pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

[Randy]

ah yes the old well john didn't see a supernatural. so angels of god let loose a 2000000 army that turns on isreal and then he rescues them. uhm those are demons in nature we have had this conversation. you do take that most of revalation is a vision and that it stated literally.

tanks have wheels and when they fire there is no flame ever visible.

a horse is horse or it isn't.

.And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

nothing that mentions any army of humans but as usual you ignore that fact of logistics where if we have 200000000(2 billion) that is well slightly less a third of the earth population in tanks, never mind the food to feed them, nevermind the support teams to work on them, never mind that is only the tanks not the crew of four. so quadruple that number and we have a number of 8 billion in tanks without the infantry or the means of support and other things any army has. currently the earth's population is 9 billion. do you really think that you could fit that into the small valley of har meggido, which is really small. its valley overlooked by a hill. isreal at the widest is 25 miles. so it cant be more then a mile wide.

I don't claim to know how it will end but I REFUSE to take things out of context and make a doctrine on that and be dogmatic.

signed former army calvarmen, jasoncran. my job was to know tanks and things of this nature.

what about that star in verse one? is that a literal star to you?

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

that is why I don't listen to many end times preachings.

Actually its 200 million troops. Which suggests a group of nations giving allegiance to the beast. The world population in 2100 is predicted to be 10 to 12 billion people. I don't know the date of the Lords return but such things are noticed by many. How about babylon (land of shinar)? Could it be oil that the nations sell their souls to obtain in future years?

 

[Randy]

I prefer pre wrath or pre judgement but I am neither a pre-trib, post trib or mid trib. I believe that we have had Christians die for the faith since the time of Christ. therefore we have been in the general trib for thousands of years.

There will be a great tribulation that comes upon the whole world. After the two witnesses have completed their testimony. 1260 days as I read. Ref: Rev 11 Those who still don't believe and repent of their sins will be deceived into following the beast. The bowl judgments are the last of Gods wrath and those judgments plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. The angel of the abyss is released at the 5th trump. At the very end the Lord returns suddenly Rev 16:15 (2nd coming and 1st resurrection)

R.

Hey Randy how are you? The first resurrection has already started:

Matthew 27:50-54

1.started with those who resurrected in flesh AFTER He resurrected in flesh:


50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.


fulfilling Job saying he would raise in his flesh, the OT saints did and since Jesus has risen to heaven so do we also continue to rise to Him. (the rapture is daily for saved Christians who die)
Jesus descend into hell and was raised by God from the dead and our Lord is able to continue to raise us to Him presently in heaven. we can't precede them because they're already there and will return with him (zech14,I thess 4:13-14,Jude 1:14-15,rev 19. the church is already in heaven in part in the form of saved saints who died and go there.

now the saved dead die and go to heaven (hope) we rise in spiritual bodies (we meet them in the aer daily till the 2nd advent gathering to Christ) in our own order:
1 Corinthians 15:40-45


40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


1 Corinthians 15:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


A.Christ the First B.Every man his own order C. we alive and remaining at His parousia (matt 24:24-31)

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

While I do read of those witnesses you spoke of I see that like Lazarus come forth. The 1st resurrection as I read is at the 2nd coming and with new bodies made in the order of spirit not the dust of the earth. I am pre mil. I just don't hold to a pretrib rapture. Only a gathering at the 2nd coming of the Lord.

Randy

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Matthew 27:50-54


50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.


we will return with him (zech14,I thess 4:13-14,Jude 1:14-15,rev 19. the church is already in heaven in part in the form of saved saints who died and go there.


1 Corinthians 15:40-45


40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


1 Corinthians 15:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


A.Christ the First B.Every man his own order C. we alive and remaining at His parousia (matt 24:24-31)

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.



[/QUOTE]

While I do read of those witnesses you spoke of I see that like Lazarus come forth. The 1st resurrection as I read is at the 2nd coming and with new bodies made in the order of spirit not the dust of the earth. I am pre mil. I just don't hold to a pretrib rapture. Only a gathering at the 2nd coming of the Lord.

Randy[/QUOTE]

I also don't believe in a pre trib rapture (except for as we Christians die)

I agree Christ Jesus does NOT return before the trib which is a created event to cover the coming of false Christs. A coming of Jesus early had to be created along with a false need for a Christian to come out of the grave if one is going to try to twist I thess 4:13-18 into a "pre trib" coming which is a false doctrine.

As Christians we believe Jesus died in the flesh, was buried and rose again on the 3rd day and matt 27 says the graves opened and those inside came out WITH Him. That was to prove that Jesus Christ has defeated death already.

He ascended , why can't we? who holds us to a grave since Jesus Christ defeated the grave?

Why would a Christian still have to be in the grave since as a member of Jesus Christ's body we rise TO Him as Stephan did? the same God that brought Jesus up from the grave and Jesus to His right hand side is the same God that brings us to Jesus Christ in heaven spiritually when we die.

which Last Day is scripture talking of :
raise on the last Day= the 3rd Day for those who died saved prior to His resurrection and participated with Him in resurrection.

Job said He will raise in flesh and see the lord, paul says we raise in spiritual bodies so which is it? both, the OT saints are raised with Him and we continue to rise spiritually.

raised on the last Day=we who meet them in spiritual bodies because the heavens and earth will be on fire.

(martyrs,saints in heaven not the grave waiting for Christ, He's already risen so do we IF we believe He did we return with Him according to I thess 4:13-14)

:yes

 

[Eugene]

tanks have wheels and when they fire there is no flame ever visible.

signed former army calvarmen, jasoncran. my job was to know tanks and things of this nature.

Flame throwing tank example in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W94XcbKjYU

The third part on men killed.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

Seven years to destroy all weapons of war.
Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Seven months to find all the dead.
Eze 39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

Food - http://snapshotsofmercy.wordpress.com/tag/jezreel-valley/
Posts about Jezreel Valley written by snapshotsofmercy. ... We went down into Megiddo's water shaft, 120 feet deep, connecting the city with a ... is the most fertile valley in Israel, yielding the highest volume of food per square foot in the world.

Size of Miggido. - http://www.scriptureseries.blogspot.com/
The Valley of Megiddo covers 375 sq. miles. . . In that case, each soldier will have about 68 sq. feet of space.

As with any battle will 200,000,000 march as a single unit meeting in Miggido at the same time?

As to you question of the star falling to earth in Revelation 9:1, it is explained that it is a "him,” and is this case Satan. Revelation 12:9 casts more light on this star. “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

ah yes the old well john didn't see a supernatural. so angels of god let loose a 2000000 army that turns on isreal and then he rescues them. uhm those are demons in nature we have had this conversation. you do take that most of revalation is a vision and that it stated literally.

tanks have wheels and when they fire there is no flame ever visible.

a horse is horse or it isn't.

.And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

nothing that mentions any army of humans but as usual you ignore that fact of logistics where if we have 200000000(2 billion) that is well slightly less a third of the earth population in tanks, never mind the food to feed them, nevermind the support teams to work on them, never mind that is only the tanks not the crew of four. so quadruple that number and we have a number of 8 billion in tanks without the infantry or the means of support and other things any army has. currently the earth's population is 9 billion. do you really think that you could fit that into the small valley of har meggido, which is really small. its valley overlooked by a hill. isreal at the widest is 25 miles. so it cant be more then a mile wide.

I don't claim to know how it will end but I REFUSE to take things out of context and make a doctrine on that and be dogmatic.

signed former army calvarmen, jasoncran. my job was to know tanks and things of this nature.

what about that star in verse one? is that a literal star to you?

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

that is why I don't listen to many end times preachings.

Actually its 200 million troops. Which suggests a group of nations giving allegiance to the beast. The world population in 2100 is predicted to be 10 to 12 billion people. I don't know the date of the Lords return but such things are noticed by many. How about babylon (land of shinar)? Could it be oil that the nations sell their souls to obtain in future years?

:amen paul says the falling away must happen first and now we know what withholdeth=great apostasy / when the transgressors come to a full Dan 8:23/ coming of antiChrist dan 11
Jesus Christ says as the Days of Noe=gen 6/jude /joel 2/rev the locust armies released from the pit by satan. when the star falls he's given the keys of the bottomless pit rev 9
Jesus says the Days have been shortend for the elects sake/satan wrathful for he has but a short time
Jesus says when we see the armies surrounding Judah (if there flee) know the end is very soon (take nothing with you)
Jesus Christ returns after the trib at a time many didn't expect and cuts them down as the armies gathered to satan on the mount claiming to be God (and Israel is building like mad today, preparing)


when satan comes he'll shew himself and claim to be God (II thess 2/dan 11) and his false Christs claim to be Jesus (mt24,mk13,lk21) to purge away all the tares first (matt 13:27-30,36-43,) from the wheat

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

View attachment 3409

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

[FONT=Arial,helvetica] [SIZE=+2]THE EARLY CHURCH[/SIZE]
Those whom the apostles personally instructed, and those taught in turn by them, were most likely to know and adhere to the original teachings.
Justin Martyr (100 to 167 A.D.) lived near the time of the apostle John (died 100 A.D.); Justin taught the resurrection and rapture of believers would occur at the beginning of the millennium (Christ's 1000-year reign, which starts just after the Second Coming). Justin also wrote, "the man of apostasy [Antichrist] ...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us the Christians" (Trypho cx).
Irenaeus (130 to 200 A.D.) who said he held the actual apostles' teaching, wrote, "they [the ten kings of Rev. 17:1-13] shall ...give their kingdom to the beast [Antichrist], and put the Church to flight" (Against Heresies V, 26, 1). Irenaeus also said : "but he [John] indicates the number of the name [666 of Antichrist] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is" ( Against Heresies V, 30, 4).
Tertullian (150 to 220 A.D.) attached the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4, to the start of Christ's millennial kingdom on earth. Tertullian said the tribulation situation will be such "that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God" (On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv).
Cyprian (200 to 260 A.D.) writes, "Nor let any of you, beloved brethren, be terrified by the fear of future persecution, by the coming of the threatening Antichrist" (Epistle 55,7). And we do well to take Cyprian's advice, since the Lord's grace is sufficient for true believers to be victorious in any situation.
Pseudo-Ephraem (perhaps 400 or 600 A.D.) was a man who "borrowed" materials from the real Ephraem of Syria, ---and some pre-tribulationists have taken several sentences out of context, in an attempt to say that there was an early date for the pre-tribulation rapture teaching. The main two sentences of Pseudo-Ephraem which are quoted, state : "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare oursleves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion which overwhelms all the world? ... For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they ever see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." ---Note, that these quoted sentences do not mention a coming of the Lord, or a resurrection of the dead or a glorification (translation) or a heavenly destination of believers.
However, in a very solid and thorough analysis of the writings of both pseudo and real Ephraem, Dr. Robert Gundry (in his book, "First the Antichrist", '97, Baker, p.161-188) concludes that in reality, "Pseudo-Ephraem urges Christians to forsake worldliness in preparation for meeting Christ when he returns after the great tribulation. Meanwhile, Christian evangelism is taking people to the Lord and gathering them into the Church. ... This interpretation takes account of Pseudo-Ephraem's leaving the corpses of Christians unburied during the tribulation, putting the resurrection of Christians and their meeting Christ at his coming after the tribulation to destroy the Antichrist, making imminent the advent of Antichrist rather than that of Christ, and utilizing the plainly and heavily post-trib tradition of true Ephraem, who repeatedly portrayed present-day evangelism as a gathering" (my emphases).
Not only did the early Church teach that the Church would face Antichrist, and that Christ would return at the beginning of the Millennium, but in all of Church history, there is never a pre-tribulation rapture teaching, until Edward Irving writes of it in the 1830s A.D. -----So, the pre-trib rapture teaching is only 170 years old (and the mid-trib teaching is even more recent).
Outstanding Bible Teachers in subsequent generations of Church history, who taught that the Church would encounter the persecution of the Antichrist here on earth before the Second Coming, include : John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Henry Alford, J.Sidlow Baxter, F.F. Bruce, Thomas Chalmers, Adam Clarke, Jonathan Edwards, Jim Elliott, W.J. Erdman, Robert Gundry, Carl F. Henry, Matthew Henry, John Huss, Orson Jones, C.S. Lovett, J.Gresham Machen, Peter Marshall, Walter Martin, Gary Matsdorf, G.Campbell Morgan, Leon Morris, George Mueller, Ian Murray, B.W. Newton, John Newton, H.J. Ockenga, Bernard Ramm, Alexander Reese, A. Saphir, Demos Shakarian, A.B. Simpson, Oswald J. Smith, Jim Spillman, R.C. Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie TenBoom, S.P. Tragelles, William Tyndale, B.B. Warfield, Charles Wesley, R.F. Youngblood, -----and premillennial posttribulationists also include : Bengel, Brooks, Cameron, Delitzsch, Derstine, DeWette, Ellicott, Ewald, Frost, Godet, Godwin, Joyner, Kellogg, Moorehead, Orelli, Robertson, Rothe, Ryle, Spener, Stier, Trench, Volck, Van Ostersee, West, Whiston, Zahn, and many more. -----In looking at the whole history of the Christian Church, the overwhelming majority of great Bible-teachers have believed that the Church would encounter Antichrist, and that the rapture and the Second Coming would happen at the same time ...after the tribulation.
-----But still, any teaching should stand or fall, not because of its antiquity, or a majority believing it, but as it lines up with the truth of the Scriptures.



by R. Totten, MDiv - © 1997



I differ with rev. Trotten in I don't believe Christians have to wait in a grave to raise to Christ Jesus as matt 27 /Icor 15:44 proves. I believe the rapture is actually the resurrection of saved dead, we the saved who die, rise daily to Jesus Christ in spiritual bodies. (in the Aer)



I also believe according to the timing of events per Jesus Christ whats called a pre trib rapture is the coming of false Christs pretending to be Jesus matt 24:4-5,15,21-31 and working of satan paul warns also comes prior to the post trib gathering/rapture to Jesus returning

(to earth).


anyway I think His work is excellent for study

[/FONT]

 

[Randy]

The Lord taught He would send out His angels and gather His own at the 2nd coming from the ends of the heavens. Like two will be taken and 3 will be left. Paul wrote at that coming of the Lord the dead in Christ rise first then those left alive on earth at time will be caught up to be with the Lord forever. This coming of the Lord is the first resurrection. Abraham, Isaac, Daniel and countless others only God knows will be at that event. The 2nd death has no hold on those who God has found worthy to participate at that event. Since the mystery was revealed from above that through Jesus the gentiles are also grafted into that one tree (Jesus is the true vine) those that listen to the Father and learn from Him go to the Son and they also will be raised up on that last day. God only has one family made up of (Jews, Gentiles, Male, Female) all are one in Jesus. As you can read I am not a dispensationalist.


Two thousand years ago a fine line could be drawn between Israel and the rest of the world (gentiles) That line can no longer be drawn. God made a new covenant and many Hebrews accepted that invitation and many more gentiles to this day have come to Jesus through/by faith.

Paul could ask and answer these questions "Yes" Ref :Who were the Jews 2 Cor11:22 Can anyone today say "so am I". In Christ our hearts are circumcised by Gods Holy Spirit and it is that circumcision that marks one as in a covenant relationship with God. That is how God writes this new covenant on our hearts. Peter quoted Joel to his fellow Jews (remember one family not two) in these last days God would pour out His Spirit.... God also foretold that He would make a new covenant with Israel. Jesus introduced that covenant to the lost sheep of Israel first then that same message was sent to the whole world. Remember one family not two.

Randy

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

All you guys think the same. You put so many words into others mouths.


*like lying pre tribbers who add "pre trib" to pauls epistles, please!



You think you know how I think? What I believe? What makes you guys so sure that we'll run out the door and worship the first guy that come by? That's the height of arrogance. You're not discussing scripture, you're projecting your beliefs onto others. That is so wrong!


*Jesus Christ says His coming is AFTER the false Christs' tribulation matt 24:29-31 NOT pre trib, paul says the Lord's coming is AFTER the working of satan II thess 2 NOT before, so it's obvious only unbelievers would not believe Christ Jesus



It seems like you guys who don't believe in a rapture

*no I believe in the post trib rapture Jesus Christ teaches, I DON'T believe in a pre trib rapture because it's NOT SCRIPTURAL is so post the verse that says Jesus Christ is coming pre trib please.



are more obsessed with being condescending and making the point over and over that everyone else except you is wrong, all the while perhaps neglecting your own spirituality?


*of course you have to direct attention to us as you have no scriptures that documents a pre trib rapture while we have the very words of jesus Christ who tellsl us His coming is AFTER the tribulation of false Christs matt 24:21-31


Back up your assertions with scripture.


*Matthew 24:29-31
King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately ---------->after the tribulation <-------of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.





Why am I going to be seduced by an anti christ?


*Because Jesus Christ says false Christs come before Him claiming to be Him , HIS coming is after the false Christs tribulation. It's like Jesus says I'll be here at 5 but beware an imposter is coming at 4 and pre tribbers choose to go with 4pm instead of waiting till 5.


I know who my God is, and what he's going to do and not do when He comes.

*if one doesn't know when Jesus Christ comes maybe
1.they haven't read matt 24:21-31,mark 13:19-28,luke 21:8,19-29,II thess 2
2. they have read it and listened to satan give them some explanation to keep them fooled
3. they just don't believe Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ says the tares are gathered first not the church matt 13:30
Jesus Christ said NAY to early harvest least the wheat be uprooted with the tares mt 13
Jesus Christ says His coming is AFTER the tribulation of false Christs claiming to be Him mt 24:21-31,mk13,lk21
paul says the Lords coming and our gathering is AFTER the falling away FIRST and working of satan II thess 2




Anyone claiming to be be Him can't just heal a few people or call down some lightning from heaven and convince me!


*then you believe Jesus Christ when H3e says His coming is after the tribulation and refuse those who try to lie and tell you His coming is pre trib?



That's not what happens when my God comes.

* Jesus says in matt 24:4-5,mark 13:5-6,Luke 21:8 many shall come in His name claiming they are Christs (with signs and lying wonders to seduce) and MANY SHALL BE deceived
we believers know the first ones to show up are false Christs for tares, so how is it someone can claim Jesus coming is before HE said it was...based on WHAT VERSE?



So tell me...how and why and I going to fall down and worship some weirdo when I know what to look for?


*so you know the false Christs are coming claiming to be Jesus before Jesus Christ returns and THE post trib rapture? they lead to satan on the mount , if one becomes a whore of Babylon by being fooled into thinking the coming of false Christs is Jesus come to rapture them away and follow after them when Jesus warned not to, and worship satan on the mount claiming to be God then they have defiled the temple and will be blotted out of the book of life to suffer the Wrath of God


those who fall for the pre trib rapture lies of satan will be crying Lord Lord didn't we cast out demons and lay hands on the sick.....and HE says Depart from me ye workers of iniquity!

Jesus says the tares are gathered first , no matter how much satan tries to convince one the church is coing to be raptured first satan and his pre trib lies can NOT change the order of events as Jesus Christ teaches.

pre trib rapture=purging of tares/removing non believers from the wheat

after the trib

Jesus Christ returns (WHEN HE SAID HE WOULD) and we who are alive meet Him and the saved dead returning with Him in the aer=#g109 breath g4151 spirit I cor 15:44 spiritual bodies as the heavens and earth will be on fire II pet 3.


anyway good talking to you

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

The Lord taught He would send out His angels and gather His own at the 2nd coming from the ends of the heavens. Like two will be taken and 3 will be left.

* 1st taken are tares mt 13:30


Paul wrote at that coming of the Lord the dead in Christ rise first then those left alive on earth at time will be caught up to be with the Lord forever.

matt 27 proves the saved dead have already started rising, we rise in spiritual bodies I cor 15:44 as Stephan in acts 7 since Jesus rose. Christians who believe Jesus rose know we also partake in His resurrection, no need for us to stay in the graves the same God who raised Jesus in flesh can raise us to Him in spirit. the saved dead returns WITH Jesus I thess 4:13-14,jude 1:14-15,zech 14, rev 19
we who are alive and remain meet them in the spiritual bodies AER not sky #g3772



This coming of the Lord is the first resurrection.

* HIS resurrection is the first resurrection as matt 27 proves, again no need for a Christian to go into a grave when Jesus says we'll be like the angels in heaven.



Abraham, Isaac, Daniel and countless others only God knows will be at that event.

*matt 27 and the graves opened and they came out after Jesus rose and walked into the streets and appeared unto many



The 2nd death has no hold on those who God has found worthy to participate at that event.

*the saved participate in the 1st resurrection daily as we die in our own order , Christ being the 1st then those at His coming.


Since the mystery was revealed from above that through Jesus the gentiles are also grafted into that one tree (Jesus is the true vine) those that listen to the Father and learn from Him go to the Son and they also will be raised up on that last day. God only has one family made up of (Jews, Gentiles, Male, Female) all are one in Jesus. As you can read I am not a dispensationalist.


*agreed except for those who rise on the last day are alive and remaining


Two thousand years ago a fine line could be drawn between Israel and the rest of the world (gentiles) That line can no longer be drawn. God made a new covenant and many Hebrews accepted that invitation and many more gentiles to this day have come to Jesus through/by faith.


*AMEN

Paul could ask and answer these questions "Yes" Ref :Who were the Jews 2 Cor11:22 Can anyone today say "so am I". In Christ our hearts are circumcised by Gods Holy Spirit and it is that circumcision that marks one as in a covenant relationship with God. That is how God writes this new covenant on our hearts. Peter quoted Joel to his fellow Jews (remember one family not two) in these last days God would pour out His Spirit.... God also foretold that He would make a new covenant with Israel. Jesus introduced that covenant to the lost sheep of Israel first then that same message was sent to the whole world. Remember one family not two.

*AMEN


I agree with randy all except for Christians going into the grave, matt 27 tells me the 1st resurrection has already started as Stephan was taken in spirit so are we now taken in spirit as Jesus Christ ascended into heaven so do we as literal members of His body

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

=Edward;837292]Hehe. I stirred the pot that time. Ok. No offense guys, that what I get for posting so late. Yes, brother, I have scriptures to back me up in all of it.



*really cause I'd like to see the verse that says Jesus Christ is coming
"pre tribulation" as paul NEVER says that. paul quotes matt 24:30-31 the post trib rapture to Jesus returning after the working of satan.

*paul warns believers not to be deceived for the Lord's Day Comment deleted shall not come except the falling away first and the revealing of satan to be worshipped.

*what's called a pre trib rapture is the coming of satan NOT Jesus Christ
no matter what pre tribbers try to claim , Jesus says the tares are gathered first and THEN the wheat.

I have some company right now so wait until a little later and I'll pull out my notes and we'll toss this around some.


*great, lets start with the verse that gives pre tribbers the right to claim Jesus comes pre trib when HE says His coming is after the tribulation in matt 24:29-31


I've done it before and many of the scriptures and posts that I posted were simply ignored, but hey, I'll try again. I sure will.


*like some who ignore the Lord's words in matt 24:29-31

will you try to claim 'come up hither" to john magically applies to the whole church, or will you claim since the church isn't mentioned in revelations then it must have flown away? please! bring it



Let's try to be friendly about though, ok. I apologize up front if you took offense to my post, but, we're all brothers in Christ and all seek the truth, and we should be able to discuss it without the thread degenerating into foolishness ok?

* no where not all brothers and sisters in Christ as Jesus says HE doesn't bring peace but a sword that spits families. either one is a sheep who believes Jesus Christ and His teaching or one doesn't. paul explains why in II thess 2:10-12



Can you agree to this? Basically, I think there is scriptural evidence of two events happening.


* yes the first is the gathering of tares the second is the gathering of wheat.

pre trib rapture is for those who believe men's lies that add pre trib to paul's epistles and claim paul said it, while the 2nd coming and our gathering to Jesus Christ is for believers who read matt 24:21-31 and realize what many are calling pre trib rapture is the coming of false Christs while Jesus says His coming is after the tribulation of false christs. paul says Christ's coming is after the working of satan.

Comment deleted




A rapture, and the 2nd coming where every eye will see him. God bless you brother. let's discuss this.


* same event according to Jesus Christ



sure we can discuss it however your never get me to believe Jesus Christ is coming before HE said HE will. AMEN!

 

[jasoncran]

im going to back away from this thread for some hard core reading up on the historical preterist beliefs of the early church and the modern movement.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Really. It sounds to me like you have somewhat of an attitude and so many presuppositions that you're sitting there already telling me that I am wrong and you're right. If you can't be polite and wait for me to post my scriptures and beliefs before you tear into me then perhaps we should not pursue this at all. To disagree is one thing but if you can't maintain a proper tone in the thread and on the board, then perhaps you'd be happier moving on? Do not take that tone with me or other members. Please.

I'll have this discussion if you can be civil. Otherwise not. Your choice.

Comment Deleted


paul NEVER says Jesus Christ comes pre trib, men lie and add that to paul's words:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Christians die and go TO Christ jesus and return WITH HIM









15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.




AER=g109 breath breath=g4151 spirit I cor 15:44 we rise spiritual bodies



paul NEVER said Jesus Christ is coming "pre trib" , false prophets make out as if paul did to lead them to fall for the coming false Christs:






Matthew 24:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many



Mark 13:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.







Luke 21:8


8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.





Matthew 24:21-28

King James Version (KJV)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.







Matthew 13:28-30

King James Version (KJV)

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.





the post trib rapture Jesus Christ teaches:

Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Eugene]

im going to back away from this thread for some hard core reading up on the historical preterist beliefs of the early church and the modern movement.

Trying to see if they had fire breathing tanks back in 70 AD?

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

im going to back away from this thread for some hard core reading up on the historical preterist beliefs of the early church and the modern movement.

Trying to see if they had fire breathing tanks back in 70 AD?

try to find the verse that says Jesus Christ is coming pre trib also please.thankyou

 

[jasoncran]

View attachment 3411no, what if the apostles taught that most of matthew 24 was past and Justin martyr and also also barnabas and eusabias.

you are the one whom claim that that was a human army then when I brought that months ago that cant be you then changed it to a super natural one and then you say that again.

I have read Justin martyr on the end times. no trib mentioned. I can quote him now.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

he is a chialist and has no mentioning of any trib, that says a lot to me as he was nearly around when the apostles lived. if its sooooooo clear then why didn't the early church teach it?


there are three forms of preterism. they vary on matthew 24,25 and also revalation the oldest says that up to matthew 24 midway has been fulfilled and up to revalation 13.
now then we were discussing revalation 9.

odd if they got it wrong. could they have? yes but its kinda hard to believe that the early church whom was more into the bible's origins and also the culture that gave us that book would that wrong.

I also quote Eusebius

When, then, we see what was of old foretold for the nations fulfilled in our day, and when the lamentation and wailing that was predicted for the Jews, and the burning of the Temple and its utter desolation, can also be seen even now to have occurred according to the prediction, surely we must also agree that the King who was prophesied, the Christ of God, has come, since the signs of His coming have been shewn in each instance I have treated to have been clearly fulfilled."

 

[Eugene]

try to find the verse that says Jesus Christ is coming pre trib also please.thankyou

There is no verse of scripture I've ever seen that that says "Jesus is coming pre trib; come to think of it I've never seen one that says He ain't either. I have read the manner and order of His coming, and I have read of certain ones caught up to heaven.

I'm not sure of what you seek, or who you hope to convince concerning a rapture, but I would ask if you think any in heaven had to be caught up or did they get there on their own? I can go further with this if you like.

 

[jasoncran]

oh I was taught that too about the horseman being a human army.i heard it being taught as recent as last year by a pastor that I listen to daily. funny thing isn't it.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

try to find the verse that says Jesus Christ is coming pre trib also please.thankyou

There is no verse of scripture I've ever seen that that says "Jesus is coming pre trib; come to think of it I've never seen one that says He ain't either. I have read the manner and order of His coming, and I have read of certain ones caught up to heaven.

I'm not sure of what you seek, or who you hope to convince concerning a rapture, but I would ask if you think any in heaven had to be caught up or did they get there on their own? I can go further with this if you like.

sure please try to show me how you conclude Jesus is coming to catch anyone before the trib, if your using caught up in the air paul says AER=breath NOT g3772 sky. paul says we are caught up in spiritual bodies I cor 15:44

again try all you want , you can't change the fact that Jesus Christ says in matt 13:30 the tares are gathered first


I'd rather take heed and wait for Jesus to return when HE says in matt 24:29-31
:yes

 

[Eugene]

Re: pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive
no, what if the apostles taught that most of matthew 24 was past and Justin martyr and also also barnabas and eusabias.

you are the one whom claim that that was a human army then when I brought that months ago that cant be you then changed it to a super natural one and then you say that again.

I have read Justin martyr on the end times. no trib mentioned. I can quote him now.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...guetrypho.html

he is a chialist and has no mentioning of any trib, that says a lot to me as he was nearly around when the apostles lived. if its sooooooo clear then why didn't the early church teach it?

there are three forms of preterism. they vary on matthew 24,25 and also revalation the oldest says that up to matthew 24 midway has been fulfilled and up to revalation 13.
now then we were discussing revalation 9.

odd if they got it wrong. could they have? yes but its kinda hard to believe that the early church whom was more into the bible's origins and also the culture that gave us that book would that wrong.

I also quote Eusebius

When, then, we see what was of old foretold for the nations fulfilled in our day, and when the lamentation and wailing that was predicted for the Jews, and the burning of the Temple and its utter desolation, can also be seen even now to have occurred according to the prediction, surely we must also agree that the King who was prophesied, the Christ of God, has come, since the signs of His coming have been shewn in each instance I have treated to have been clearly fulfilled."

when children step on their parents hearts its a painful reminder of the love of God had for us in jesus. he sent his son for us. to the parent its a lesson in love and the hurt it brings and for the children a lesson in repentance and forgiveness.

Brother Jason, this argument is a very good one for the Preterism Discussions of end times, but here futurist doctrines are debated, and to allow your post would only detract from the OP. Thanks.