name and that of the Roman god Jupiter Capitolinus. He started to build a temple to Jupiter in place of the Jewish Holy Temple.
As long as Hadrian remained near Judea, the Jews stayed relatively quiet. When he left in 132, the Jews began their rebellion on a large scale. They seized towns and fortified them with walls and subterranean passages. Under the strong leadership of Shimon Bar-Kokhba, the Jews captured approximately 50 strongholds in Judea and 985 undefended towns and villages, including Jerusalem. Jews from other countries, and even some gentiles, volunteered to join their crusade. The Jews minted coins with slogans such as “The freedom of Israel” written in Hebrew. Hadrian dispatched General Publus Marcellus, governor of Syria, to help Rufus, but the Jews defeated both Roman leaders. The Jews then invaded the coastal region and the Romans began sea battles against them.
The turning point of the war came when Hadrian sent into Judea one of his best generals from Britain, Julius Severus, along with former governor of Germania, Hadrianus Quintus Lollius Urbicus. By that time, there were 12 army legions from Egypt, Britain, Syria and other areas in Judea. Due to the large number of Jewish rebels, instead of waging open war, Severus besieged Jewish fortresses and held back food until the Jews grew weak. Only then did his attack escalate into outright war. The Romans demolished all 50 Jewish fortresses and 985 villages. The main conflicts took place in Judea, the Shephela, the mountains and the Judean desert, though fighting also spread to Northern Israel. The Romans suffered heavy casualties as well and Hadrian did not send his usual message to the Senate that “I and my army are well.”
The final battle of the war took place in Bethar, Bar-Kokhba’s headquarters, which housed both the Sanhedrin (Jewish High Court) and the home of the Nasi (leader). Bethar was a vital military stronghold because of its strategic location on a mountain ridge overlooking both the Valley of Sorek and the important Jerusalem-Bet Guvrin Road. Thousands of Jewish refugees fled to Bethar during the war. In 135 C.E., Hadrian’s army besieged Bethar and on the 9th of Av, the Jewish fast day commemorating the destruction of the first and second Holy Temples, the walls of Bethar fell. After a fierce battle, every Jew in Bethar was killed. Six days passed before the Romans allowed the Jews to bury their dead.
Following the battle of Bethar, there were a few small skirmishes in the Judean Desert Caves, but the war was essentially over and Judean independence was lost. The Romans plowed Jerusalem with a yoke of oxen. Jews were sold into slavery and many were transported to Egypt. Judean settlements were not rebuilt. Jerusalem was turned into a pagan city called Aelia Capitolina and the Jews were forbidden to live there. They were permitted to enter only on the 9th of Av to mourn their losses in the revolt. Hadrian changed the country’s name from Judea to Syria Palestina.
In the years following the revolt, Hadrian discriminated against all Judeo-Christian sects, but the worst persecution was directed against religious Jews. He made anti-religious decrees forbidding Torah study, Sabbath observance, circumcision, Jewish courts, meeting in synagogues and other ritual practices. Many Jews assimilated and many sages and prominent men were martyred including Rabbi Akiva and the rest of the Asara Harugei Malchut (ten martyrs). This age of persecution lasted throughout the remainder of Hadrian’s reign, until 138 C.E.

they must be fake jews, or ones that were just liars.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/revolt1.html

60 years later the jews did that. imagine that.

 

[reba]

desolate of What? IMO desolate of the glory and power of God...
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds

The Jewish religion denies Jesus is the Christ .... Jewish individuals/groups who see Christ as savior are as saved as any one else...

Just my thoughts

 

[reba]

[MENTION=96790]thethinker[/MENTION],

We here at CFnet are very open in our acceptance of different view points... We do not allow for racism/anti-Semitism of the natural people.... I am having trouble finding the correct words... I doubt every person with Hebrew blood has died off...A person can have Hebrew/Jewish blood or genes etc.... They still need Salvation of His Blood...

If I am not clear, let just say if you take your posts to Jewish racism they will not be welcome.... moderator

 

[thethinker]

Yes. Romans 11:25 which was posted seems to indicate that real Jews are still around. Thank you Eugene. (trying to catch up with you more learned types, lol.)

How many times must I repeat myself? The Jews of 11:25 were the remnant of Paul's day (vs. 6). After the fulness of the Gentiles of Paul's day came in "all Israel" (the remnant) was saved too. God kept His promise to the remnant. It had ALWAYS been about the remnant of THAT generation. Then God was free to obliterate their race which He did.

Romans 9:-11 is about Paul's day and not our day. He CLEARLY said that he was speaking about Jews in "this PRESENT time" (not our present time).

You say that their desolation is not forever. That's like saying the the extinction of the dinosaurs is not forever. Come on!

And even if they are still around, which they are NOT, the Heir (Jesus) took the stewardship of the kingdom away from them and gave it to the Church. This transaction is a DONE DEAL. Christ's parables about the wicked steward are about Israel.

It seems that you guys are not at all interested in context.

 

[thethinker]

they must be fake Jews, or ones that were just liars

Jews in Biblical times traced their lineage patriarchally. Modern "Jews" trace their lineage through the mother. So what happened? Halakha, Jewish law, defines a Jew as someone who is either the child of a Jewish mother, or a person who converts to Judaism in accord with Jewish law.

So you see that modern Jews are not Biblical Jews.

 

[thethinker]

@thethinker ,

We here at CFnet are very open in our acceptance of different view points... We do not allow for racism/anti-Semitism of the natural people.... I am having trouble finding the correct words... I doubt every person with Hebrew blood has died off...A person can have Hebrew/Jewish blood or genes etc.... They still need Salvation of His Blood...

If I am not clear, let just say if you take your posts to Jewish racism they will not be welcome.... moderator

Where have I denied that modern Jews are candidates for salvation? I have not. I have said that they are not Biblical Jews. Their house (family) was made desolate.

Post #258 I said: "There are no ethnic Jews today. But the grace of the Lord extends to any man that calls upon His name."

 

[reba]

I did not say you did.... I am speaking to the sounds of racism I hope I don't hear... that is why I used the word 'natural' . Remember it takes us all a while to understand how this member uses this word... etc.. we do not know what is in the other guy's head/heart..... At this time please consider the spirit of what I asked...

I believe The Words of Jesus when He said I leave you desolate.

Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
I also see the hope the hope to those He left desolate "when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[TonkaTim]

I also see the hope the hope to those He left desolate "when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Reba
Do we see the same thing? When one accepts Christ as the Messiah?

 

[jasoncran]

they must be fake Jews, or ones that were just liars

Jews in Biblical times traced their lineage patriarchally. Modern "Jews" trace their lineage through the mother. So what happened? Halakha, Jewish law, defines a Jew as someone who is either the child of a Jewish mother, or a person who converts to Judaism in accord with Jewish law.

So you see that modern Jews are not Biblical Jews.

if the genes are still there as the jews have graves and they were exhumed and guess what the jews today are really close the jews then, so how is Is that possible, actually you made a mistake

jesus mother was a jew, his dad wasn't(joseph) didn't father jesus. jesus was put into Mary's womb. therefor by that logic jesus wasn't a jew.

I never claimed the modern jews weren't following the jewish things totally, I said GENETICALLY they are who they say they are. can you show me without going into any hate site?. feel free to persuse the internet to show me that any holocaust believing historian says the modern jews (ashkenizum) are gentiles.no one would say that. I know I have seen the story of how they came to be in a kids world's religion, book and have verified that with the jewish virtual library which uses outside sources to back claims up. you posted something to the contrary so post that link and its source.

well the problem with that is you are going to the khazari jewish conspiracy. I know this too well. the real jews are gone and if any jew survived they are gentiles or so genetically different that cant be the seed of Abraham. but what I as jew-gentile mix now, my grandma did hate my mom for being a gentile and later changed when I was born. it was rare for a jew to marry non jew. it still is looked down upon.



are all jews ashekanazi? yes or no?

 

[thethinker]

I did not say you did.... I am speaking to the sounds of racism I hope I don't hear... that is why I used the word 'natural' . Remember it takes us all a while to understand how this member uses this word... etc.. we do not know what is in the other guy's head/heart..... At this time please consider the spirit of what I asked...

I believe The Words of Jesus when He said I leave you desolate.

What I am saying is that we are all ONE BLOOD now. We all stand on the same ground with God. There is NO special people according to the flesh. God is NOT a respecter of persons.

God judged the Jewish nation for rejecting her Messiah by making her house "desolate."

I also see hope to those He left desolate.

34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! 35 See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly,I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

The verbs in verse 35 should NOT have been rendered in the indicative. The verbs are subjunctive which means that the promise was CONDITIONAL. They would see Christ again IF they called upon the name of the Lord.

Young's Literal Translation:

`Lo, your house is being left to you desolate, and verily I say to you -- ye may not see me, till it may come, when ye may say, Blessed [is] he who is coming in the name of the Lord.'

It is unfortunate that translators took liberties with the verbs. It gives people the false impression that Jesus was stating an unconditional promise. He was not. He said that they may not see Him again till the day may come that they may confess Him. He did NOT say that the day would indeed come when they would in fact confess Him. We know that they did not confess Him. Therefore, He left their house desolate forever.

The only indicative verb is, "Your house is being left unto you desolate." God sent the Romans to utterly destroy their city and to take them captive. Those that escaped were scattered among the nations of the earth and intermarried and mixed blood. They lost their distinctive ethnic identity. Their geneaological records were also destroyed. No person can trace his lineage back to one of the twelve tribal heads.

All mankind is ONE BLOOD now. A modern "Jew" is one who has adopted the Jewish religion.

 

[reba]

The verbs in verse 35 should NOT have been rendered in the
indicative. The verbs are subjunctive which means that the promise was
CONDITIONAL. They would see Christ again IF they called upon the name of
the Lord

I had to stop reading here and laugh out loud... English is my only language and I am not good at it at all..... I do get the IF part and that is still hope...
I don't expect Israel as a nation will turn to the Lord ... As individuals The blood in one veins matters not . God looks on our hearts. not our DNA

 

[jasoncran]

not all jews practice their faith. I didn't. many jews don't. the founders of isreal weren't all practicing jews but athiests.

 

[Eugene]

not all jews practice their faith. I didn't. many jews don't.

Sounds familiar. Not all Christians practice their faith either. I just heard a Christian here a day or so ago insinuate they still sin once in a while, but I reckon it was accidental sin, and they really didn't mean it. Hey, please let me in them pearly gates; I really didn't mean to murder all those people on purpose; they just got me mad Lord.

Would God answer; aw come on, I can't let you in here; don't you know whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin? Who is better here; the Jew or the so called Christian that has a profession but not a possession of eternal life? Is the following scripture correct? 1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Oh my!

 

[jasoncran]

[MENTION=90512]Eugene[/MENTION], I was addressing the thinker position on what a jew is. besides most American jews when they teach the torah and its outside of chadissicism(if that is a word) its really new agey and "well we are one way to God."nothing like the old way.

 

[Deborah13]

Romans 10:19
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

The salvation of the Gentiles was not a ( )'s in time.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

I don't see how we can provoke them to jealousy if we are not here.
If one thinks that our being "raptured" will make them jealous? Well obviously not, they don't turn according to Revelation "great tribulation".
Will a 1000 yrs. of blood sacrifices for atonement make them believe that they need a Savior??

I just don't get it, sorry.

 

[Eugene]

[MENTION=90512]Eugene[/MENTION], I was addressing the thinker position on what a jew is. besides most American jews when they teach the torah and its outside of chadissicism(if that is a word) its really new agey and "well we are one way to God."nothing like the old way.

I got you, but that doesn't let that Christian that pretends they're following the law off the hook that even commits one sin does it? 1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Oh my! They sure remind me of the Pharisee in Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.