pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

[Sinthesis]

hershell hobbs is amil. ah no wonder I agree with that statement so much. the imagery john sees is from the tanach and so forth

John saw the judgment occur while Christ was sitting on a cloud. Then he saw Christ judge while riding on a white horse in heaven.

Both statemets CANNOT be true in a literal sense. Only one can be literally true. Christ cannot be literally sitting on a cloud judging and riding on a horse judging at the same time. Literally He is either sitting on a cloud or riding on a horse. But symbolically He may judge both ways. No where is He presented as judging on a throne in Jerusalem.

Many fail to see that the events in the Revelation are REPEATED in seven cycles. Each cycle presents the SAME events with a different vision. These facts bolster Hobb's treatment of the word "semaino" in the prologue. It means "to show with signs or symbols."

It's puffy cloud horsey, that's why it is white.3

No, not really. They are both symbolic of Jesus' authority and power.

 

[thethinker]

No where is He presented as judging on a throne in Jerusalem.

How about the heavenly Jerusalem? Revelation 4:2 “. . a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.â€

If Amillennialism is a fact who are those that reign with Christ a thousand years, and when does it occur? Rev 5:9 “. . And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth.â€

I am still talking about the word "signify."

 

[thethinker]

hershell hobbs is amil. ah no wonder I agree with that statement so much. the imagery john sees is from the tanach and so forth

John saw the judgment occur while Christ was sitting on a cloud. Then he saw Christ judge while riding on a white horse in heaven.

Both statemets CANNOT be true in a literal sense. Only one can be literally true. Christ cannot be literally sitting on a cloud judging and riding on a horse judging at the same time. Literally He is either sitting on a cloud or riding on a horse. But symbolically He may judge both ways. No where is He presented as judging on a throne in Jerusalem.

Many fail to see that the events in the Revelation are REPEATED in seven cycles. Each cycle presents the SAME events with a different vision. These facts bolster Hobb's treatment of the word "semaino" in the prologue. It means "to show with signs or symbols."

It's puffy cloud horsey, that's why it is white.3

No, not really. They are both symbolic of Jesus' authority and power.

 

[jasoncran]

paul says we are to judge men and angels and yet the book of revalation says only they that were beheaded reign with Christ. how many thrones does one have in a kingdom?

 

[jasoncran]

I have no idea where I said something to give you that idea because I certainly don't believe that.


I'm not quite sure how or why you jumped from the millennium to eternity that comes after the thousand years where there will be nothing there that defiles. Rev 21:27


Are you referring to worshipping in Spirit and truth told us in John 4:24? If so how do we know what that worship during the millennium will consist of? I can’t imagine that would change.

if 2/3 of men are wiped out why then does jesus spare them. so if you don't hate Christians but aren't one and nor murder them you are shown mercy? really? what about that god says that all those that have theMARK of the beast are cast into the lake of fire. so out of these 1/3 of men how many don't have the mark of the beast and aren't saved? cant be food or live without that mark per that doctrine of yours.

Yeah the mark is to come and according to Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads. This is to occur during the second half of tribulation. When are they that take the mark judged and cast into the lake of fire. I only read of the false prophet and the beast in the lake of fire during the millennium. And then unrighteous mankind are not cast in the lake of fire until after the Great White Throne judgment of 20:11-15.

You referred to Paul and the Levites which I did not understand; please elaborate.

ok so if isreal is a church, and worship is the EXACT same then tell me why Christ must come back to continue a church?

you said that YOU believe in the return of the law when you posted this.

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

how exactly will the feast of tabernacles be kept then? with or without a levite? seethe? that implies the mosaic law?

read up on what the book of Hebrews says about Aaronic priesthood.

on the succot aka feast of tabernacles.

23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
4 These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
9 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord.
13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Lord.
17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the Lord.
18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the Lord, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the Lord.
19 Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
20 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the Lord, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the Lord for the priest.
21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the Lord your God.
23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.
26 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.
28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God.
29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the Lord.
35 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.
37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord.
39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the Lord your God seven days.
41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the Lord seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the Lord.

note verses 18 and verses 20, can you tell why you take this chapter of zechariah 14 literal and then also dont believe the levites aren't the priests?can you show me where god changed the way the feasts were done in the millennium?

 

[thethinker]

paul says we are to judge men and angels and yet the book of revalation says only they that were beheaded reign with Christ. how many thrones does one have in a kingdom?

All thrones in the Revelation are seen IN HEAVEN. They are symbloic for authority. No earttly throne anywhere in the Revelation.

 

[Eugene]

ok so if isreal is a church, and worship is the EXACT same then tell me why Christ must come back to continue a church?

I don’t think Israel is the church, though I believe any of Israel who have received Christ as their Savior are just as Paul was. In the church there is neither Jew nor Greek.

God is through dealing with the church on earth after Rev 3:15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Laodicea representative of Opie gone bad among them alive when Christ comes are completely diverse from Philadelphia that will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the earth, and have a crown. Laodicea is counseled in Rev 3:21, To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. That reward which Philadelphia possesses Laodicea can have.

According to Rev 7:7 “. . Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand and they will be in heaven. Rev 14:1. In heaven reigning with Christ, and I reckon if a Levite is needed Jesus has them at His beckoning. Again I have no idea the extent worship will take during the millennium. I doubt killing Jesus in type by slaying a lamb will enter into it.

can you show me where god changed the way the feasts were done in the millennium?

No I can't.

 

[jasoncran]

ok, so isreal isn't the church? and yet what is exactly a jewish Christian to you? I mean you do realize that problem of yours is really what is a jewish believer.i can go even into more depth on a levite and the priests and chapters of Ezekiel. those 144,000 male Hebrews were likely sealed in ad 70. no jew today can reconcile his tribe. all oral and written records are lost. you have to ask yourself these:

1) if galatians is true then why would God today declare whom is a levite, and any tribe for the simply use of winning souls? remember isrealites were NOT to stay in isreal they were to be missionaries. its in the book of deuteromony chapter 4.
2)only a male levite not of the accursed levites could be the priest that enters into the Holy Of HOLIES. a son of ZADOK. no women priests, no women rabbis.
3) a levite must be cleansed by the blood of a goat to be holy and to be able to enter the inner chamber.
4) what of the verses that says the YHWH enters the temple in Ezekiel from the east.? it also mentions a prince atoning for the sins of the nation.

 

[thethinker]

those 144,000 male Hebrews were likely sealed in ad 70. no jew today can reconcile his tribe.

The 144,000 are explicitly identified as "a great multitude which no man could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues."

Note the apocalyptic pattern:

John is told he is about to see the Lion of the tribe of Judah. But when he looks he sees the Lamb that had been slain (5:5-6).

John is told he is about to see the the Bride, the Lamb's Wife. But when he looks he see the New Jerusalem (21:9-11).

Likewise, John is told he is about to see the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. But when he looks he sees "a great multitude which no man can number of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues."

 

[jasoncran]

ok, its lists these. its says that 12,000 from each tribe.

7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands

note verse 9 with the word AFTER!

two different groups as john was told. a gentile has no tribe with the sons of Jacob in any gentile nation.

 

[Randy]

ok, so isreal isn't the church? and yet what is exactly a jewish Christian to you? I mean you do realize that problem of yours is really what is a jewish believer.i can go even into more depth on a levite and the priests and chapters of Ezekiel. those 144,000 male Hebrews were likely sealed in ad 70. no jew today can reconcile his tribe. all oral and written records are lost. you have to ask yourself these:

1) if galatians is true then why would God today declare whom is a levite, and any tribe for the simply use of winning souls? remember isrealites were NOT to stay in isreal they were to be missionaries. its in the book of deuteromony chapter 4.
2)only a male levite not of the accursed levites could be the priest that enters into the Holy Of HOLIES. a son of ZADOK. no women priests, no women rabbis.
3) a levite must be cleansed by the blood of a goat to be holy and to be able to enter the inner chamber.
4) what of the verses that says the YHWH enters the temple in Ezekiel from the east.? it also mentions a prince atoning for the sins of the nation.

I don't think God has a problem identifying the 144,000 as He is doing the sealing. However I would think that if it is a future event and if the descendants of the 1st believers (children of abraham) remained in the faith they are hidden under the name "christian". God only has one family under a new covenant in Christ.

 

[thethinker]

God only has one family under a new covenant in Christ.

Amen!

 

[jasoncran]

ok, so isreal isn't the church? and yet what is exactly a jewish Christian to you? I mean you do realize that problem of yours is really what is a jewish believer.i can go even into more depth on a levite and the priests and chapters of Ezekiel. those 144,000 male Hebrews were likely sealed in ad 70. no jew today can reconcile his tribe. all oral and written records are lost. you have to ask yourself these:

1) if galatians is true then why would God today declare whom is a levite, and any tribe for the simply use of winning souls? remember isrealites were NOT to stay in isreal they were to be missionaries. its in the book of deuteromony chapter 4.
2)only a male levite not of the accursed levites could be the priest that enters into the Holy Of HOLIES. a son of ZADOK. no women priests, no women rabbis.
3) a levite must be cleansed by the blood of a goat to be holy and to be able to enter the inner chamber.
4) what of the verses that says the YHWH enters the temple in Ezekiel from the east.? it also mentions a prince atoning for the sins of the nation.

I don't think God has a problem identifying the 144,000 as He is doing the sealing. However I would think that if it is a future event and if the descendants of the 1st believers (children of abraham) remained in the faith they are hidden under the name "christian". God only has one family under a new covenant in Christ.

so these just die and go to heaven? ok that negates any priest to do any function of the levites in the millennium. of that how many would be able to serve god in the high priest?

 

[Eugene]

what is exactly a jewish Christian to you?

Just the same as I am and that is part of the body of Christ; the church. Will them that believe during judgment after the church is taken be considered the church, and if so what evidence do you present? Would you also consider Jacob to be of the church and to have been given the same promises as the church? Did even John the Baptist have the promises you and I have? Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

those 144,000 male Hebrews were likely sealed in ad 70. no jew today can reconcile his tribe. all oral and written records are lost. you have to ask yourself these:

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. Notice that they are present with the twenty-four elders and the four living ones before the throne. They are in fact the last portion of the Church to arrive some time before the middle of the week of tribulation. How do we know that? Revelation 14:7 Saying . . .the hour of His judgment is come. . ., and just follow the story line of their testimony.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women (Man child - also note the testimony of the five wise virgins); for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men (Man child or mankind – can women be a part of these?), being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Revelation 14:5 . . They are without fault before the throne of God. Revelation 7:2. They received the seal of the living God in Revelation 7:2.

hose 144,000 male Hebrews were likely sealed in ad 70.

I certainly believe it could have been ongoing during that time, but I also believe it continues until judgment of Rev 14:7 begins: woah, we're into the second half of tribulation, the church is complete in heaven, and Mat Chapter twenty-four is in process. Brother Jason, I have absolutely no clue as to whether the numbers of them said to be 144,000 is absolute or not for I am inclined to believe the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 to be more than 24 because in Rev 5:9 they sing that they are redeemed from out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Symbolic numbering had great relevance in scripture I will not attempt to be adamant about.

 

[jasoncran]

ok then THIS modern isreal is a church in the millennium? doesn't that negate the entire need for any millennium? I don't see any need in scripture for support of that. the nation of isreal is less then 10% of the worlds population even with the other 10 tribes. so it will be another mix of Hebrews and gentiles. isn't that what the church is today? yup. more gentiles then anything. why would god then save isreal to do the exact same thing?that is why I don't believe the modern day chialism. what you have just told me that the isreal in the millennium is a church nothing more.

please show where where in the book of Ezekiel any throne of the messiah is mentioned or any of the prophets

 

[jasoncran]

I wonder I should also get with stovebolts and look at these numbers from the caballah. 12, 24, 3, 7. and 144. I know that three and seven are linked a lot to the judgement of ad 70 by the Chassidic jews.

 

[Eugene]

The 144,000 are explicitly identified as "a great multitude which no man could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues."

Rev 7:9 After this (After what? the sealing? I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

If the 144,000 were the great multitude of all peoples standing before the throne, why would the be seen later in Revelation 14:3 before the throne, and explicitly said to all be of of all the tribes of the children of Israel in Rev 7:4?

 

[Eugene]

what you have just told me that the isreal in the millennium is a church nothing more.

No, I said the church was in heaven by that time. After that time all Israel will be saved (them that do the will of God) Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. This is saying that it isn't professors of the word, but possessors of the word that qualify.

Israel's future.
Rom 11:23 And they (Israel) also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. Was there not a bill of divorce given backsliding Israel in Jer 3:8 ?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[jasoncran]

ah sheesh.

so what is the isrealite in millennium doing that is any different the early primarily jewish church?

do they offer bull goats and lambs for sin offering? you say no
do they do communion? if yes then what is the difference? nothing
do they baptize as per matthew 28 if yes then what are they?
when the gentiles believe what do they become? Hebrews or followers of Christ?

 

[Eugene]

What is the need or purpose of the Millenium? I have wondered before, and I conjecture that Jesus is going to heal the earth and show how how we were meant to live here.

Another manner of testing man as to who will follow God. God started with innocent man and he failed blaming Satan for lack of a better explanation. During the millennium Satan will be locked away, and God is not willing that any be lost, but at the end nations of men will be deceived by Satan after the thousand years to compass them of God, and God puts an end to it. Rev 20:9.