pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

[Watchmen for Christ]

[SIZE=+3]The Church and the Post-Tribulation Rapture[/SIZE]- by R. Totten, MDiv - © 1997
[FONT=Arial,helvetica] Events and trends around the world now seem to ever more clearly indicate the nearing end of this present age including the Post-Tribulation Rapture. This present age will end with a period of "Great Tribulation," which includes the terrible global reign of a Satan-possessed man called the Antichrist (1 Jn. 2:18). This period is climaxed and ended by the glorious physical Second Coming of Christ personally from heaven to earth in power and judgment (Mat.24). As Christ returns, dead believers are physically resurrected, and together with believers who have not died, the whole Church is "caught up" ("raptured") to meet the Lord in the sky (described in 1 Thess. 4:13-18). The "Church" is defined as: all truly born-again believers in Christ, worldwide, throughout history, who together make up the "body of Christ."
Concerning the rapture (the catching up of believers to meet Christ in the sky), intelligent and sincere Bible students disagree whether it will occur before (pre-), in the middle (mid-), or after (post-) the tribulation period, but regardless, it is not such a crucial teaching that it is worth disrupting fellowship between Christians over it. The chief task given to the Church, is to evangelize the lost world, who couldn't care less about the placement of the rapture. But it is still important, so that we know what to expect and what to hope for, as we look forward to Christ's return.
Currently, in North America, the pre-tribulational rapture teaching is possibly the most highly publicized and popular position on the timing of the rapture --however, when one considers biblical teaching down through the centuries, the Post-tribulational view is predominant. ---What's more, the following basic facts should be realized:
No passage ANYwhere in the entire Bible explicitly (directly and clearly) puts right before (or at the start of) the tribulation a single one of the constituent parts (events) that make up the rapture, such as :

• a "coming" of Christ,
• a resurrection of the saints (...or church, or believers)
• a translation of the saints (...bodies changed & glorified)
• a gathering of believers (...e.g. by angels) *believers are continuing to Resurrect daily to Jesus in spiritual bodies
• a catching-up (rapture) of the saints
• or, a reception of the raptured saints by the Lord (...esp. in heaven)

As emphasized in the above list, the teaching of a pre-tribulational rapture is built virtually entirely on implication (reading "between the lines"), but not on direct and explicit teaching from the Bible.
---On the other hand, the New Testament does tell us explicitly and directly that :

• Christ will come again after the tribulation *I disagree with the good reverend here in that Matt 27 proves the graves have opened already and the saints walked into the streets
• saints will be raised from the dead after the tribulation * saints raise daily in our own order as Stephan acts7, the saved dead return WITH Jesus I thess 4:13-14,Jude:1-14,zech 14 for :
• and, the elect will be gathered after the tribulation. (...see Mat.24:29-31) [FONT=Arial,helvetica]*we who are alive and remain meet them in aer=spiritual bodies Icor 15:44 breath/spirit[/FONT]

Everybody agrees that the rapture occurs at the Lord's "coming," (1Thes.4:15-17) -----and yet, the New Testament only explicitly states that the Lord will "come" back to earth right after the tribulation, but never that he'll come before it.
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[Watchmen for Christ]

[FONT=Arial,helvetica] The post-tribulational position taken here is not new, in fact, the Church has believed this way for more than 19 centuries: The early Church, the Reformation leaders, and most great theologians have believed the Church would be persecuted by the Antichrist (the evil world dictator during the Great Tribulation), and then the rapture would occur at Christ's glorious Second Coming.
[SIZE=+2]THE EARLY CHURCH[/SIZE]
Those whom the apostles personally instructed, and those taught in turn by them, were most likely to know and adhere to the original teachings.
Justin Martyr (100 to 167 A.D.) lived near the time of the apostle John (died 100 A.D.); Justin taught the resurrection and rapture of believers would occur at the beginning of the millennium (Christ's 1000-year reign, which starts just after the Second Coming). Justin also wrote, "the man of apostasy [Antichrist] ...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us the Christians" (Trypho cx).
Irenaeus (130 to 200 A.D.) who said he held the actual apostles' teaching, wrote, "they [the ten kings of Rev. 17:1-13] shall ...give their kingdom to the beast [Antichrist], and put the Church to flight" (Against Heresies V, 26, 1). Irenaeus also said : "but he [John] indicates the number of the name [666 of Antichrist] now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is" ( Against Heresies V, 30, 4).
Tertullian (150 to 220 A.D.) attached the rapture of 1 Thessalonians 4, to the start of Christ's millennial kingdom on earth. Tertullian said the tribulation situation will be such "that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God" (On the Resurrection of the Flesh xxv).
Cyprian (200 to 260 A.D.) writes, "Nor let any of you, beloved brethren, be terrified by the fear of future persecution, by the coming of the threatening Antichrist" (Epistle 55,7). And we do well to take Cyprian's advice, since the Lord's grace is sufficient for true believers to be victorious in any situation.
Pseudo-Ephraem (perhaps 400 or 600 A.D.) was a man who "borrowed" materials from the real Ephraem of Syria, ---and some pre-tribulationists have taken several sentences out of context, in an attempt to say that there was an early date for the pre-tribulation rapture teaching. The main two sentences of Pseudo-Ephraem which are quoted, state : "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare oursleves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion which overwhelms all the world? ... For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they ever see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." ---Note, that these quoted sentences do not mention a coming of the Lord, or a resurrection of the dead or a glorification (translation) or a heavenly destination of believers.
However, in a very solid and thorough analysis of the writings of both pseudo and real Ephraem, Dr. Robert Gundry (in his book, "First the Antichrist", '97, Baker, p.161-188) concludes that in reality, "Pseudo-Ephraem urges Christians to forsake worldliness in preparation for meeting Christ when he returns after the great tribulation. Meanwhile, Christian evangelism is taking people to the Lord and gathering them into the Church. ... This interpretation takes account of Pseudo-Ephraem's leaving the corpses of Christians unburied during the tribulation, putting the resurrection of Christians and their meeting Christ at his coming after the tribulation to destroy the Antichrist, making imminent the advent of Antichrist rather than that of Christ, and utilizing the plainly and heavily post-trib tradition of true Ephraem, who repeatedly portrayed present-day evangelism as a gathering" (my emphases).
Not only did the early Church teach that the Church would face Antichrist, and that Christ would return at the beginning of the Millennium, but in all of Church history, there is never a pre-tribulation rapture teaching, until Edward Irving writes of it in the 1830s A.D. -----So, the pre-trib rapture teaching is only 170 years old (and the mid-trib teaching is even more recent).
Outstanding Bible Teachers in subsequent generations of Church history, who taught that the Church would encounter the persecution of the Antichrist here on earth before the Second Coming, include : John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Henry Alford, J.Sidlow Baxter, F.F. Bruce, Thomas Chalmers, Adam Clarke, Jonathan Edwards, Jim Elliott, W.J. Erdman, Robert Gundry, Carl F. Henry, Matthew Henry, John Huss, Orson Jones, C.S. Lovett, J.Gresham Machen, Peter Marshall, Walter Martin, Gary Matsdorf, G.Campbell Morgan, Leon Morris, George Mueller, Ian Murray, B.W. Newton, John Newton, H.J. Ockenga, Bernard Ramm, Alexander Reese, A. Saphir, Demos Shakarian, A.B. Simpson, Oswald J. Smith, Jim Spillman, R.C. Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie TenBoom, S.P. Tragelles, William Tyndale, B.B. Warfield, Charles Wesley, R.F. Youngblood, -----and premillennial posttribulationists also include : Bengel, Brooks, Cameron, Delitzsch, Derstine, DeWette, Ellicott, Ewald, Frost, Godet, Godwin, Joyner, Kellogg, Moorehead, Orelli, Robertson, Rothe, Ryle, Spener, Stier, Trench, Volck, Van Ostersee, West, Whiston, Zahn, and many more. -----In looking at the whole history of the Christian Church, the overwhelming majority of great Bible-teachers have believed that the Church would encounter Antichrist, and that the rapture and the Second Coming would happen at the same time ...after the tribulation.
-----But still, any teaching should stand or fall, not because of its antiquity, or a majority believing it, but as it lines up with the truth of the Scriptures.
[SIZE=+2]CHRIST'S ARRIVAL: THE "PAROUSÃA"[/SIZE]
The New Testament Greek word "Parousía" (pronounced pah-roo-SEÉ-ah), when used concerning Christ, is a specialized or "technical term," since it speaks "nearly always of his Messianic advent in glory to judge the world at the end of the age" (Greek-English Lexicon by Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich, p.635); in fact, 16 of the 17 usages are like this. This word was used in NT times to indicate the coming of a ruler or official who was just arriving at a city to be with the people there. In English translations of the Bible, Christ's Parousia is usually translated as his "coming," but it must include the idea of his "arrival" to earth in order to be physically "present" with people on earth. ----Considering the verses which speak of Christ's Parousia, is highly informative on his Second Coming and the rapture.
In 1 Cor. 15:23, Paul brings out that the resurrection of believers in Christ will happen "at his Parousia" ("when he comes"). Then in 1 Thes. 4, where Paul describes the Parousia ("coming") of the Lord (v.15), we read that this is the time of the saint's resurrection and rapture (v.16,17). The resurrection and rapture of the saints (born again believers) is connected to and is part of the Parousia.
Adding to this concept, historically, : "When a dignitary paid an official visit or parousia to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens in going out to meet him and escorting him on the final stage of his journey was called the apentesis..." (F.F.Bruce, in New Bible Commentary, ©'70, p.1159)(my emphasis).
In harmony with this historical picture, Paul states in 1Thess.4 that the resurrected and transformed saints will be caught up (raptured) to "meet (apentesis) the Lord in the air" (v.17), in order to escort him on the last little portion of his arrival to earth at the Parousia, which is the glorious Second Coming. If Jesus were to snatch these people away from the earth and then leave, it would not fit with the picture portrayed by these two Greek words (parousia & apentesis).
In 1 Thess. 3:13, it is because of Christ's catching up of believers into the air, followed by their meeting and escorting (apentesis) of him as he finishes his arrival to earth, that Paul says the Parousia (coming & arrival) of our Lord Jesus is "with all his holy ones," as he descends to the earth.
In 2 Thess. 2:8, Paul looks ahead to the end of the Great Tribulation as he mentions the destruction of the Antichrist "whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his Parousia (coming)." ...This verse clearly tells us that the Parousia (which includes the saint's resurrection and rapture) will be the powerful event which will destroy the Antichrist at the end of the Great Tribulation. Jesus also depicts his Parousia as glorious and powerful: "For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the Parousia of the Son of Man" (Mat. 24:27). The Parousia will be gloriously visible to the whole world. -----So, it is clear from all of this, that the reign and authority of Antichrist will extend right up to, and be ended by, Christ's Parousia. The Parousia is Christ's powerful and glorious Second Coming -----during which the rapture of believers will also occur.
One further note: We are told in James 5:7,8 to be patient and to stand firm as we wait "until the Lord's Parousia." James knew things would get tough for Christians before the Parousia, but it will be at the Parousia that our relief will come. -----And also John exhorts perseverance: "dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his Parousia" (1 Jn. 2:28).
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[Watchmen for Christ]

[FONT=Arial,helvetica] [SIZE=+2]ANTICIPATING THE DAY OF THE LORD[/SIZE]
The "Day of the Lord" in Scripture is that marvelous day to which all true believers should look forward, ...and even work to hasten its coming (2 Pet. 3:11-12). We look forward to it, because the "Day of the Lord" will be the day of our salvation (1 Thess. 5:2-9) and physical redemption of our bodies, when the Lord Jesus will be "revealed from heaven ...in flaming fire" (2Thess.5:7). -----The Day of the Lord will begin with the descent of the Lord at his Second Coming, and the Rapture (catching up) of all true blievers (read 2Thess.2:1-8 & 1Thess. 4:15- 5:2), and it will extend right on through the 1000-year millennium (Joel 2:32- 3:1 & 3:16-21 ; and Zech.14). It is "the day" believers should look forward to in holy self-control and spiritual alertness (1 Thess. 5:2-8). -----So, why must we be so spiritually alert up until that "day"? Because we won't yet be glorified, but we'll still be struggling against our sinful flesh until that Day finally comes. But, we can be confident that the Lord will keep us strong "to the end" (1 Cor. 1:8), and blameless until "the Day" arrives, when all spiritual maturity will be completed in us (Phlp. 1:6,10).
So, when will the "Day of the Lord" begin? The major key to pinpointing its start, is to look at the great heavenly portents (signs) that Jesus and Joel spoke of. These heavenly signs are : the darkening of the sun and moon, along with the "falling" of stars, and the "shaking" of other heavenly bodies. Jesus clearly said that these signs would follow "immediately after" the Great Tribulation (read Mat. 24:29), and Joel said that these same heavenly signs would occur just before the Day of the Lord (see Joel 2:30-31 & 3:14-16).
-----Placed in order, then, the Great Tribulation must be completed before these heavenly signs appear, and the signs appear just before the Day of the Lord begins. Thus, the Day of the Lord comes after the Great Tribulation, with the heavenly portents inbetween. And as was demonstrated earlier, the Day of the Lord begins with the glorious Second Coming of Christ, along with the rapture; -----and in fact, Jesus quite nicely describes the rapture (a catching up of the saints) as following those heavenly portents after the great tribulation (Mat.24:30-31). Therefore, Christ's Second Coming, along with the rapture, cannot be imminent until these post-tribulational heavenly portents (signs) are occurring. Therefore, Paul says, "you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief" (v.4). Why not? ...Because the Scriptures give us the signs to look for just before "the Day" begins.
We also know the Parousia (with rapture) comes as part of the Day of the Lord, because in 2 Thess. 2:1-2 the normal flow of Paul's sentence mooves smoothly and naturally from speaking of the Lord's Parousia (coming) and rapture ("being gathered") in verse 1, right on to "the Day of the Lord" in verse 2, without a transition in thought. This shows us that in Paul's mind, the Parousia and the beginning of the Day of the Lord, are linked right together as happening together. Clearly, the Day of the Lord is "the" hopeful "day" of all believers' glorification and rapture (1 Cor. 15:50-52).
[SIZE=+2]THE LAST TRUMPET[/SIZE]
When we consider all the NT passages which speak of a trumpet sounding in relation to the glorious Second Coming of Christ, there is excellent agreement among them, indicating that the same last trumpet is spoken of. In Matthew ch.24, when Jesus speaks of this time, he says that immediately after the Great Tribulation, there will be awesome heavenly portents (v.29), and he will then be "coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory, and he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds" (v.30, 31). This trumpet heralds the Lord's Parousia ("coming" in v.27), including the rapture (gathering of the elect), and we see that his angels are part of the catching up of the saints.
This is very similar to 1 Thess. 4, where Paul says that at the Parousia ("coming" in v.15), "the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, and with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" (v.16), and then the rapture occurs (v.17). It is easy to note several parallels between this and Matthew 24.
Again, in harmony with the two passages above, in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul writes of the time of the believer's resurrection and change to a new, spiritual body: "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed ----- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed" (v.51-52). At the time of the believer's resurrection, we again read that there will be a trumpet sounded... but Paul adds here that it is the last trumpet ...which coordinates perfectly with the passages in Revelation, which we will consider next.
As John describes the tribulation period just before the Second Coming, in Revelation 8:6 through 11:15, he writes that seven trumpets will sound. When we read the contents of the seventh (or last) trumpet in Rev. ch.11, we read of loud voices declaring that "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever" (v.15), and the heavenly elders also declare, "you have taken your great power and have begun to reign" (v.17). This celebration of the commencement of Christ's reign on earth, pinpoints Christ's glorious Second Coming as taking place at the sounding of the seventh trumpet in this series of trumpets. This is the last trumpet, just as Paul had said in 1 Corinthians 15. The agreement here is good.
Some may find it confusing that after this seventh trumpet, John further describes tribulational events in Revelation, but there is a very good explanation. In his book, The Church and the Tribulation, (Zondervan, © 1973), Robert Gundry brings out that in all three series, the Seals (Rev.6), Trumpets (Rev.8-11), and Bowls of Wrath (Rev.16), the seventh item in each series occurs at the Second Coming of Christ. Gundry points out that this arrangement is favored by the "Semitic style of Revelation ...according to which the seals, trumpets, and bowls will find somewhat concurrent fulfillment." Also, the fact that later descriptions "add more detail is a well-recognized feature of narratival style in Semitic literature" (Gundry, p.75).
Note, for example, that we find this same Semitic literary technique in the creation account, where creation is overviewed in Genesis 1:1, and then, the creation process is fully outlined in Genesis 1:2 - 2:2. Finally, in a third outline of creation in Genesis 2:2-25, a different but compatible viewpoint is brought out, which runs concurrently with the previous two, but with a different focus.
So, the seals, trumpets and bowls would start at different times, run concurrently and all end together at the Second Coming, approximately thus:

[/FONT]*Jesus Christ returns at the Last trump=7th and then our gathering to Him matt 24:29-31
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SEALS:1 2 3 4 5 6 7
TRUMPETS:starting at the 3rd seal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
BOWLS: starting after the 6th trumpet 1234567

[SIZE=-2](Note: The sevens should line up straight, but different computer monitors change the format alignment)[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

[FONT=Arial,helvetica] Note some advantages in the above arrangement: The seals, trumpets and bowls increase in frequency and severity, similar to birthpangs (Mat.24:8); The sixth bowl (Rev.16:12-16) is preparatory for the sixth trumpet (Rev.9:13-16); And the sixth seal (Rev.6:12-14) fits in very well with the post-tribulational portents (signs) that Joel and Christ spoke of, which come just before Christ's glorious Second Coming ( Joel 2:30-31 & Mat.24:29-31) to set up his kingdom on earth (Rev. 11:15-18). So, the seventh item from each of the three series, all happen together at the time of the Second Coming ...even the seventh seal's "silence in heaven for half an hour" (Rev.8:1) occurs at this time, which is reasonable if the Lord Jesus along with all the heavenly armies have gone to earth for a time during the Second Coming.

[SIZE=+2]KEY WORD STUDIES[/SIZE]
It is highly informative to focus on three special Greek words that impact the discussion on the rapture and the Second Coming.
The first word, "Epiphany" means "the visible appearance of the Lord Jesus on earth at the end" of the age (ref: New Int'l. Dict. of N.T. Theology, Vol.3, Colin Brown, p.319). To the ancients, this word indicated the appearance of God on earth, so that humans see him there. The "Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament," (by Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich, 1957, p.304), states that the Greek word "epiphany" means "a visible manifestation of a hidden divinity," and in the literature of the New Testament, this word speaks "only of Christ's appearing on earth." In addition, Arndt & Gingrich's lexicon states that "epiphany" occurs in 1Tim.6:14 ; 2Tim. 4:1,8 ; Titus 2:13 ; and 2Thess. 2:8, in which they all speak "of Jesus' coming in judgment." ---Thus, taken all together, the "epiphany" of Jesus can be nothing other than the glorious and visible Coming of Christ when he ends up among people on the earth in judgment ...which is clearly post-tribulational.
Paul exhorts Timothy to "keep this commandment without spot or blame until the appearing (epiphany) of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Tim.6:14). So, Paul is saying to persevere faithfully until the big goal is reached : the post-trib epiphany.
In addition, Paul declares that it is the "epiphany" of Christ's "parousia" which destroys the Antichrist (2Thess.2:8), therefore, it is the glorious epiphany (appearing) of Christ the God-man on earth which destroys the Antichrist just after the end of the great tribulation.
And then, Paul tells Titus: "we wait for the blessed hope ----the glorious appearing (epiphany) of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13). Thus, the "blessed hope" we look to and wait for is not some secret disappearance before the great tribulation (as in the pre-trib or mid-trib rapture), but rather, it is the glorious and visible epiphany of Christ's Coming to earth in judgment, at which time the Antichrist is destroyed, ...which is unavoidably post-tribulational.
The second word, "Apocalypse," is the disclosure and "revelation of Christ when he appears in the fullness of his power" (ref: New Int'l Dict. of N.T Theology, Vol.3, Colin Brown, p.315). In addition, Arndt and Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon (cited above, & p.92) states that when this word "apocalypse" is used to talk about Christ in eschatology (the last days/last things), it speaks of "the parousia," (see "parousia" in the first half of this article). ------Clearly, this word "apocalypse" ("revelation") is the powerful and glorious post-trib Coming of Christ, when he appears and is revealed to the whole world (Rev.19:11-16 & Mat.24:29-31), ...and Paul uses this word when he says, "do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed (apocalypse)" (1 Cor.1:7). -----So, were the Corinthians and Paul eagerly waiting for a "secret rapture," where all the believers simply disappear? -----No. They were looking and waiting for the powerfully glorious "apocalypse" or appearing of Christ ...which can only be post-tribulational. (& See the section below on "Relief").
Peter also uses this word, "apocalypse" , as he writes: "trials... come so that your faith ...may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed (apocalypse)" (1 Pt. 1:7). -----When do pre-tribulationists expect this praise and honor to come from the Lord Jesus? At the pre-trib rapture. ...But that's not when Peter says it will come. He says it will come at the apocalypse, when Christ is revealed to the world in the fullness of his power. Peter continues: "set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed (apocalypse)" (1 Pt.1:13). -----So, your hope is to be riveted on the apocalypse ...which is clearly post-tribulational.
The third word, "PHANEROO," (pronounced "fawn-air-AHH-oh") means "to reveal, manifest;" ---and according to Colin Brown it is used as a synonym for the above word we studied : "apocalypse" (DNTT, Vol.3, Colin Brown, p.321). Arndt & Gingrich (cited, & on p.860) write that "phaneroo" indicates Christ's "appearance in the world." The apostle Peter writes: "when the Chief Shepherd appears (phaneroo), you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away" (1 Pet.5:4). -----And when will this crown of glory be given to believers? While the tribulation is taking place on the earth below? No. Believers will receive their "crown of glory" at the time of the phaneroo-apocalypse, when Christ appears and is revealed on the earth, ...which is post-tribulational.
John says, "continue in him, so that when he appears (phaneroo) we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming (parousia)" (1 Jn.2:28). So, when will we ultimately need the confidence of having faithfully followed Christ?...and when will the Lord "size us up"? It won't be some time during the tribulation, but when he gloriously appears ("phaneroo") at the apocalypse and the post-trib parousia (see parousia section). Finally, John says, "when he appears (phaneroo), we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2). And when will this happen, that believers will "become like" Jesus, or in other words, be glorified in resurrected bodies? Will it be just before (or in the middle of) the tribulation? ---No. According to the inerrant word written down by John, it will be at the phaneroo-apocalypse ...which is post-tribulational.
[SIZE=+2]RELIEF[/SIZE]
A very telling scripture in regard to the rapture, is found in 2 Thess. 1:5-10. As Paul writes, he is talking about the earthly suffering and persecution of the Church (vs.1), and he includes himself in this persecuted group (v.7). But Paul then says that God will pay back the persecutors of the Church, and that the Church will be relieved from this suffering and persecution ...and when will this relief happen? "This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed (apocalypse) from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels" (v.7). Pre- and Mid- tribulationists are expecting their relief from the world's persecutions at some secret rapture time before the tribulation's end, which would not be Christ's glorious coming. But Paul expected his relief to come at the glorious revelation or "apocalypse" of Christ (see word study above), which can only be the coming of Christ in great power and judgment, just after the Great Tribulation. The glorious apocalypse is also described in 1 Pet. 1:7,13, in 1 Cor. 1:7 and in Revelation 19:11-18. It is at this apocalypse that our relief comes, and no sooner. Although the Church will face persecution at the hands of Antichrist, Christians must not let fear keep them from facing the truth, but instead, should let God's love cast out all fear.
[SIZE=+2]TRIBULATION SAINTS "IN" CHRIST[/SIZE]
The fact that there are many saints (true believers in Jesus) on earth who face Antichrist during the Tribulation, is not disputed (Rev. 7:9-14; 13:7,10; 14:12,13; 17:6; 20:4). Pre-tribulationists, however, feel that the entire body of Christ (the Church) will have been raptured just before the beginning of the Tribulation, and that there can be no Church on earth during the tribulation, so these "tribulation saints" we speak of in the above verses, would not be part of the body of Christ (the Church). -----However, those who teach this pre-trib view may not realize that as they try to propose a group of Jesus-believing, blood-bought, New Testament saints "in" Christ, which are not part of the Church (Christ's body), this brings up very serious problems concerning the doctrines of justification, reconciliation and redemption ...indeed, such a viewpoint puts the biblical doctrine of salvation under attack.
The sacrifice of Christ benefits any truly repentant sinners who have sincere faith and trust in Christ, but this benefit is conferred as God automatically baptizes all true believers in the Holy Spirit, which places them "into" the Body of Christ (1Cor.12:13), which is the Church (Eph.1:22,23), so that they are "IN Christ" (2Cor.5:17). Being "in Christ" is the place of justification (Gal.2:17), redemption and forgiveness of sins (Eph.1:7). What's more, Paul teaches that a person who is in the body of Christ, has died to the requirements and condemnation of the OT law (Rom. 7:4,6) ----and thus, anyone who is not in the body of Christ remains condemned by the law (Rom.2:12 ; Gal.3:10-11 ; Jas.2:10). There is no other place, than in Christ's body, for those spiritual transactions in the NT. It will only be people "in Christ" (and in his body), who have been crucified with him, who have died and been burried with him, and are made alive with him (read Rom.6:1-10). For anyone to be saved, God places Jews or Gentiles "in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross" (Eph.2:16)... and that one body of reconciliation is the Church (Eph.1:22-23). There will never be any other way to justification, reconciliation to God, redemption, resurrection and eternal life, than by being "IN Christ," which is in his body, the Church ...anything else is another way (and really, another gospel) than is found in the Bible. ...It would take some major explaining to tell how a person could be "in Christ" but not in his body. If the tribulation saints are not in Christ's body, then how are they saved? -----Consider especially verses like Romans 12:5, which says, "so in Christ we who are many form one body." Paul says explicitly there that being "in" Christ means being in his "body", and he uses those two ideas as being inseparable. -----Biblical Christianity can never advance any other way of justification and redemption, other than being "IN Christ."
So, the pre-trib notion of a group of "tribulation saints" who are saved and redeemed during the tribulation, but yet are not part of the body of Christ (the Church), is actually a contradiction in terms, which rests on very shabby theology that undermines the biblical doctrine of salvation. -----The true situation during the tribulation will be: there will be Spirit-baptized saints who are "washed ...in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev.7:14), so, they are blood-bought and justified saints; they will be born-again Christians "who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus" (Rev.12:17), and who "remain faithful to Jesus" (Rev.14:12). ...And very crucial for this discussion: note those saints who "die IN the Lord" during the Great Tribulation (see Rev.14:12-13 with 6:9-11) ...remembering from our previous discussion, that being "in the Lord," or "in Christ," is precisely the NT description of a believer who is part of the Church, the body of Christ. There is no possible way that these tribulation saints are not part of the Church.
The corporate body of Christ first came into being when believers were first baptized in the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:5 & 2:1-4). Since then, every true believer is automatically placed into the body of Christ by the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (1Cor.12:13), so that they are "in Christ" (and this must now include all Old Testament saints, as well as tribulation saints). Redemptive union with Christ, in his body (the Church), has always been God's plan for all believers of all ages. Paul says that Jesus is the Savior of "his body" (Eph.5:23), and it would take some major explaining to show that he is the Savior of anybody else. Anybody who is not part of the body of Christ, therefore, will not be saved. Jew or Gentile, there is no other provision in all of eternity for the salvation of sinners other than by being in the body of Christ. -----So, unavoidably, since there are saved people on earth during the tribulation, the body of Christ, the Church, must be present on earth at that time. Obviously, those who "die in the Lord" during the tribulation will be part of Christ's body, the Church, and they too (like all who are in Christ) will rise at the first resurrection and be raptured (1 Thess.4:16-18). Thus, the rapture must follow the tribulation, during which those tribulation saints "die IN the Lord."



cont'd

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[Watchmen for Christ]

[FONT=Arial,helvetica] [SIZE=+2]SAINTS UNDER GOD'S WRATH?[/SIZE]
Some Bible students are deeply concerned that since members of Christ's body (the Church) will be present on earth during the tribulation, they would be subject to God's wrath ...but this is an unnecessary concern. No saint in any place or time will ever be subject to God's wrath (1 Thess.5:9). In fact, right now, at this very moment today before the tribulation, "God's wrath is being revealed from heaven against all the... wickedness of men" (Rom.1:18 and 1 Thess.2:16), and this present wrath of God never touches a single saint. We have already established that the "tribulation saints" are IN Christ, and justified "by his blood" (Rev.7:14), so it would likewise be impossible that they would be subject to God's tribulational wrath or any other divine wrath.
In contrast, however, God's tribulational (& post-tribulational) wrath will be poured out upon the "earth-dwellers" (Rev.8:13) who are of the earth, and the bowls of tribulational wrath (Rev.16) will be poured out only on the wicked who take the mark and worship the beast (v.2) and kill the saints, and blaspheme God, and refuse to repent (v.8-11). This is remarkably similar to the plagues of the Exodus that affected the Egyptians but not Israel ...in fact, in Revelation 15, those who are victorious over the Antichrist, sing "the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb" (Rev.15:3). Then finally, far from being touched by God's wrath, the saints will be raptured, and join in with the armies of heaven as the returning Christ comes to judge, and "treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God" (Rev.19:11-21), and, along with Christ, "the saints will judge the world" (1 Cor. 6:2-3).
Although tribulation saints will experience very tough times , persecution and death from Antichrist during the tribulation, they will abide under the sufficient grace of God, and never his wrath, setting their hope on their soon-coming Lord Jesus.
[SIZE=+2]SAINTS TO FACE ANTICHRIST[/SIZE]
As we have established, there will be New Testament saints on earth during the Great Tribulation: blood-bought, justified, Holy Spirit-baptized saints IN Christ ...members of his body, the Church. It is unavoidable. They will be protected from God's wrath, but in Revelation 13 we see that the Antichrist (beast) will be permitted for 3 1/2 years "to make war against the saints and to conquer them" (v.5,7). Daniel makes the same point, agreeing that the saints will be subject to him for 3 1/2 years (Dan. 7:21,25).
We have already determined that the event which destroys the Antichrist, is the glorious Second Coming of Christ, ...therefore the time of Antichrist's great persecution of the Church, is the 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation just before the Second Coming. We must remember, however, that even though we know the duration of this persecution under Antichrist, we still will not be able to pinpoint the day or hour of the Lord's Coming (Mat.24:36), because Jesus said that "those days (of the great tribulation) will be "cut off" (Mat.24:21-22 & Mk.13:19-20). So, God won't allow the full 3 1/2 years to run out their course, and we don't know how many days he'll cut off. (See answer to this in "Rapture FAQs").
Though the Antichrist will "conquer" the saints in physical, political, and economic terms, this will not be the whole story. The Church will still faithfully carry the gospel to all nations, and then the end will come (Mat.24:14). And not all Christians will die: Some will live until the Parousia (coming) of the Lord (1 Thess.4:15). The saints will be the ONLY people on earth guaranteed to resist and not to worship the Antichrist (Rev.13:8), and to resist taking the mark (Rev.14:9-12). The saints are the only ones who will not be deceived by the satanic deceit and powerful delusions of the Antichrist (2 Thess.2:9-12). Through all the Devil's attacks in the tribulation, believers "overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death" (Rev.12:11).
[SIZE=+2]IN SUMMARY[/SIZE]
Whereas there is no explicitly clear scriptural evidence which places any component parts of the rapture before the tribulation period, -----there is explicit and direct evidence for a resurrection of believers at the start of the millennium (Rev.20:4), and explicit statements of the post-tribulaional coming of Christ "on the clouds" with glory, and with a trumpet call, and with a "gathering" up of the elect (Christians) by angels (Mat.24:29-31). Evidence for a supposed pre-tribulational rapture is not clear and direct like this, but is only inferred by implications of different sorts.
Although Antichrist will persecute the Church during the Great Tribulation (the 3 1/2 years just before the glorious Second Coming of Christ), still, all the saints will overcome him spiritually by remaining faithful to Christ, and some saints will live through to Christ's Parousia (arrival to earth). When the Parousia happens, Christ appears in power, glory and wrathful judgment, the dead in Christ are raised, all Christians are caught up to meet Christ in the sky (raptured), the Antichrist is overthrown by the bright appearance of the "Parousia," and Christ lands on earth with all his saints, to begin his Millennial kingdom. -----This viewpoint is classic Christian theology. It has been so held for almost 20 centuries, since the apostles and early Church fathers, and thus is called "historic" Pre-millennialism. May the Lord guide and bless his saints to glorify him in the momentous days apparently soon to be on us.

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[FONT=Arial,helvetica]- by R. Totten, MDiv - © 1997 Fair Use cited for educational purposes


again I differ with the good reverend as matt 27 proves the graves have already opened and the saints rose AFTER Jesus and the saints then walked into the streets and appeared before many. I cor 15:44 says we rise spiritual bodies. Christ Jesus is ascended and so do we as Stephan in Acts 7. no need for a Christian to have to wait to be resurrected when then rose the last day in the grave WITH Jesus already and we who die saved return WITh Jesus I thess 4:13-14 IF we believe He rose.


[/FONT]Matthew 27:50-54

King James Version (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.


1 Corinthians 15:40-45

King James Version (KJV)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


why the change from flesh to spiritual?


1 Corinthians 15:49-50

King James Version (KJV)

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.



Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Matthew 24:29-31
King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


II pet 3 says the heavens and earth are on fire,the elements melt,all this dissolves I cor 15 paul says we all change into spiritual bodies Jesus says in Matthew 22:30 Mark 12:25 we'll be as the angels in heaven


Zechariah 14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

THE AD HOMINEM ATTACK: The ad hominem simply means attacking the person making the argument, rather than the argument, itself. these attacks will often incorporate religious bigotry and are almost always used with an appeal to fear.




HOW TO COUNTER
Inform any observers that your opponent is obviously at a loss to counter your arguments, and happily accept his concession on the point at hand.


I am a Creation believer

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Matt 24:20-34


20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Explanation of above scripture: This is a direct correlation to the Parable Of The Fig tree. God is very natural in the way he teaches us, and throughout the Bible He uses nature as an example to us. In other words, harvest time (the second advent and our gathering back to Christ) is not in the winter, harvest time is after the summer growing season. if you are following a "Christ" out of season, then you are following the impostor.
​

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Explanation of above scripture: This is the tribulation ignored by "rapturists". The first tribulation is the coming of antichrist claiming to be the True Christ and the flood of lies that he carries with him to deceive the world. As well as the persecution of all that will not bow down to him as the True Messiah.
​

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Explanation of above scripture: Originally, satan was to have 7 years, half that being 3 ½ years, to work his deceptions. You will read of that in [Dan 9:27]. In our verse above [Mt 24:22], as well as [Mk 13:20], and other places, it speaks of a shortening of that time. And finally, in [Rev 9:5 and 10], it sets the duration to 5 literal months. Once again you see Jesus reinforce the fact that this chapter is written to and for the Elect.
​

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Explanation of above scripture: Let's get a handle on what Jesus is saying here, He is saying that if anyone comes saying that they are Him (the True Messiah) then you are not to believe them. You will instinctively know the True Christ at His return, but you may not necessarily know the false christ as a fake when he come FIRST. Jesus is telling you that there is a false one coming first! This is a warning to you that if someone tells you that Christ has returned it can not be the True Christ for several reasons:

• It is written, that when Christ's returns, every knee shall bow. All will know him at this time, even the deceived. Therefore if someone has to tell you Christ is returned, it is the false one that they speak of.
• Also, when Christ returns, at the 7th trump, all people will be turned to Spirit bodies, therefore if you are still in the flesh, then the true Christ is not here! Our Father is so good to us, that he guaranties that when the True Christ returns, there will be no doubt as to who he is. Unfortunately, those who listen to false teaching, will be already worshiping the antichrist when the true Christ comes, believing him (satan) to be the True Christ.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Explanation of above scripture: The Elect are the ones that we read about earlier who withstand satan's deception. See the THE ANTICHRIST In-depth Bible study. Antichrist has been given power to exercise supernatural abilities in his attempt to deceive the world [Rev 13:11-18], and Jesus is telling us that it will be quite formidable!

Rev 13:11-18
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (KJV)
​

25 Behold, I have told you before.

Explanation of above scripture: How has Jesus foretold us all things? I mean, none of us was alive 2000 years age when Jesus walked the earth and talked to man in person. Jesus and His Father God tells us all things by the book that they insured, through Divine intervention, that we would have. They sent us the Written Word, that is why it is imperative that you care enough about Them and yourself to study it!Jesus has given us all fair warnings, have you heard Him? I hope your only defense on judgment day isn't that you were deceived by satan because you were too busy making a buck in your lifetime to study the Letter of love, instruction, and warning that was written directly to you - The Bible! Below is a second witness from the Gospel of Mark:

Mark 13:22-23 (Christ speaking)
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall
shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. (KJV)
​

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Explanation of above scripture: This is a repeat of the of the warning in verse [23] above. Given twice for emphasis. Whenever you see Jesus repeat himself in the same subject, you had better pay attention, it means that what is being said is of paramount importance! There is no wasted action with Jesus, every thing he said and did was for a reason.
​

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Explanation of above scripture: From the East to the West means the entire compass, the whole world shall see him, when he returns, this is why no one will have to tell you Christ has returned, and if they do tell you, before you knew it intuitively for yourself, then they are showing you an impostor!
​

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Explanation of above scripture: Verse 30 emphatically starts with "And then shall..." When? After the false one manifests himself, after the events of the preceding verses come to pass! This verse takes place at the Second Advent.
As it is prophesied, satan (as the antichrist) will come to this earth in the final times as an instead-of christ, an impostor to the true Christ prior to the prophesied Second Advent of Jesus Christ. Satan and his accompanying fallen angels will have but five months reign {Rev 9:5 & 10} (which was shortened {Mat 24:21-22 & Mk 13:19-20} by the Grace of God from the 3½ years of the prophecies in the Old Testament book of Daniel). The True Jesus Christ comes at the last (7th) Trump {Rev 11:15-}, which leads into the Millennium (1000 year) period {Rev 20:4-5}, then Judgment Day including the casting into the Lake of Fire (commonly referred to as Hell) of those who did not overcome {Rev 20:11-15}, then the eternal Heaven Age having no end {Rev 21:1-4}.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Explanation of above scripture: What trumpet will Jesus send His Angels to reap the world? the 7th Trump [Rev 11:15], which comes after the antichrist arrives in the 6th Trump [Rev 9:13].
​

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Explanation of above scripture: The Parable of the Fig tree marks this generation as the final one. This would be another study for another day, as it is quite lengthy. But suffice it to say that here Jesus is telling us the SEASON of His return, but no-one will know the HOUR. See the THE PARABLE OF THE SOWER In-depth Bible study for reference to the Parable of the Fig Tree.
​

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Explanation of above scripture: When you understand the Parable of the Fig Tree you know when the time is very very near. In this 24th chapter of Matthew you are being told the events that must come to pass immediately before the antichrist comes to this earth.
​

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Explanation of above scripture:

• What "generation shall not pass"? This one, the one you are living in, the one that started in 1948 or 1967*(see below note), the generation of the Fig Tree.
• Till what "things be fulfilled"? The things we just read, the coming of the antichrist the impostor! Jesus told you in verse 26 above, that when they tell you Christ is here or Christ is there: "believe it not". You remember the true definition of the word 'antichrist' from page one of this study, he is the impostor who comes first.

Israel joined together again as a Nation

thanks to Nick at biblestudysite for any use of your studies for educational purposes
​

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

The Lord's 2nd advent and our gathering to Him:

Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




peter warns the epistles of paul are hard to understand and the unlearned and unstable wrest with them some being lead astray by the error of the wicked to their destruction:

2 Peter 3:15-18

King James Version (KJV)

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.




Jesus Christ warns before His coming and our gathering false Christs come claiming to be Him (mk 13:5-6,mt24:4-5,lk21:8)


Matthew 24:21-28

King James Version (KJV)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


How are people lead astray to fall for the coming of false Christs , claiming to be Christ , BEFORE His post trib coming and our gathering? Jesus says in mt 13:30 tares are gathered 1st so how can so many be deceived as the scripture says WILL happen? how does satan fool so many into worshiping him or his image or into taking his mark?

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

2nd Thess 2:1-4
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, exceptthere come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (KJV)
​

paul warned us not to be deceived for the falling away first and revealing of satan must come before the parousia and our gathering the *har*pad*zo

paul repeats in vs.8-9 the Lord is him who's parousia is after the working of satan with all power signs and lying wonders not before so how is it so many think Christ Jesus is coming before Matt 24:29-31 when HE said He would? How are people being lead astray by misunderstanding paul's epistles to their destruction as peter says in II pet 3?


1 Corinthians 3:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.






1 Corinthians 6:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


:amen



2 Corinthians 6:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

what does the Lord's word say:


Matt 13
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


the tares are gathered BEFORE the wheat, not the church 1st

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


the tares are children of the wicked one, they are gathered out first (the falling away first, the purging of tares from the wheat)

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.


the wicked are severed from the just, not the just fly away , Jesus warns us what the tribulation is:



Matthew 24:4-5

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


Mark 13:5-6
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.



Luke 21:8

8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.


Matthew 24:21-31

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25 Behold, I have told you before.26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.




According to Jesus Christ the false Christs come claiming to be Him and THEN He returns and we are gathered together after their tribulation:



29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


so how can one be lead astray? the Lord said His coming is post trib , AFTER the coming of false christs (leading to satan =their destruction)


Is it possible to be mislead to the coming of false Christs by misunderstanding the timing of pauls epistles ? how can that be since paul said the falling away first and revealing of satan comes before the Lord's parousia and our gathering on the Lord's Day?

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Jesus warns believers that false Christs shall come claiming to be HIM with signs and lying wonders before HIS post trib parousia and our gathering, so how could it be if possible that one might be lead astray to fall away to false Christs before HIS post trib return by misunderstanding paul's epistles?


Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


*paul says be not ignorant concerning the saved dead (with hope) sorrow not (as the unsaved have no hope) , for IF we believe Jesus died and rose (and we'd better!) EVEN so do we (which are saved and die) return WITH HIM zech 14,jude 1:14-15,rev 19 armies in heaven follow Him


*Matthew 27:50-54
King James Version (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.


*the graves have ALREADY opened and the saints came out AFTER His resurrection, He ascended and so do we as Stephan did in spiritual bodies I cor 15:44


I thess 4 cont'd:


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


*according to the Lord , false Christs come before HIS post trib parousia and our gathering mt 24 mk 13 lk 21, tares are gathered FIRST mk 13, paul says in II thess 2 the falling away first and revealing of satan must come before the Lord's parousia and our gathering and paul repeats in
vs.8-9 the Lord's parousia is after the working of satan.

*we the saved can't precede the saved dead (cause their already there)

*paul quotes the Lord's words of matt 24:30-31:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

*Christ rose first, the saved dead rose with Him matt 27 and we continue to do so until the Lord's parousia as members of His body IF we believe HE died and rose!


*paul never says the Lord's coming is pre trib, or claim this is a different parousia other than what Jesus preached


*AER=breath g109 breath=g4151 spirit the graves have already risen and the flesh bodies came out with Jesus to PROVE HE defeated satan! AMEN now He is ascended and so do we ascend as spiritual bodies:

1 Corinthians 15:40-45

King James Version (KJV)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.


Mark 12:23-26

23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?


Matthew 22:28-32

28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


Mark 12:24-27

24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.



John 11:23-27

King James Version (KJV)

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Acts 7:55-60

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

[Randy]

* 1st taken are tares mt 13:30

I think those caught up are Christians and those christians are given new bodies. Those left behind are unbelievers and have bodies made of the dust of the earth. The outcome is stated together for all such as in Daniel 12. While I believe judgment is pronounced against them (2nd coming - non-christians) ,which can't be changed, they are not lined up and executed at that time. After the 1000 years comes that judgment. The powers of evil in the heavenly realm's will be released again from the abyss after the 1000 years and they, with those that they deceived, will try to change the judgments against them. Gog and Magog. A mighty battle which they will lose. Rev gives more focus on the timeline of the 1st and 2nd resurrection and I am premil because of such teaching.

 

[Eugene]

I'm generally in agreement with what you posted. But this battle in the valley, doesn't it not really take place? The Lord wipes them out. (Not really a battle!).

Armageddon is prior millennial, and the time when Gog and Magog is deceived to compass the camp of the saints will occur at the end of the thousand years, and God just turns them into crispy critters; not much of a fight there.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Who are the Elders? (I think it is the church?)

It is the church representative of them that are the dead in Christ to rise first. Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[thethinker]

Don't spiritualize away an army of 200,000,000 as being something other than God's wrath.

Please don't literalize a book that claims to be symbolic in its prologue.

"And he SIGNIFIED it through His angel to His servant John."

This means that the manner of communication is symbolic.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

A mighty battle which they will lose.

I'm generally in agreement with what you posted. But this battle in the valley, doesn't it not really take place? The Lord wipes them out. (Not really a battle!).

In Matthew 24:21 Jesus is responding to four Disciples in a private briefing about His 2nd Coming. Matthew 24:21-22 Jesus is in effect quoting from Daniel 12:1. He is labeling this period as the Great Tribulation, he gives it that very label. Another label for this time is The Time of Jacobs Trouble Jeremiah 30:7. From that event, to the end of the 7 year period, is the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is actually 3-1/2 years and not 7. The last half of the 70th week of Daniel. Technically, Jesus defined the Great Tribulation as the last half of the week. The end of the 70th week of Daniel concludes the Great Tribulation and then the Millennium begins.

Plus, in Revelation when John is there having his vision and is in heaven (Revelation 4), the 24 Elders are there, correct? Who are the Elders? (I think it is the church?)...this is before the Lamb opens the scroll (chapter6?) and begins to pour out God wrath on the earth, right, still with me? (Correct me if I'm wrong!)...



The church is already there! How can the church be in heaven, if they are to go through the great tribulation?

the church is already gathering to Christ in heaven as believers who die saved (stephan: acts 7) the graves have already opened up and the saints have already begun to rise after Christ Jesus rose (matt 27) in flesh to prove He rose and had defeated death.

we continue to rise as members of His body in spiritual bodies (I cor 15:44) as Christ ascended into heaven so do we as Jesus said we'll be as the angels in heaven.


John 11:23-27

King James Version (KJV)

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.



the resurrection of the saved dead continues as Christians don't go into the grave IF we believe Jesus died in flesh and rose again so we return With HIM zech 14,I thess 4:13-14,rev 19

Christ first, the saved dead follow, then we who are alive and remain till His post trib coming (matt 24:29-31)

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

* 1st taken are tares mt 13:30

I think those caught up are Christians and those christians are given new bodies. Those left behind are unbelievers and have bodies made of the dust of the earth. The outcome is stated together for all such as in Daniel 12. While I believe judgment is pronounced against them (2nd coming - non-christians) ,which can't be changed, they are not lined up and executed at that time. After the 1000 years comes that judgment. The powers of evil in the heavenly realm's will be released again from the abyss after the 1000 years and they, with those that they deceived, will try to change the judgments against them. Gog and Magog. A mighty battle which they will lose. Rev gives more focus on the timeline of the 1st and 2nd resurrection and I am premil because of such teaching.

Hey Randy,
As you know paul tells us what type of bodies they will be in I cor 15:40-45 (spiritual bodies/aer/ breaths/spirits) Peter tells us in II pet 3 the heavens and earth shall be on fire at Christ's parousia (the change paul talks of)

the powers of the pit are released by satan when he falls as a star, his role/office as antiChrist (along with his angels) are destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' parousia (after the trib mt 24:29-31) satan himself is bound 1000yrs and released to test one last and final time before being devoured by fire rev 20.


tares (satan's children mt 13) are taken first (mt 13:30) by the false Christs claiming to be Jesus (falling away) matt 24:21-28,mk 19-28,lk 21,rev 12-14,dan 11)

we believers who refuse the false Christs are left behind . we who refuse to defile our wedding garments by worshiping satan,his image or taking his mark.rev 19/20

Jesus told us we'll be betrayed,beaten and delivered to death but not to meditate what we will say for He will give us what to say through the Holy Spirit
mk 13/lk 21


Jesus coming starts the millennium :yes

 

[Eugene]

Don't spiritualize away an army of 200,000,000 as being something other than God's wrath.

Please don't literalize a book that claims to be symbolic in its prologue.

"And he SIGNIFIED it through His angel to His servant John."

This means that the manner of communication is symbolic.

Hi Brother Thethinker and welcome to CF.net. The word “Signify†also has the synonym of show. Who to you was Jesus’ angel that showed these things to John? Thanks.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

1st Thessalonians 4:17:

Lets jump all the way in and start off here with the 'granddaddy' of them all, the Rapturist's 'big-gun' so to speak. And I must honestly admit that at face value, taking this verse alone and removing it from the context of the forth chapter of 1st Thessalonians, it would appear as though this is the 'smoking gun' of the Rapture theory. But then that is the inherent problem with all of those who throw 'one-liners' and 'random verses' at people from the pulpit; They can mould a nice neat little package of out-of-context and unrelated Scriptures into anything they wish to. Below is the Rapturist's Crowning Glory, their 'Hope Diamond,' and their 'Holy Grail':

1Thes 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV)
​

Sounds good, doesn't it? I will even admit that the above verse, sitting here on the page all naked and alone sure sounds like a Rapture to me. But I don't have the luxury of looking through the wrong end of a telescope. I, as all serious Bible students are exhorted to do as the Berean's did: "...and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." {Acts 17:11}, and, "...comparing spiritual things with spiritual." {1 Cor 2:13}.
Below, we shall do what the Rapture teachers cannot possibly be doing, we will look at this verse in the context that the Holy Spirit put it in. We will back-up and pick it up a couple of verses before this one and to set the subject and the object of the verse clearly in our minds, so as to be assured that we are interpreting it in the proper context.
1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant#1, brethren, concerning them which are asleep#2, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope#3.

Explanation of above: #1 I would not have you to be ignorant: = Apostle Paul is telling us that he wishes to inform us of something so that we are not without understanding in the matter. #2 concerning them which are asleep: = Paul is now telling us what it is that he wishes to understand; He wants us to know what happens to those who 'sleep' (die). #3 that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope: = Paul is saying that the reason that he wants to inform us of what happens when people die is so that we do not feel sad like those who have no hope of a resurrection into everlasting life (the heathen, who believe not upon Christ, having no hope of a resurrection into eternal life). Paul does not want us Christians to be like the heathen unbelievers. The subject of these verses is: "Where are the dead?" Nothing more, nothing less.
​

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again#1, even so them also which sleep in Jesus#2 will God bring with him#3.
Explanation of above: #1 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again: = Paul is saying that we Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead, that is what makes us Christians. #2even so them also which sleep in Jesus: = In like manner as Jesus died and resurrected, so also will those who died in Christ (as Christians) resurrect from the dead into an eternal life. #3 God bring with him: = God will bring these resurrected Christians with Him. God can 'bring them with Him' because they are already with Him. You cannot 'bring' someone with you unless they are with you prior to the 'bringing.' At the moment of death, our spiritual body and soul return to God and our flesh body decomposes back to the dust whence it came (i.e., carbon, minerals...).
There is a greater truth in this verse that has been twisted by the Rapture teachers. They tell us that this is saying "the dead will be Raptured (along with the living 'saints' during the Rapture)." This is incorrect on many fronts. For one, it says "which sleep in Jesus" and then that "God bring with him". Jesus and God are two different words. One is the Son of God on the earth and one is Almighty God in Heaven Himself. Observe below:

Jesus: Greek word #2424 Iesous (ee-ay-sooce'); of Hebrew origin [3091]; Jesus (i.e. Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites. [this is Jesus Christ the Son of God].
God: Greek word #2316 theos (theh'-os); of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the definite article [which IS present in the Greek manuscripts here!] the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very. [This is Almighty God the Father].
​

Now according to their Rapture theory, it is Jesus the Son of God who comes to Rapture people away, therefore the phrase from the above Scripture "God bring with him" can make no sense regarding their Rapture theory.
However, we know from the Bible that Jesus Christ shall come to earth at His Second Advent. What the phrase "God bring with him" really means is that God shall resurrect the dead into eternal life THROUGH the atoning work of Jesus Christ. Once again, this is simply stating that just as Christ resurrected from the dead into eternal life, we also can be resurrected into the life eternal through Christ Jesus.
Dr. E.W. Bullinger, in the The Companion Bible describes this phase as: "God will through Jesus bring with Him." pg.1792. We would ask you: bring where? We know that Almighty God Himself is not physically present with His creation until the "New Heaven and new earth' {Rev 21:1}, so He (God) isn't bringing anyone anywhere until after Judgment day {Rev 20:11-15}. We observe that the verse started out with "Jesus died and rose again", so therefore, what it is saying is that God will bring them (those who sleep/died in good standing through/with Jesus) into the resurrection through Jesus Christ. I hope that is clear. Please understand that It is far more difficult to 'prove' a negative (prove that something isn't) than it is to 'prove' a positive (prove that something is), so we may appear redundant at times. But since we are debunking the Rapture theory we are constantly engaged in proving that what they say is not true nor is it possible.
The Rapturist's concept that our souls are in the grave with our decomposing bodies is horrible, pagan even. But we remember that Paul started this Scripture by saying that he didn't want us to think like the heathen who have no hope of life after death: "that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." For they say that when Jesus comes to Rapture the living 'saints' (them) that He also will Rapture the dead 'saints' from the cemeteries of the world. But we know through Scripture that this is impossible because our souls go back immediately to God at the very moment of our death, and only our discarded flesh tabernacles (bodies) rot back to dust in the grave from whence they came. Therefore there is nothing to resurrect from a tomb. You remember what the Angels said to the women when they went to visit the tomb of Jesus after He was buried: "And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?" {Luke 24:5}. Now Jesus' resurrection was a little different than ours is, for Jesus resurrected body and spirit, we discard our bodies and resurrect in spirit:
Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high*, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home*, and the mourners go about the streets*:
6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed*, or the golden bowl be broken*, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain*, or the wheel broken at the cistern*.

*These are Hebrew euphemisms for death.
​

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (KJV)
There are no souls in the cemetery, only decomposing spiritless flesh corpses. This should be a comfort to those of us that have lost loved ones. They are with the Heavenly Father that created their very souls!

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

I feel the need to really nail this point home. In the below Scripture, Jesus brings a dead girl back to life. See if you can pick-up where her soul/spirit went, for it had to go somewhere for it to "come again"

Luke 8:53-55 (Jesus raises a dead girl)
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. (KJV)
​

Answer: When she died, It (her soul/spirit) went immediately back to God who gave it, Jesus called her back to life and God sent her soul/spirit back, thus she resurrected into her mortal body (she would still go on to die someday). When Jesus resurrected her, He resurrected her into an (her) mortal body.
We, when we die, also will be resurrected, but into immortality, into an (our) immortal body (in Heaven) if we overcome, by and through Christ Jesus. Jesus was teaching here, what Jesus did for this young girl was a 'type' of what He shall do for all true overcoming believers, but that resurrection will be a resurrection into immortal 'bodies' (not susceptible to death). Anyway, no Rapture yet, right!
1Thes 4:13-18 (Cont.)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord#1 shall not prevent them which are asleep#2.

Explanation of above: #1 we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord: = Paul is saying that in the end of times, at the Second Advent, there will be people on the earth who are still alive, they have not yet died, which makes sense. #2 not prevent them which are asleep: = Those that are alive at Christ's return shall not prevent (precede) those who have died in the past in being with the Lord . The reason for that is that the dead are already with the Lord since the very moment of their flesh death. Therefore, those who are 'changed' {1st Cor 15:52} into their spiritual body at the coming of Christ cannot have been with Him before those who are already with Him from the time of their death. NOTE: At the moment of Christ's return, we shall all be in spiritual bodies and the flesh will be discarded {1st Cor 15:52}. But anyway, in the above verse Paul is telling us that to be absent from the flesh, is to be present with the Lord:

2 Cor 5:6-9
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (KJV)
​

See also the parable of Lazarus and Rich man to learn where we go when we die {Luke 16:19-31}. And if you study the Apocrypha, you will find something on this in {2nd Esdras 7:78} (but you will need a The Apocrypha (Goodspeed) by Goodspeed because other Apocrypha's cut this chapter short). (As always, use caution when studying non-Canonized scriptural type books).
​

16 For#1 the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God#2: and#3 the dead in Christ shall rise#4 first#5:
Explanation of above: #1 For: = Because. #2the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...: = This is the Second Advent. The "the trump of God" is the seventh trump in which Christ returns {Rev11:15} (1st Cor 15:52 is even more specific in that it states "at the last trump" which is the seventh of seven). #3 and: = The word is "and," not "first" or "then," or "next." This is simply showing a change in the flesh body transforming into a spirit body, but it is not an immediate preceding of the event of the next verse. #5 first: = Shall have risen first, it already happened at the instant of their death, that is why none who are alive and remain could prevent them (precede them). A definition: first: Greek word #4412 proton (pro'-ton); neuter of 4413 as adverb (with or without 3588); firstly (in time, place, order, or importance): KJV-- before, at the beginning, chiefly (at, at the) first (of all). #4 rise: = Ok, now here we have that 'giddy factor' with the Rapturists. Anything they see written about "rise," "clouds," "lift...," makes them think "Rapture." But this use of the word "rise' here is not "levitate." Let's look at the definition of the word and then we will look at a couple verses where the word is used in other Scriptures. Then you judge if this is talking about "rising in a Rapture up into the clouds." A definition: rise: Greek word #450 anistemi (an-is'-tay-mee); from 303 and 2476; to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive): KJV-- arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).
And below are some other Scriptures where the Greek word [anistemi] (translated "rise" in our above Scripture) is used. Bear in mind that it often took more than one English word to translate a Greek word in the Bible:

Mark 9:31
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise [anistemi] the third day. (KJV)

Luke 8:55
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose [anistemi] straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. (KJV) [You will remember that we just studied this verse a few paragraphs back]

Acts 14:10
10 Said with a loud voice, Stand [anistemi] upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. (KJV)




Note: I differ with Nick only in the use of the word "rapture". I believe there IS a rapture/gathering/harvest of wheat to Jesus Christ after the tribulation like Jesus teaches in matt 24:29-31,mk 13,lk 21. Jesus warns believers prior to His post trib rapture , false Christs shall come claiming to be Him and deceive many matt 24:4-5,mk 13:5-6,luke 21:8, mk 13:19-28,lk 21:19-29,mt 24

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[Watchmen for Christ]

Ok, no Rapture here right! Below is the last verse in our Scripture, and it their main Rapture verse in the whole Bible. But as we shall see it is simply finishing the chronology and the teaching of the preceding verses about all people, living and dead at the time of Christ's Second Advent, going into a spiritual body. The dead did it at the moment of their individual deaths and those who remain alive at the time of the Second Advent will do it at that moment.
So you see that the old saying: "the only things you have to do is die and pay taxes," is incorrect, for when Jesus returns at the Second Advent, all who are alive will be 'translated' (changed/transfigured) into their spiritual bodies without actually experiencing a flesh death. This was witnessed at the 'Mount of the transfiguration" by John, Peter, and James when Jesus was transfigured into a spiritual body and was met by Moses and Elijah in their spiritual bodies {Mt 17:1-9}. In Heaven we are in spiritual bodies, not sickly corruptible flesh ones. But you still gotta pay taxes.
17 Then#1 we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them#2 in the clouds#3, to meet the Lord in the air#4:

Explanation of above: #1Then: = When?? - At the seventh trump! {Rev 11:15} - at the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. #2 with them: = Who?? - Those who are already in their spirit bodies - Those who died in the flesh from the beginning of time, who went instantly went back to the Father at the time of their individual deaths. So far so good, now the interpretation of the next two words ('clouds' and 'air') are the 'foundation' [built on sand] of their Rapture doctrines. A whole doctrine built up around two words taken out of context! #3 clouds: = The Rapturist believes this 'clouds' to be like 'rain clouds.' Language lexicons are of little help with this word as it ultimately has two different meanings:

clouds: Greek word #3507 nephele (nef-el'-ay); from #3509; properly, cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud.
Cloud: #3509 nephos- a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng; a).used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapor obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapor with some form or shape; b). a cloud in the sky
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Above we see that the word can mean either a 'cloud in the sky' or a dense multitude or throng (of people). As I said, the Lexicons are not specific enough here for us to 'hang our hat on,' so to speak. However, there is another resource available to us to secure the proper meaning of the word 'cloud' as it is used here, and that is Scripture itself. We shall let the Bible translate itself. The word "Cloud" #3509 'nephos' whence comes our word 'clouds' is used in only one place in the entire Bible, this will remove any ambiguity with the word usage.
Apostle Paul wrote our Scripture here in 1st Thessalonians, he also wrote the book of Hebrews. It is in the book of Hebrews that Paul used the word "cloud #3509." Paul was a Hebrew from the Tribe of Benjamin, but he also spoke Greek and was a naturalized Roman citizen. However, the Greek he spoke was colloquial Greek (or 'street Greek' as Pastor Arnold (A fine Christian Minister) of the (another Ministry on TV) terms it). This word 'clouds', as it is used here by Paul is a figure of speech, meaning a large group, used also by Paul in {Heb12:1},supplied below for your comparison:

Heb 12:1(Paul's use of the word 'cloud' as a figure of speech)
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (KJV)
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Like I said, Paul was using a colloquialism (figure of speech). Paul no more meant that those would meet Jesus in a 'rain cloud' than he meant that the people above would stage a foot-race on a 'rain-cloud.' The use of the word 'cloud' or 'clouds' in these two Scriptures means a crowd, a great multitude, a vast collection, or dense for multitude of people, as in a "cloud of locusts," or, a "cloud of mosquitoes."
Also, when Jesus Christ returns at his second Advent he will be accompanied by an innumerable host of Angels {Rev 19:11-16}. Below, that innumerable host of Angels is referred to as 'clouds.' Jesus isn't coming on or in water clouds, He is coming with clouds of Angels, so many that they will cloud the sky and can not be counted for their multitude:

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)
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Ok, now our last word in this Scripture: #4 air: = I don't even have to tell you how the Rapturist interprets this word. But the word doesn't mean 'air' like in the sky (for you even have 'air' in your basement). But rather it is the spirit of life air, the pneuma, as in a pneumatic tire (whence we get the word pneumatic). It is the animation of the body, the life, the spirit. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament this word finds it's equivalent in 'neshamah,' which is what God blew into Adam's nostrils and he became a living being. The word means "the breath of life." Below we shall provide definitions in both Greek and Hebrew of this "breath of life" or "spirit":

Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)
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This is what God did into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:

breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).
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Observe below:

Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)
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After Paul wrote this (the first book of Thessalonians) he began receiving reports from Thessalonica that this Scripture was being misinterpreted. Paul hastily, in a scant couple months, wrote the second letter (book) to the Thessalonians, we know this as {2nd Thessalonians}. In the second chapter of that second letter, Paul cleared up all traces of confusion regarding the Scripture we just studied (regarding the Rapture misinterpretation). We shall briefly study that second explanatory letter (2nd Thessalonians). But first, why don't we re-read those five verses that caused all the confusion in Thessalonica then, and in the Rapture churches today, bearing in mind what we just covered. Then we shall let Paul clear away all remaining confusion in the matter.
1Thes 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV)




again thanks to Nick @ biblestudysite.com