pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

[Watchmen for Christ]

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-5:
We shall be brief in this Scripture, I promise. Like I said earlier, it is easier to prove a positive than a negative. We will just document that Paul did in fact have to correct the Thessalonians (and our modern day Rapturists) as to the true meaning of the Scripture in {1st Thessalonians 4:13-17}.

II Th 2:1-5
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Explanation of above: Paul is telling them (and us) that he wishes to speak about the Second Advent and our return to the Lord at that time.
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2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us#1, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Explanation of above: Paul is saying that they shouldn't be confused by any means, into thinking the the Second Advent was near. #1 nor by letter as from us = That letter was 1st Thessalonians. Paul realized that he had confused them in the prior letter (the first) to the Thessalonians (that which we just covered).
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3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (KJV)

Explanation of above: Paul is saying that the Second Advent shall not come until those things happen. There is no Rapture written by Paul, back in his day the people of Thessalonica mistook that Paul was saying that the time was at hand for the Second Advent, but it was not. The Rapturist today is confused that the Scripture was about some kind of Rapture, but it is not. It was simply about what happens to the dead, and how that through Christ they can have eternal life. Those things above that Paul said would precede the day of the Lord (Second Advent) have not yet happened even in our times, but they are prophesied to happen in our generation. From the last above statement by Paul, i.e., "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" it is clear that he had spoken to them about this but did not write it in the first letter to the Thessalonians, he includes it here in the 2nd.
In the above Scriptures, satan is "that man of sin" and"the son of perdition". Some will try to tell you that Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Christ, is the son of perdition. This is untrue and to document: In verse {4} above we see: "the son of perdition" who: "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." Judas Iscariot never did that, Judas never said that he was God.
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In fact after Judas realized that they were really going to crucify Jesus, and that Jesus was going to let it happen, not even opening His mouth in defense; Judas threw the money that he was paid to betray Jesus down onto the temple floor. This was an act of repentance. The 'son of perdition' means: The one who perishes. I know it's easy to jump on the bandwagon with all the self righteous Hypocrites that say Judas is going to hell for betraying Jesus. But through Christ, isn't salvation open to all upon repentance? Jesus said it was, even to those who died before Christ had paid the price on the cross, for after Christ was crucified and before He appeared back on earth resurrected, Jesus went to the lost souls in prison (hell) and offered them forgiveness and salvation. {1st Pet 3:18+19}, {Eph 4:8-10}, and {Rev 20:7} (for documentation on what 'prison' means).
There is only one soul that is condemned (by name) to eternal perishment, and that is satan, the 'son of perdition' by one name, and the 'antichrist' by another. Satan has many names and roles & duties, but he's the same one entity. Below we see God condemning satan to be consumed from within by fire, perish in the Lake of Fire (hence, 'the son of perdition'). At this time satan is the only one by name who has been judged to death in the lake of fire, there are also the fallen angels, and many more people who will follow him after the Great Judgment Day.

Ezek 28:13-19 (God condemning satan)13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (KJV)
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Satan revolted in the first earth age*, chronologically transpiring between {Genesis 1:1 and 1:2}, and led one third of God's children to fight against God and His Angels {Rev 12:3+4}. God of course won, and promptly destroyed that first earth age. This destruction is written of in {2nd Pet 3:5-7} and for an even more clear view do a study in {Jer 4:23-27}. This destruction by water should not be confused with Noah's flood (notice in {Jer 4:25} it reads: "there was no man"). We know that Noah and his family survived Noah's flood.

* If you don't understand about the three earth ages, see the In-depth Bible Study: WHEN WAS THEE BEGINNING?.
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This is speaking of a flood prior to the flood of Noah which caused complete destruction of everything and everyone. It was the wrath of God brought about because one third of His beloved children whom He had created to keep Him company, betrayed and turned their back on Him and joined satan in an takeover attempt. I wonder how many will join satan the next time he tries a takeover, when he stands in Jerusalem in our very near future claiming to be the Messiah, claiming to be the Christ! This time, those who do so will be blotted out, perishing just like satan, who has already been sentenced to the eternal death, the death of a soul in the Lake of Fire (commonly referred to as Hell). God also promises to win the next and final battle between good and evil, He even gives us a play-by-play in the book of Revelation in {Rev 20:9-10}.
But anyway, there is no Rapture doctrine in the books of 1st &2nd Thessalonians, nor anywhere else in the Bible! Jesus is coming back here to us, we aren't going to Him. See {Acts1:6-12}.

Some 'foundational' Rapture teachings rebutted with Holy Scripture:​

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

To be assured of a more perfect comprehension of a Scripture or verse even in God's Word; We must study the words written in a verse in context with the subject and object, and, with other verses before and after the target verse; We must observe who and/or what is being spoken of, to, and/or about; What the time frame is - past, present, or future; Is it prophecy; Is the speech figurative, an idiom, or is it to be taken literally; Are there parallel Scriptures elsewhere in the Bible that collaborate our interpretation of this one.... This must be done with all Scripture, for often the Bible ' puts away' one topic and ' picks up' another with little or no warning. Another invaluable help to understanding a verse in question is to take the main word, the word wherein the verse seems to hinge upon, and look up that Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic word up in your Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. Along with giving the translation definition of the original word in it's original language, the Strong's also has a Concordance that shows you every single verse in the King James Bible (numbered to the King James Bible version only) that that word appears in. And by reading several (or all) of the verses that employ that same Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic word (often translated into several different English words in your Bible) you will be able to get 'a feel' for the weight and meaning of the word. Then apply that to the verse in question and you should be rewarded with greater clarity.
Below we have taken some views from Rapture teachers themselves regarding why the rapture must take place and have presented them to our readers. This is actually dialog between believers of different kinds of Raptures, i.e., pre- tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation, partial-tribulation, two stage-tribulation. As we stated earlier, they can't even make their minds up when their supposed rapture is going to take place, we, as stated, maintain that there is no such idea of any Rapturing in the Holy Bible.
The particular author (Rapture Doctor) cited below is obviously of the 'pre-tribulation' persuasion, which is by far the most common rapture theory around today, thus it will be helpful in our study. But we shall rebut them all with Scripture, Pre-trib, Mid-trib, Post-trib, Partial-trib...for there is not going to be ANY rapture of ANYBODY at ANY time! Let's listen in to their babble (confusion, the root of Babylon) and bear in mind what the Scripture saith: "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" {1 Cor 14:33}. And if God didn't author their Rapture theory then whom would you suppose is responsible for it? Hint, God only has one enemy, that is to say satan.

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Rapture Statements Remedied with Scripture​

The Rapture doctors say:

'He That is Taken Out of the Way (2 Thes. 2:7)'
"Before the Antichrist can be revealed, Paul said a certain, "he" must be taken out of the way. The "he" that must be removed, according to 2 Thes. 2:7, is widely thought to be the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has been promised to never leave the Church, and without the working of the Holy Spirit remaining on earth, no one could be saved during the tribulation. The removal of the Church, which is indwelt by the Holy Ghost, would seem the best explanation for this dilemma. The working of the Holy Spirit could go on during the tribulation, but His influence would be diminished because of the missing Church."
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But the Bible says:
Monumental misinterpretation of {2nd Thessalonians} is the cause for this error. It is not the Holy Spirit that is removed, but rather it is satan who is cast to the earth. Let's do an expository view on {2nd Thess 2:7-10} and allow the Scripture itself to remove the difficulty:

II Th 2:7-10
7 For the mystery*1 of iniquity*2 doth already work*3: only he*4 who now letteth*5 will let*6, until he*7 be taken out of the way*8.

Explanation of above:8*1mystery = Greek word #3466 musterion (moos-tay'-ree-on); from a derivative of mueo (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites). And don't let the word 'religion' fool you, for this is reminiscent of the pagan Babylonian and Egyptian mystery school false religions that God so abhorred. (see The Companion Bible, appendix 193) *2iniquity = Lawlessness. *3work = Work actively, as in {1st Thess 2:13}. *4he = Archangel Michael, the one holding satan at this present time, see {Rev 12:7-9}. *5letteth = Holds fast. *6will let = release. *7he = satan the antichrist, the one being spoken of from the prior verses "...that man of sin be revealled, the son of perdition" {verse 3 of this same 2nd Thess chpt. 2}. *8be taken out of the way = Cast out of Heaven.
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II Th 2:7-10 (Cont.)
8 And then shall that Wicked*1 be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume*2 with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his*3 coming:
9 Even him*4, whose coming is after*5 the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders*6,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they*7 received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (KJV)

Explanation of above: *1that Wicked = That wicked one. *2consume = destroy. *3his = Jesus Christ's, at His Second Advent. *4him = Antichrist, satan. *5after = In like manner, is. *6all power and signs and lying wonders8 = Satan's power to deceive by the miracles that God allows him to do in {Rev 13:13-14}. *7they = Those who follow the false christ antichrist, albeit many will do so in ignorance. God has a future plan for the deceived who unwittingly follow the false messiah.
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We may therefore explain the Scripture of {2nd Thess 2:7-10} thusly:

"Satan's sinful plot has been already planned and started from long ago, and it is only when Archangel Michael releases satan, whom he now holds {Rev 12:7-9}, that satan will be cast out of Heaven to the earth. It is then that satan shall fulfill his role as the antichrist, that same antichrist that Jesus Christ will defeat at His (Jesus') Second Advent. This antichrist, whom is satan, who will seat himself on a false earthly throne by performing real and apparent miracles and wondrous signs. Those people who follow him and his lie shall perish, because, in worshipping him they had rejected the truth which would have saved them, i.e., the true Jesus Christ."
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Where, I ask the reader, is any Rapture here?!? There is no Rapture in 2nd Thessalonians 2:7-10; There is no Rapture in the Bible!

Jer 5:30-31
30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? (KJV)
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" For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" {1 Cor 14:33}​

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

The Rapture doctors say:

'The Five Foolish Virgins'
"The wedding story that Jesus gave in Mat 25:2-13, I believe, relates a parable of the Rapture of the Church and how some will not be ready. Jesus clearly states that a group of people will miss out on some event, and will cry out to God to let them into the place where He resides (heaven). Although some try to put this parable in a post-trib context, it doesn't fit very well. The ones left behind in a post-trib Rapture will not need to seek the lord because they'll immediately be confronted by him and his army of angels."
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But the Bible says:
Once again the Rapture doctors do violence to the Scripture. Below we will examine the Parable of the ten Virgins and allow Scripture itself to clarify. We will notice that the Rapture doctor has it exactly turned around backwards. he states: "Jesus clearly states that a group of people will miss out on some event," referring to the Rapture of course, but those whom he says 'miss out on an event' actually partake of an event that shouldn't have, they are those who participate with the first christ which is the false christ antichrist. You notice in {verse 10} that the 5 foolish virgins, Rapture believing Christians (among other of the deceived), go somewhere to get more oil (the oil is the Word of God), but they go to the wrong place for a 'refill' when they should have had it all along like the 5 wise virgins, and while they are chasing antichrist for the false oil (the false word), the true Christ (the bridegroom) returns for His Second Advent, thus the five foolish virgins miss out and fall short immediately prior to the Second Advent of Christ Jesus. They were good Christians, for they are referred to as spiritual virgins un-beguiled by satan's lies, but they fall short right at the very end - sad!:

Matt 25:10
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. (KJV)
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Then, after Christ returns at His Second Advent and casts satan the antichrist into the pit and glorifies His true Church, the un-beguiled body of believers) we see the Rapturist's come a knocking. They have by this time realized that they have been had by satan and his false doctrines. But we see Christ close the door on them and tell them a very solemn thing:

Matt 25:11-12
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. (KJV)
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This is where false doctrine shall you my friend. Thank God (for their sakes) that there is the Millennium teaching time {Rev 20:4-6} BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgment Day {Rev 20:11-15}, for those who did not have a fair chance at the truth.
Verse {13} should nail home the point that the 'marriage' is speaking of the return of Christ at His Second Advent, not some imaginary Rapture:

Matt 25:13
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (KJV)
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Every time the phase "ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" is used, it refers to the Second Advent of Christ. See: {Lk 12:40, Mt 24:42, 44, 1st Thess 5:2 & 5:6, Lk 18:8...}

Where, I ask the reader, is any Rapture here?!? There is no Rapture in the Parable of the Ten Virgins; There is no Rapture in the Bible!

Jer 5:30-31
30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? (KJV)
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" For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" {1 Cor 14:33}​

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

The Rapture doctors say:

'God Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath'
"In 1 Thessalonians 5:9 Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. The wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the tribulation. Pre-trib believers cite this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning God will protect Christians during the tribulation, and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the statement made in Rev 13:7 where the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God's promise of protection from wrath into a lie. In years past, it was possible to think of protection from guns and swords. Today when any major war would involve nuclear and chemical weapons, it's not possible to expect protection from these types of weaponry. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during W.W.II, the bomb exploded over a Catholic church. Everyone that was in the center of the explosion died, both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God's promise of protection from wrath, is the bodily removal of the Church from this world."
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But the Bible says:
Here we have a rather confused set of inaccurate assumptions unnaturally placed together. To begin with, it is more than a little presumptuous for the Rapturist to refer to himself as a Saint of God as he does in the above.
He refers to the Saints in {Rev 13:7} as the good Rapturist saints who are the Church on earth now. But the Saints that satan shall kill in {Rev 13:7} are the Two Witnesses of God, the same Two Witnesses that satan kills in {Rev 11:7}, and the only two people that it is written of that satan personally physically kills in the entire Bible! Satan will however spiritually kill many with his lies and false doctrines:

Rev 11:3-7
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. (KJV)
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Contrary to popular misconception, satan and his evil angels are not allowed to run around rough-shod over the earth killing people (thank God!). They are supernatural spiritual beings in bodily form coming against mere mortal man. They are powerful, But God is more powerful and is always in control so that these must abide by the unbreakable rules and laws of Almighty God. In other words, there are things that they are not permitted to do; one of those things that they are not allowed to do is to kill men:

Job 2:4-6
4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. (KJV)

Rev 9:5-6
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. (KJV)

Ps 105:14-15 (see also1st Chr 16:22 )
14 He [God] suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes;
15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm. (KJV)
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Another remarkable statement is made in the above Rapture position, the author states: "In 1 Thessalonians 5:9 Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. The wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the tribulation." Wrong again! The wrath spoken of here is not the Great Tribulation, but rather it is the eternal damnation in Hell which we can escape only through Christ Jesus. The rapture teachers must realize that they cannot simply take half-a-verse here and some of a verse there and come to an accurate conclusion. Below we shall do what our rapture teacher quite obviously didn't do, we will examine the Scripture supplied in context with the words before and after their 'sound-bite' of Scripture:

1Thes 5:8-10
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. (KJV)
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In verse {8} above, it is speaking of the Gospel Armour from {Eph 6:13}, and this Gospel Armour is to be used by the Christian to withstand the Great Tribulation by antichrist: "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand." {Eph 6:13}. That reads STAND, not fly away in some Rapture cloud before hand! Once again, you have got to kind of wonder if they spread their false doctrines and confusion purely by accident. We judge no man. Enough said on that.
The Rapture doctors teach that when Jesus Christ returns at his Second Advent that that is the Great Tribulation. Wrong again, the Second Advent is the termination of the Great Tribulation (testing) and the casting of antichrist into the pit. And when Christ does return, He is not going to hurt the faithful, only those who have thrown their lot in with the false christ antichrist. All throughout Scripture, God has destroyed the wicked but saved the faithful, i.e., Noah from the flood, Lot from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the first-born of Israel from the destruction of the first-born of Egyptians.... God didn't rapture Noah, He put him on a boat ON THE EARTH; God didn't rapture Lot, He had him to walk out of town, on foot, ON THE EARTH; God did not rapture the first-born of Israel, He had the death angel pass over them untouched ON THE EARTH.
And finally, let us reflect on the foolish statement that concludes the above Rapture doctor's theory. He stated:

"A post-trib view would make God's promise of protection from wrath into a lie. In years past, it was possible to think of protection from guns and swords. Today when any major war would involve nuclear and chemical weapons, it's not possible to expect protection from these types of weaponry. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during W.W.II, the bomb exploded over a Catholic church. Everyone that was in the center of the explosion died, both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God's promise of protection from wrath, is the bodily removal of the Church from this world."
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When God does destroy this age it will not be with man's primitive (to God) 21st century weaponry, it will be with the simple yet powerful nature. Just as when God destroyed the first earth age, He did so with water {2nd Pet 3:1-6 & Jer 4:23-27}. And Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed with fire, those killed in Noah's time were killed with a flood of water, and the killing of the first-born of the Egyptians was with sudden death. The destruction of our earth age (the 2nd) shall be with fire, earthquakes, hailstones...not Nuclear/Biological/Laser weapons. God is so very natural, He wants us to understand that which He does, He is not out to confuse His children but rather to teach them. He does things in a simple to understand natural way.
Why limit God to man's devises? And why suppose that the end shall come with war? Does not the Scripture even say: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet" {Mark 13:7}. and again: "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape" {1Thes 5:3} and once more: "Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter" {Ezek 13:10}. They think that the end comes in war, but it does not, the end comes in peace, the false peace that antichrist brings which is really no peace at all but rather a deception of peace. In their assumption they do greatly err.
Where, I ask the reader, is any Rapture here?!? There is no Rapture before the wrath of God, and besides, the wrath is not directed at the faithful, nor will it harm them in any way. You remember the three Hebrew children in the furnace? They were in the midst of the fire, heated up to seven times normal heat, and they were not harmed in any way, their clothes didn't even smell like smoke - God is able to protect His own even though there is destruction all around - have faith! God has not appointed you to wrath, but the wrath of God shall be unleashed. There is no Rapture in the Bible!

Jer 5:30-31
30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? (KJV)
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" For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" {1 Cor 14:33}​

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

The Rapture doctors say:

'The Church Would Rebuke the Antichrist'
"If the Antichrist came to power with the Church still here, I do not see how he could operate. When Hitler was fighting to take over England, a number of Christians where praying for victory. Hitler made mistake after mistake, and England out performed its enemy at every stage of the conflict. It is difficult to measure the actual impact of intercessory prayer in physical warfare. Little is known of how great a role praying saints played in the defeat of Nazi Germany. If the Church were to reside on earth during the tribulation, I am sure she would give the Antichrist fits. In Rev 11:3, the two witnesses give the Antichrist enough headaches alone. Millions of Christians, who know their Bible well, would recognize the man of sin and pray fire down on his head. The post-trib view would have to plan on the Church just rolling over and playing dead, the whole seven years."
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But the Bible says:
Once again, our Rapture doctor unwittingly waxes prophetic with his unfathomable (to him) ponderings. Sadly, this is where deception and false teaching shall lead the Church. It is written that the whole world, save the Elect, shall wonder after the beast antichrist. the present day 'church' is so very far from being the Elect; the present day church is in fact molding and blending into the harlot church of {Rev 17:1-6} "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH". We all know that this is talking about the great enemy of Christ in the end days, but let's look at some of her title in the original Greek to get a better understanding of just who 'she' is:
MYSTERY: Greek word #3466 musterion (moos-tay'-ree-on); from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):

HARLOTS: Greek word #4204 porne (por'-nay); feminine of 4205; a strumpet; figuratively, an idolater:

ABOMINATIONS: Greek word #946 bdelugma (bdel'-oog-mah);from 948; a detestation, i.e. (specially) idolatry:

These are all speaking of the false one-world religion of the end-time generation, our generation. We see this coming together, what with all the talk of 'respecting every religion as equal.' Soon, and even now, all the religions (Christianity and heathen) shall unite on the common ground of tolerance, love, good deeds, and mutual respect. Christians will apostate from true Christianity and become as the others whom will also lose any convictions they may have. But as Christians we are especially accountable, for it is our Savior Jesus Christ who said: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." {John 14:6}. But the end-time Christian will allow satan to steal that from them, all in the spirit of ecumenism (harmony of different religious beliefs). Sad!

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (KJV)
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The Elect are the end-time church written of in the book of Revelation, and there aren't all that many of them. But the Elect have no right to glory in themselves, for it if it were not for the grace of God even the Very Elect would be deceived into worshipping the false christ antichrist:

Matt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (KJV)

Mark 13:20
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. (KJV)
​

May we sadly muse with Christ:

Luke 18:7-9 (Jesus speaking)7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others (KJV)
​

Where, I ask the reader, is any Rapture here?!? There is no Rapture anywhere in the Bible!

(End of excerpts from the Rapture Doctors)​

Jer 5:30-31
30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? (KJV)




Again the post trib rapture can be found in scripture: matt 24:29-31 the gathering together of the Lord's wheat after the purging of tares

​

 

[Randy]

A mighty battle which they will lose.

I'm generally in agreement with what you posted. But this battle in the valley, doesn't it not really take place? The Lord wipes them out. (Not really a battle!).

In Matthew 24:21 Jesus is responding to four Disciples in a private briefing about His 2nd Coming. Matthew 24:21-22 Jesus is in effect quoting from Daniel 12:1. He is labeling this period as the Great Tribulation, he gives it that very label. Another label for this time is The Time of Jacobs Trouble Jeremiah 30:7. From that event, to the end of the 7 year period, is the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is actually 3-1/2 years and not 7. The last half of the 70th week of Daniel. Technically, Jesus defined the Great Tribulation as the last half of the week. The end of the 70th week of Daniel concludes the Great Tribulation and then the Millennium begins.

Plus, in Revelation when John is there having his vision and is in heaven (Revelation 4), the 24 Elders are there, correct? Who are the Elders? (I think it is the church?)...this is before the Lamb opens the scroll (chapter6?) and begins to pour out God wrath on the earth, right, still with me? (Correct me if I'm wrong!)...The church is already there! How can the church be in heaven, if they are to go through the great tribulation?

Who the elders are wasn't given to the church.

Rev 11 Those two witness testify for 1260 days. Its clear to me thats the last and final warning/testimony before God allows the beast to be released to deceive the whole world. If anyone has any shred of faith in those days they will give glory to God. Rev 11:13 The start of the great tribulation. The beasts reign is 42 months. I believe there will be christians in the world at the 2nd coming. Rev 16:15

During the beasts reign God will give help to the believers in Jerusalem as by Gods will the Mount of Olives will be split in two to make a way of escape from the beasts armies. Zech 14:4-5 keep in mind the beasts reign is 42 months. I believe those fleeing into the desert are those mentioned in Rev 12:6. I also see other believers in the world being tracked down by the enemies of God. Rev 12:17

The last day by evening there will be light. Zech 14:6-7

 

[Randy]

* 1st taken are tares mt 13:30

I think those caught up are Christians and those christians are given new bodies. Those left behind are unbelievers and have bodies made of the dust of the earth. The outcome is stated together for all such as in Daniel 12. While I believe judgment is pronounced against them (2nd coming - non-christians) ,which can't be changed, they are not lined up and executed at that time. After the 1000 years comes that judgment. The powers of evil in the heavenly realm's will be released again from the abyss after the 1000 years and they, with those that they deceived, will try to change the judgments against them. Gog and Magog. A mighty battle which they will lose. Rev gives more focus on the timeline of the 1st and 2nd resurrection and I am premil because of such teaching.

Hey Randy,
As you know paul tells us what type of bodies they will be in I cor 15:40-45 (spiritual bodies/aer/ breaths/spirits) Peter tells us in II pet 3 the heavens and earth shall be on fire at Christ's parousia (the change paul talks of)

the powers of the pit are released by satan when he falls as a star, his role/office as antiChrist (along with his angels) are destroyed by the brightness of Jesus' parousia (after the trib mt 24:29-31) satan himself is bound 1000yrs and released to test one last and final time before being devoured by fire rev 20.


tares (satan's children mt 13) are taken first (mt 13:30) by the false Christs claiming to be Jesus (falling away) matt 24:21-28,mk 19-28,lk 21,rev 12-14,dan 11)

we believers who refuse the false Christs are left behind . we who refuse to defile our wedding garments by worshiping satan,his image or taking his mark.rev 19/20

Jesus told us we'll be betrayed,beaten and delivered to death but not to meditate what we will say for He will give us what to say through the Holy Spirit
mk 13/lk 21


Jesus coming starts the millennium :yes

I believe in a bodily resurrection. I already am spirit housed in the tent of a human body first made from the dust of the earth. One that is subject to accidents, illnesses and in the end death. Our new bodies will be made in the order of Spirit and will never die. A mystery according to Paul. So my spirit that currently occupies my human body will be given a new body at the 1st resurrection at the 2nd coming. Those coming back with the Lord are already clothed with their new bodies and those left alive on earth on that last day are caught up to the Lord and changed in the twinkling of the eye. Clothed with immortality as mortal flesh and blood can't inherit the eternal kingdom God promised on oath to Abraham. Our place will be on the earth with Jesus and Zech 14:6-9 appears to show a one day event. By evening...

 

[Eugene]

It is the church representative of them that are the dead in Christ to rise first. Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

So the church is in heaven before the scrolls opened.

Representative? do you mean like, allegorical?

So the church is in heaven before the scrolls opened.

Representative? do you mean like, allegorical?

I believe when you say scrolls you are referring to Rev 6:1 “And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.†Thus begins the start of things to come after Jesus takes His own throne.

Using the term allegorical is good concerning the number because since they come from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, there by necessity must be more than twenty-four. There are many views as to the numbers told us but I am content just to know they are part of the church present with Christ prior to the end time events to come.

Note that these twenty-four elders are only a part of them singing the song of redemption in Rev 5:9. The second group; the four beasts or Living ones must be representing them which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord according to the order of them rising to be with the Lord told us in 1 Thes 4:15-17.

 

[JLB]

Wow, all those scriptures and all that talk in those articles and I really only see one scripture in them in my notes that have anything to really do with the rapture. (1 Thess 5:9) where we are promised to not have to go through Gods Wrath. It does not say that we will have protection during the tribulation...it says we are not appointed to wrath, which is a pretty clear indication of not having to go through it at all. To interpret it as a protection passage is a mistake to begin with it seems to me.

And there are many clues all throughout the bible which give rise to the notion of two events. (Rapture AND a 2nd coming) in one event, there is a translation of believers, the 2nd, no translation involved. In 1, translated believers go to heaven, the 2nd, believers return to earth! In 1, earth's not judged, the 2nd, earth is judged. In 1, talk that Jesus could come at any moment, in 2, Jesus return follows definite predicted signs. In 1, for believers only, in 2, affects everyone on earth. In 1, he comes for His own, in 2, he comes with His own. In 1, there's no reference to Satan, in 2, Satan is Bound! In 1, He comes in the Air, in 2, he comes to earth! In 1, only His own see him, in 2, every eye will see Him. In 1, He claims His Bride! In 2, He comes WITH His bride. In 1, the Great Trib begins, in 2, the Millenium begins.

It's easy to confuse the 2 events and to lump them into one. But careful reading of the scriptures will reveal distinctions such as I have pointed out.

Yes, God's wrath comes at the end of the tribulation against the ungodly.

The Tribulation is the devil persecuting the Church.

Two different things.

One needs to consider these two distinct things and not lump them into one.


6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10


JLB

 

[Eugene]

I believe when you say scrolls you are referring to Rev 6:1 “And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.†Thus begins the start of things to come after Jesus takes His own throne.

That is exactly what I'm talking about. John is give a vision and is seeing that which will come to pass. No one is worthy to open the scroll except for the Lamb. John's there watching this and as the different seals are opened we see the different plagues and so for forth which will be poured out upon the earth. At this point in scripture, they have not been poured out, so the Great Tribulation has not yet begun, right? Ok. I think that it's important to realize that there is a difference between tribulation, and the Great Tribulation. Jesus Himself gave it the label of Great Tribulation in Matthew 24:21

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Everyone has tribulation in their life, but jesus is clearly making a distinction here of something greater than common tribulation.

Eugene

Using the term allegorical is good concerning the number because since they come from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, there by necessity must be more than twenty-four. There are many views as to the numbers told us but I am content just to know they are part of the church present with Christ prior to the end time events to come.

Personally, I can't agree to an allegorical representation of the 24 elders. This is a vision and no parable or mere speaking where a figurative idiom could be perceived. Nevertheless, allegorical or not, we seem to agree that the elders do represent the church, or the redeemed. The numbers of them may indeed also be irrelevant for purposes of this discussion. The point is that they are the redeemed, and seem to be identified as such. They are wearing crowns. Angels don't wear crowns. Victorious believers do (2 Timothy 4:8 James 1:12).

So if the redeemed are in heaven at this point, and the wrath of God of the Great Tribulation has not been poured out yet...(and there is no Pre-Trib rapture...) What are the redeemed doing in heaven then? They're already there before the Great Tribulation begins. The antichrist hasn't even been revealed yet at this point. BTW, many speak of a 7 year tribulation, but it really is not. It's 3.5 years.

It sounds to me you've got it correct. I will add that I do not believe these two groups; the twenty-four elders of Rev 4:4 and the four living ones of Rev 4:6 constitute the entire body of Christ that will be caught up; there's more during the first three and one half years that will be seen by John arriving in heaven.

My thoughts.

 

[jasoncran]

if the wrath if for the ungodly, then how can the sinners be in the millennium?

jesus compares his return to the flood, how many were saved from the ungodly in the flood? 8 and of them how many ungodly were allowed to board when the waters started to pour in on them? NONE.

that is my biggest problem with the chialistic doctrine of today. any person not saved is ungodly!

 

[Eugene]

if the wrath if for the ungodly, then how can the sinners be in the millennium?

The preaching to the nation’s only begin at that time more than likely with Israel as head of them. Now there will undoubtedly be great conversions since Satan is locked away during that time, but any saved during that time will be because they believe. The death of a child will be one hundred years, and rain will not come to then not going to worship the Lord.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

If all believed in God in the millennium, Satan would have none to go with him to compass the camp of the saints at the end of that time according to Rev 20:8.

jesus compares his return to the flood, how many were saved from the ungodly in the flood? 8 and of them how many ungodly were allowed to board when the waters started to pour in on them? NONE.

1 Pet 3:20 This was a new beginning for mankind represented as a type in baptism; the answer of a good conscience toward God. I would ask if you think only eight will enter the millennium alive, or as the seventh day shows the end of natural man’s beginning, and the eight demonstrate a new beginning.

During the time of tribulation one third of all mankind will die, leaving two thirds presumably to enter the millennium. Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. Different thoughts of the present world’s Christian population is thought to be around thirty-three percent. Do you have scripture showing only the righteous will be on the earth during the millennium? Thanks Jason.

 

[jasoncran]

The preaching to the nation’s only begin at that time more than likely with Israel as head of them. Now there will undoubtedly be great conversions since Satan is locked away during that time, but any saved during that time will be because they believe. The death of a child will be one hundred years, and rain will not come to then not going to worship the Lord.

I know all that can you tell me WHY you as pre mil think that blood of goats, bulls and sheep can ATONE better then the blood of the LAMB that was slain before the foundations of the world?


remember all this is still taught by Judaism today. that isreal would be light unto the gentiles, a church!. didn't jesus say that if you are not for me you are against me?. yet if I show you all that levites must be cleansed of the sin before they can enter to see the Lord. isn't that the mosaic law? yes it is. so then why do believe this pre-mil position?since pauls say the intercession of the man Christ Jesus is better then the Aaronic priesthood.

salvation as we know today isn't offered under the mosaic law. grace was around but it was a shadow. remember that a baby that is a sinner is still accursed. that means he is what? not right with god. that isn't a literal statement but metaphor.

one cant pick the chapter of isiah 64 and not take this part literally too.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

so sin shall be in this new heaven and earth?

And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

that is also isiah 66. the problem here is that this negates what paul says about the levites and also what jesus said about the new way of worship.

In Judaism of then and now, one can worship at home. one need not go to the temple to have praise time with god. if that isn't shown the bible then can you tell me why Samuel's mother thanked god in Samuel 2 for her son and knew to pray when she went to the temple? the temple worship jesus means is the feasts and so forth. that does NOT mean that the jews couldn't worship at home. when the feasts and offerings were done there was much joy. have you ever done or read up Passover? much joy in that, singing and thanking god. that is why its done!yet it has atonement offerings in it.

if 2/3 of men are wiped out why then does jesus spare them. so if you don't hate Christians but aren't one and nor murder them you are shown mercy? really? what about that god says that all those that have theMARK of the beast are cast into the lake of fire. so out of these 1/3 of men how many don't have the mark of the beast and aren't saved? cant be food or live without that mark per that doctrine of yours.

 

[thethinker]

Please don't literalize a book that claims to be symbolic in its prologue.

Hi Brother Thethinker and welcome to CF.net. The word “Signify†also has the synonym of show. Who to you was Jesus’ angel that showed these things to John? Thanks.

It means "to show in signs or symbols."

Quote from Herschell H. Hobbs:

The method employed in the Revelation is seen in the word "signified." This translates the Greek verb semaino, meaning to show in signs or symbols....

It employs symbols to those who read with understanding. But it also CONCEALS the message from those outside the Christian fellowship....

The aorist form of "signified" sums up the whole method of revelation in the book. We cannot say that some things are symbols and some are literal. If one part is literal, all parts are literal. THE VERB FORM SAYS THAT ALL PARTS ARE SYMBOLIC.

The Cosmic Drama pages 24-25
​

Hobbs was both the leader and leading theologian of the Southern Baptist Convention.

 

[jasoncran]

hershell hobbs is amil. ah no wonder I agree with that statement so much. the imagery john sees is from the tanach and so forth

 

[Eugene]

can you tell me WHY you as pre mil think that blood of goats, bulls and sheep can ATONE better then the blood of the LAMB that was slain before the foundations of the world?

I have no idea where I said something to give you that idea because I certainly don't believe that.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
so sin shall be in this new heaven and earth?

I'm not quite sure how or why you jumped from the millennium to eternity that comes after the thousand years where there will be nothing there that defiles. Rev 21:27

that is also isiah 66. the problem here is that this negates what paul says about the levites and also what jesus said about the new way of worship.

Are you referring to worshipping in Spirit and truth told us in John 4:24? If so how do we know what that worship during the millennium will consist of? I can’t imagine that would change.

if 2/3 of men are wiped out why then does jesus spare them. so if you don't hate Christians but aren't one and nor murder them you are shown mercy? really? what about that god says that all those that have theMARK of the beast are cast into the lake of fire. so out of these 1/3 of men how many don't have the mark of the beast and aren't saved? cant be food or live without that mark per that doctrine of yours.

Yeah the mark is to come and according to Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads. This is to occur during the second half of tribulation. When are they that take the mark judged and cast into the lake of fire. I only read of the false prophet and the beast in the lake of fire during the millennium. And then unrighteous mankind are not cast in the lake of fire until after the Great White Throne judgment of 20:11-15.

You referred to Paul and the Levites which I did not understand; please elaborate.

 

[Eugene]

Quote from Herschell H. Hobbs:

The method employed in the Revelation is seen in the word "signified." This translates the Greek verb semaino, meaning to show in signs or symbols....

I would then have to ask what John was shown as he viewed different events occurring in heaven. E.g., were the multitudes he seen before the throne just a sign. That same question would pertain to the 144,000 caught up unto God. Again I ask who Jesus' angel of Rev 1:1 might be that showed John the things he saw if you know; if not I'll just drop that point. Thanks.

 

[Randy]

Hey Randy how are you? The first resurrection has already started:

Matthew 27:50-54

1.started with those who resurrected in flesh AFTER He resurrected in flesh:

I still do not understand why you state this.(The first Resurrection has started) The resurrection on the righteous will be in the last day and we will have new bodies. I think you believe this. It is a one day event yet in the future.

John 11:24 This was the understanding that was taught. Jesus raised Lazarus as a testimony and a sign to all that God was with Him. God did many works in those days as a testimony showing Jesus to be who He claimed to be. The Christ, The Son of the Living God. So that all may believe and go to Jesus for eternal life. As Jesus taught those that listened and learned from the Father go to Him and He will raise them up on the last day. (The First Resurrection)

R.

 

[thethinker]

hershell hobbs is amil. ah no wonder I agree with that statement so much. the imagery john sees is from the tanach and so forth

John saw the judgment occur while Christ was sitting on a cloud. Then he saw Christ judge while riding on a white horse in heaven.

Both statemets CANNOT be true in a literal sense. Only one can be literally true. Christ cannot be literally sitting on a cloud judging and riding on a horse judging at the same time. Literally He is either sitting on a cloud or riding on a horse. But symbolically He may judge both ways. No where is He presented as judging on a throne in Jerusalem.

Many fail to see that the events in the Revelation are REPEATED in seven cycles. Each cycle presents the SAME events with a different vision. These facts bolster Hobb's treatment of the word "semaino" in the prologue. It means "to show with signs or symbols."

 

[Eugene]

No where is He presented as judging on a throne in Jerusalem.

How about the heavenly Jerusalem? Revelation 4:2 “. . a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.â€

If Amillennialism is a fact who are those that reign with Christ a thousand years, and when does it occur? Rev 5:9 “. . And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth.â€