pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

[Eugene]

ok so you really CANT answer that @Eugene . that isreal isn't a church or not. that she will be a mix of gentiles as well if one is saved as a gentile one doesn't become a HEBREW. nor can you really now say that jesus must remove satan to be in control of the earth. in this millennium so God will physically stop a murder., a lustful thought? any other sins?

can you show me where the YHWH didn't say that all souls and the earth there in is his? ever think that he allows satan to do what he does? when he is bound that is another topic. In honesty no Christian can answer when that happens and why and what that is for given the myriad of issues with the chialism.

I reckon ya got me dead to rights partner. This entire discourse is taking on the familiarity of one who came to Jesus in John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? I do believe it'll all come out in the wash when we are face to face with Him that loves us.

Considering your thought of God using Satan to produce cause and effect is very scriptural. He tested Job which I'm certain Job did not agree to, but it produced in him God's perfect will for him, God put Pharaoh into power delivering Israel from subjection to Egypt (symbolic of the world). God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure and if sought, we're never without witness of His ongoing work in our lives.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

*the angels who left their place and came to earth seducing women and creating the Giber/giants ,

Why would they do that? For what purpose? Just for the fun of it?



They saw the daughters of man and saw how pretty they are , Gen 6
satan wanted to pollute the Lineage of Jesus Christ . Noah's family was true in they hadn't mixed with the angels

future: these are locust army released by satan the star who falls and is given the keys to the abyss.

How do you get from giants to an insect plague? I don't see how you reached this conclusion.

the giants according to Gen 6 were the hybrid children of the angels and daughters of man (didn't you read Gen 6 or jude?) the locust army is the spiritual symbolism of the angels when satan releases them from the pit

while I do I appreciate all the scriptures concerning the Lord's 2nd coming again however I'll ask again

which one says Jesus Christ is coming pre trib ? not one

I don't think there's one single scripture which says it plainly like you ask for. It's all inferred. A careful reading of all of the scriptures makes it pretty clear that there are two events, and it is easy to confuse the two into thinking that there is a second coming and that's it. If He's only coming one more time then riddle me this.


* EXACTLY not ONE scripture!

peter warns pauls epistles are hard to understand for the unstable and unlearned leading many to be lead astray to the error of the wicked

paul NEVER says Jesus Christ parousia is "pre trib" Jesus DOES say His parousia and our gathering is AFTER the tribulation of false Christs claiming to be Him matt 24:4-5,15,21-31,mark 13:5-6,19-28, luke 21:8,19-29

paul DOES say the Lord's day shall not come except the falling away first and the revealing of satan claiming to be and shewing himself off as if God.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.





If we meet the Lord in the air, then what we come back down to earth to be here for the 1000 year reign?


*paul didn't use the word G3772 sky he used the word g109 breath street greek for a spirit g4151 and explains we die a natural body we raise a spiritual body
I cor 15:44.




We are admonished all throughout the NT to expect the Lords return at any moment and be ready.


* paul says in II thess 2 the Lord's parousia is NOT "at hand" for us NOT to be deceived for the falling away first and revealing of satan MUST come prior as Jesus taught us in matt 24,mark 13 and luke 21.



But then again, in other places, it says His return is after definite predicted signs. That's contradictory, don't you think?


*so is man's interpretation at fault or the scriptures?



It also says, that He brings His bride with Him when he returns. Now how is that going to be possible if we are the last to leave? It can't be both ways.

*Matt 27 the Lord gave up the ghost, the rocks rent, the earth quaked, the veil ripped and the graves OPENED and those in the graves came out AFTER HIM and walked into the streets appearing before many.

I cor 15:44 we rise in spiritual bodies

Jesus rose in flesh so did they, Jesus ascended so do we in "aer" spiritual bodies
I thess 4:13-14, jude 1:14-15 and rev 19 the saints come WITH HIM are those who have died saved. they are ALREADY in heaven. then we who are ALIVE and REMAIN at His parousia which Jesus says is AFTER the tribulation. no need for a saved person to go into the grave.

Firstfruits=Jesus
the dead in Christ rise first =before we who are alive, we can't precede them
THEN we who are alive and remain at the 2nd coming & rapture



In Revelation, when John is seeing the vision of the Lamb opening the scroll and pouring the wrath of God out upon the earth, the redeemed are already there. How can this be if the pouring out of the wrath begins the Great Tribulation?

*please quote the exact verse you are speaking of, are they those who have died saved and resurrected AND raptured to heaven in spiritual bodies ?


I agree that the tares are first. At the 2nd coming. People act like if all the christians are raptured out, that there will be none here to populate the G. Tribulation, so there must not be a rapture. But think about it, how many people think they are saved but have bad doctrine in their hearts and do not walk with the Lord? They'll be here and some will certainly see the error of their ways and turn to the Lord and become saved.


* when the false Christs come whom our Lord Jesus Christ warned us of and they claim to be Jesus, how many will follow after them "thinking" it's the pre trib rapture when jesus said His coming and our gathering is after the tribulation?

the falling away/tares purged 1st= taken 1st by satan




Answer all these questions for me. Tonight after work, I'll pull out my notes and go into more detail for you. There's too many holes in a mid trib or post trib rapture theories to be true. It would create a lot of contradictions in other scriptures. There's two events.

Matt 13 Jesus says there are two events:

tares harvested first=false Christs/false rapture/foolish virgins fall for this
wheat harvested last=wise virgins wait for this


Matt 24:21-28 =the coming of false Christs prior to the Lord's coming.they are coming for all who will believe their lie claiming to be Jesus

Jesus Christ says His parousia and the our gathering ( the har*pad*zo ) are the same event for wheat:

matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:



Israel became a nation again for the first time in 2000yrs the generation of the fig tree has begun!

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Hey Randy how are you? The first resurrection has already started:

Matthew 27:50-54

1.started with those who resurrected in flesh AFTER He resurrected in flesh:

I still do not understand why you state this.(The first Resurrection has started) The resurrection on the righteous will be in the last day and we will have new bodies. I think you believe this. It is a one day event yet in the future.

John 11:24 This was the understanding that was taught. Jesus raised Lazarus as a testimony and a sign to all that God was with Him. God did many works in those days as a testimony showing Jesus to be who He claimed to be. The Christ, The Son of the Living God. So that all may believe and go to Jesus for eternal life. As Jesus taught those that listened and learned from the Father go to Him and He will raise them up on the last day. (The First Resurrection)

R.

John 11:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.



Matthew 27:50-54

King James Version (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.








1 Corinthians 15:40-45

King James Version (KJV)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.




Jesus Christ died in the flesh was buried and rose again on the 3rd day being the firstfruits, the graves opened and saints which were asleep arose after Him and came out in the streets appearing to many while Christ Jesus was here in flesh proving HE has already defeated death by His death in flesh on the cross .

Jesus ascended as do we as we believers never die but continue to ascend as members of His body in spiritual form. (Stephan acts 7)

paul says in I thess 4:13-14 we don't worry as those with no hope (salvation) for IF we believe Jesus died and rose again even so will God bring us with Him.

Jude 1:14-15 says the Lord comes with 10000s of His saints
rev 19 says the armies in heaven follow the Lord

Christ died , was buried, rose again , so we believers also ascend as why would we need to be in the grave? the church is already in heaven and gathering daily.
flesh and blood can NOT inherit the kingdom....right?

Jesus says we'll be as the angels in heaven. the "rapture" (resurrection of the saved dead) is a daily thing not a coming pre trib event as you know. the final gathering of we who are alive and remain will be at Christ's 2nd coming after the tares are purged 1st Matt 13:30 24:21-31)


the graves have already opened and the saints have already started gathering TO Him and we continue to gather TO Him and they will return WITH Him.
again why would God raise Jesus from the dead and not we who believe ON His Son?

the Last Day = last of the 3 days in the ground
THE Last Day= His 2nd coming and our gathering who are alive & remain

I still don't understand. We die (our bodies) we go to heaven. At the 2nd coming we rise again with new bodies. That is the 1st Res. Those that came out of their graves as a witness that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God in the 1st Century died again. (Their bodies). Unless one believes they are still walking this earth. I don't. That sign was not the 1st resurrection. Maybe we are stating the same thing but some how I think you hold to something else as well in addition to what the scripture states in regard to the resurrection of the righteous.

Randy

1. Jesus died in flesh was buried and rose again
2. the graves opened up and the saints rose after Him (Him being the firstfruits)
the 1st Resurrections has already started! amen!
3.Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven, so do we in spiritual bodies (Icor15:44)
4.THEN we who are alive and remain join them in the AER =breath g4151 spirit
aer is street greek for a spirit, paul didn't use the word sky 3772G
5. no verse in scripture that I know of tells us what happened to them who rose from the graves, if so please share that with me.

Christ the firstfruits
the saved dead rise first (before us) and they started already with Him and return with Him.
then we who are alive and remain change and join them in spiritual bodies


those who died saved are in heaven and will return fwith Him or we who are still here and made it through the tribulation of false Christs. the rapture is a daily thing when a saved person dies they resurrect and rapture to heaven as Stephan did in acts 7 in spirit. flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom , spirit does.

why would a saved person have to wait in the grave when the same Lord God that raised Jesus from the grave can raise our spirits To Him?

John 11:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.


Christians die but only a physical death of these body bags, our real bodies are inside of us and IF we believe ON Jesus Christ we have put on immortality

AMEN!

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

pardon but it's early ,what verse are you referring to Jesus comparing His coming to a flood?

That would be

Matthew 24:37

37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Yes its a sudden and surprising event but only because the world didn't believe the Fathers message and repent and as a result (rev 11 being the last warning/testimony/sign) were deceived into following the beast. Rev 16:15

Is that what Jesus is saying? or Is Jesus talking of when satan is kicked out of heaven he is given the keys to the pit to release the very angels that have been in chains since Genesis?

Jesus warns false Christs will come claiming to be Him, leading as many away from THE wedding to HIM as possible. wouldn't it sting to believe Jesus and go to church and live a good life up untill the 11th hour and then some imposter Jesus comes and leads one astray to the Wrath instead of the wedding?

especially since Jesus Christ said the tares would be gathered first
not to believe He's in the secret chambers or in the wilderness
not to follow after the false Christs
His coming and the gathering of the elect is after the tribulation

Just how much of a spiritual sting will the locust army give by leading all they can away from Jesus Christ to purge them as tares?

paul explains why so many are led astray in II thess 2:10-12


good talking to you Randy, I enjoy it.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIlck_Jdwxc[/video]

 

[Randy]

pardon but it's early ,what verse are you referring to Jesus comparing His coming to a flood?

That would be

Matthew 24:37

37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Yes its a sudden and surprising event but only because the world didn't believe the Fathers message and repent and as a result (rev 11 being the last warning/testimony/sign) were deceived into following the beast. Rev 16:15

Is that what Jesus is saying? or Is Jesus talking of when satan is kicked out of heaven he is given the keys to the pit to release the very angels that have been in chains since Genesis?

Jesus warns false Christs will come claiming to be Him, leading as many away from THE wedding to HIM as possible. wouldn't it sting to believe Jesus and go to church and live a good life up untill the 11th hour and then some imposter Jesus comes and leads one astray to the Wrath instead of the wedding?

especially since Jesus Christ said the tares would be gathered first
not to believe He's in the secret chambers or in the wilderness
not to follow after the false Christs
His coming and the gathering of the elect is after the tribulation

Just how much of a spiritual sting will the locust army give by leading all they can away from Jesus Christ to purge them as tares?

paul explains why so many are led astray in II thess 2:10-12


good talking to you Randy, I enjoy it.

Yes, Rev 16:15 is a coming of the Lord and it is as stated. Jesus stated what he saw in regard to satan and satan was thrown to earth along with his angels. Luke 10:18 There is at least one angel currently locked away or imprisoned who wasn't thrown to the earth. Such as the angel of the abyss. That destroyer or beast or angel of the abyss will not be released until the last testimony is given. (Rev 11) and then shall a great deception or powerful delusion enter the world and those that have not believed in the Fathers message and repented of their sin will be deceived into following the beast. The great tribulation. The timing of that release of the beast (angel of the abyss) is the 5th trump of God.

But still what does all that have to do with the resurrection of the righteous (1st resurrection) on the last day (2nd coming) ? You seem to state the 1st resurrection has already started???

Randy

 

[Randy]

1. Jesus died in flesh was buried and rose again
2. the graves opened up and the saints rose after Him (Him being the firstfruits)
the 1st Resurrections has already started! amen!
3.Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven, so do we in spiritual bodies (Icor15:44)
4.THEN we who are alive and remain join them in the AER =breath g4151 spirit
aer is street greek for a spirit, paul didn't use the word sky 3772G
5. no verse in scripture that I know of tells us what happened to them who rose from the graves, if so please share that with me.

Why wouldn't lazarus be the 1st res according to what you state and then those that rose from their graves that you speak of (I assume in human flesh) be the 2nd res? Or could it be as Jesus taught the 1st Res is at the 2nd coming on the last day. The resurrection of us all. (body of Christ) A "bodily" resurrection with new bodies made in the order of spirit not the dust of the earth. A body that our spirit will occupy just as our spirits occupy our current human bodies. A body that never wears out or dies. Clothed with immortality.

2Tim 2:18 This thought was addressed by Paul. The resurrection has not taken place. Paul didn't teach the Resurrection has already started. So thats your thought or you joined a group that teaches that thought.

I am not implying you are a false teacher as Hymenaeus and Philetus. I am addressing the thought that the 1st res has already started.

R.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Yes its a sudden and surprising event but only because the world didn't believe the Fathers message and repent and as a result (rev 11 being the last warning/testimony/sign) were deceived into following the beast. Rev 16:15

Is that what Jesus is saying? or Is Jesus talking of when satan is kicked out of heaven he is given the keys to the pit to release the very angels that have been in chains since Genesis?

Jesus warns false Christs will come claiming to be Him, leading as many away from THE wedding to HIM as possible. wouldn't it sting to believe Jesus and go to church and live a good life up untill the 11th hour and then some imposter Jesus comes and leads one astray to the Wrath instead of the wedding?

especially since Jesus Christ said the tares would be gathered first
not to believe He's in the secret chambers or in the wilderness
not to follow after the false Christs
His coming and the gathering of the elect is after the tribulation

Just how much of a spiritual sting will the locust army give by leading all they can away from Jesus Christ to purge them as tares?

paul explains why so many are led astray in II thess 2:10-12


good talking to you Randy, I enjoy it.

Yes, Rev 16:15 is a coming of the Lord and it is as stated. Jesus stated what he saw in regard to satan and satan was thrown to earth along with his angels. Luke 10:18 There is at least one angel currently locked away or imprisoned who wasn't thrown to the earth. Such as the angel of the abyss. That destroyer or beast or angel of the abyss will not be released until the last testimony is given. (Rev 11) and then shall a great deception or powerful delusion enter the world and those that have not believed in the Fathers message and repented of their sin will be deceived into following the beast. The great tribulation. The timing of that release of the beast (angel of the abyss) is the 5th trump of God.

But still what does all that have to do with the resurrection of the righteous (1st resurrection) on the last day (2nd coming) ? You seem to state the 1st resurrection has already started???

Randy

*satan fell from heaven between Gen 1:1-1:2 =the Katabol, foundation of the "world" . the world "becaome" void. In Jer 4 God speaks how HE destroyed the cities of before (1st earth age)

*satan thrown from heaven rev 12= Michael stands up and kicks stand and his angels out to earth in the last days =the coming tribulation of false Christs and satan claiming and shewing himself as if God (dan 9-11,matt 24,mark 13,luke 21,II thess 2,rev 12-14,etc)



*Jude speaks of the angels (plural) who left their inhabitation coming to earth to seduce the daughters (plural) of man, these are the same found in Gen or they could be of second influx. see Nephilim & Raphaim

*they mixed with mankind to destroy the Lineage and lust for women creating the Giber/giants.Gen 6

*the angels/antiChrist(s) (locust army/false Christs) plural have a king THE chief antiChrist =satan , the destroyer,desolater,son of perdition,the devil,the dragon,the serpent,death,many offices /same devil. apollyon abaddon etc

*the false Christs claim to be and show signs and lying wonders (mt 24/ mk13) claiming to be Jesus to seduce all they can away from THE wedding to Jesus in what many will mistakenly assume is a "pre trib" rapture.purging many as tares first, satan defiling as many wedding garments as he can disqualifying many by satan worship.

*we who refuse to defile our wedding garments are worthy of the Lamb by REFUSING satan worship/helping satan/ or following after the false Christs

*many have no love of the truth (Christ's word's who warns us about the early event of satan) that they might be saved so for this cause God sends them strong delusion that they believe a lie (false Christs is Jesus come to pre trib rapture) purging the tares from the wheat.

Of course the resurrection has already started brother, Jesus told martha HE IS the resurrection and the life, if we believe on Him we shall NEVER die.
Jesus Christ IS the first fruit, those saints who rose out of the graves are the dead in Christ rising then and continue to rise (again why would a Christian need to go into a grave IF they believe ON Jesus?)

the saved dead die in flesh and rise in spiritual bodies I cor 15:40-44

Jesus rose in flesh yet ascended, we also ascend as Stephan in acts 7 spiritually

those who rose with Jesus on the last day He wasin the earth are different only in timing from we who are alive and remain till His coming.

why is it a hard thing for the Lord God to raise us from the dead? HE raised Jesus and so we also rise IF we believe Jesus died and rose again and will return WITH HIM.

the church is gathering in heaven daily, satan will be kicked out and come with false Christs to lure all alive away from the wedding. Jesus Christ comes after the devils tribulation and we who are alive and remain who refused to worship satan will be gathered WITH them to the marriage.

somebody has to stand up for Jesus names sake, when the martyrs are killed don't we read of them "IN HEAVEN" asking how long before you avenge us and the Lord says a little longer till the rest of the martyrs die


when Jesus Christ comes after the tribulation of false Christs and brings the WRATH ,HE will avenge us! the idea of Christians still in the grave is like saying Jesus blood wasn't good enough to raise them, or maybe better said as if they really aren't a member of HIS body as one which is like saying Jesus is still in the grave.


Jesus said to believe on Him and we shall never die (eternal death) :yes

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

1. Jesus died in flesh was buried and rose again
2. the graves opened up and the saints rose after Him (Him being the firstfruits)
the 1st Resurrections has already started! amen!
3.Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven, so do we in spiritual bodies (Icor15:44)
4.THEN we who are alive and remain join them in the AER =breath g4151 spirit
aer is street greek for a spirit, paul didn't use the word sky 3772G
5. no verse in scripture that I know of tells us what happened to them who rose from the graves, if so please share that with me.

Why wouldn't lazarus be the 1st res according to what you state and then those that rose from their graves that you speak of (I assume in human flesh) be the 2nd res?


* Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life like He told martha, and if a man believe on Him He should never die. Do you think lazarus was a believer of Jesus Christ ?
Jesus is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world yet not slain till He was nailed on the cross. Time has no meaning to God. Jesus is the firstfruits of the new covenant , the veil ripped when He died. He's the first and only non sinner to die.

I can ask the question back in how is Jesus Christ called the first fruits and yet God raised the dry bones in Ezekiel? just food for thought


*why is it so hard to believe that when Jesus rose those saints who rose with Him literally participated in His resurrection?

Or ask it like this possibly: why didn't they remain in the graves till the last day? why does paul say we raise a spiritual body, I believe Him as Jesus says we'll be as the angels in heaven.

why would a saved immortal spirit have to go into the grave?



Or could it be as Jesus taught the 1st Res is at the 2nd coming on the last day. The resurrection of us all. (body of Christ) A "bodily" resurrection with new bodies made in the order of spirit not the dust of the earth. A body that our spirit will occupy just as our spirits occupy our current human bodies. A body that never wears out or dies. Clothed with immortality.


* again I would ask: why did the saints rise with Christ and didn't wait till the 2nd coming on THE Last Day? Our spiritual bodies will be clothed in white robes also called fine linen (our righteous acts) some will be dressed and some naked to their shame of how they did while on earth.



2Tim 2:18 This thought was addressed by Paul. The resurrection has not taken place. Paul didn't teach the Resurrection has already started. So thats your thought or you joined a group that teaches that thought.

* again if the resurrection hasn't started then why did the graves open and the saints appear to many in the streets? I haven't said the resurrection is past and that's it.

the resurrection isn't "past" as in it "already happened and that's it some missed it" , Jesus said He is the resurrection IF a man believeth on Him we shall never die.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.




Christ being the first of them who are made die (yet alive) in their own order
then we who are(alive and remain) at His parouisa. 3 groups.

A. Christ the first
B. Them who die saved in their own order
C. We who are alive and remain till the 2nd coming


How can Jesus come WITh 10000s of His saints and yet some of us are still alive and remain? some try to claim they raptured there which is true they resurrected from the grave and raptured to heaven "in their own order" .

false prophets try to claim the rapture is Jesus coming before the tribulation which is a cover up for the coming of false Christs. the "rapture" is daily, as Jesus Himself was raptured to heaven when He ascended, so do we as we die then we who are alive and remain are raptured by His angels to Him at the 2nd advent.

we go to Jesus till Jesus and His armies (saints & angels) come with Him at the 2nd advent for the rest of us






I am not implying you are a false teacher as Hymenaeus and Philetus. I am addressing the thought that the 1st res has already started.

R.



No problem , I have answered some yet have had to ask some questions also. this is interesting so maybe we can dig out the truth together in the word. :yes
I just don't believe a saved spirit must go into a grave and wait, if so the saints raising makes no sense, they rose in flesh yet paul says we raise in spiritual bodies so why the change? Jesus ascended into heaven so He receives our spirits as he did Stephan's in Acts 7 and the two witnesses in revelations.

 

[jasoncran]

ok, so isreal isn't the church? and yet what is exactly a jewish Christian to you? I mean you do realize that problem of yours is really what is a jewish believer.i can go even into more depth on a levite and the priests and chapters of Ezekiel. those 144,000 male Hebrews were likely sealed in ad 70. no jew today can reconcile his tribe. all oral and written records are lost. you have to ask yourself these:

1) if galatians is true then why would God today declare whom is a levite, and any tribe for the simply use of winning souls? remember isrealites were NOT to stay in isreal they were to be missionaries. its in the book of deuteromony chapter 4.
2)only a male levite not of the accursed levites could be the priest that enters into the Holy Of HOLIES. a son of ZADOK. no women priests, no women rabbis.
3) a levite must be cleansed by the blood of a goat to be holy and to be able to enter the inner chamber.
4) what of the verses that says the YHWH enters the temple in Ezekiel from the east.? it also mentions a prince atoning for the sins of the nation.

I don't think God has a problem identifying the 144,000 as He is doing the sealing. However I would think that if it is a future event and if the descendants of the 1st believers (children of abraham) remained in the faith they are hidden under the name "christian". God only has one family under a new covenant in Christ.

so these just die and go to heaven? ok that negates any priest to do any function of the levites in the millennium. of that how many would be able to serve god in the high priest?

Jesus is the High Priest. In the order of Melchizedek. (not based on genealogy (son of levi )but by Gods appointment) If 144,000 are set aside as first fruits to follow Jesus where ever He goes I would think thats while they are in their human bodies prior to the 2nd coming and they will be Jesus's faithful witnesses. Most likely many will lose their lives in that great tribulation and rise again at the resurrection of us all on the last day. 2nd Coming.

God made a New Covenant. We don't have sacrifices and offerings offered by Priests. And we are all Priests. A Holy Nation ;A Royal Priesthood; A People belonging to the living God. Peter quote Joel to his fellow Israelites. In these last days God will pour out His Spirit on all His Sons and Daughters. Act 2:17 and as Galatians states that gift is freely given.

I know this, but that truth negates any isreal in the millennium as taught. its just another church,. that is the PROBLEM.

 

[Donnyboy]

Isn't it really about how we live our lives here on earth? We make choices for a reason and if we believe there is a benefit in making a particular choice, we do it.

 

[gr8grace]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIlck_Jdwxc[/video]

Do you listen to Arnold Murray by chance?

From my position and My belief, you do not present what the pre trib rapture really is in your definition. You keep pounding home that pre trib believers will follow a false Christ that tells them that he(the false Christ) is there to rapture them out.

In the pre trib rapture truth, that is NOT possible. A false Christ cannot come up to me and try to convince me to come with Him. I know that we are Just GONE. No words,No convincing, No TIME to do anything.....It Just HAPPENS.....In the twinkling of an eye.

You keep presenting the pre trib rapture as a bunch of people who will be/are looking for a Person/Christ coming to convince us that He is or is not the Christ that has come to rapture us out. And we have a chance/time/choice to follow the right/wrong Christ.

That is NOT the pre trib rapture. The pre trib rapture is an instant disappearance of ALL believers(no matter what we believe the timing to be). No time for any discussion.

So if a false Christ comes up to me and says " I am here to rapture you out." I KNOW he is a false Christ. It does not work that way biblically speaking.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIlck_Jdwxc[/video]

Do you listen to Arnold Murray by chance?

From my position and My belief, you do not present what the pre trib rapture really is in your definition. You keep pounding home that pre trib believers will follow a false Christ that tells them that he(the false Christ) is there to rapture them out.


* there is no pre trib rapture in scripture, false prophets have added the timing of pre trib to paul's word's , IF paul teaches pre trib then what verse does he do it in ? and why does paul say in II thess 2 the Lord's parousia is after the working of satan not before? why does paul warn us as Jesus Christ to let no man deceive us concerning the Lord's parousia? Jesus warned us the false Christs come claiming to be Him for us NOT to follow after them. Jesus says His coming is after the tribulation so why do pre tribbers try to claim before the tribulation , the exact opposite of what Jesus said?






In the pre trib rapture truth, that is NOT possible. A false Christ cannot come up to me and try to convince me to come with Him. I know that we are Just GONE. No words,No convincing, No TIME to do anything.....It Just HAPPENS.....In the twinkling of an eye.


* yet not one scripture says you'll just be gone prior to the tribulation. Jesus Christ the Lord says believers will be betrayed beaten and delivered up to death yet not to meditate on what we will say for the Holy Spirit will speak through us mark 13,luke 21 etc. so how can believers be beaten betrayed and delivered up to death for HIS names sake and be flown away ? and why would a true believer think Jesus is coming before the tribulation when Jesus Christ says AFTER the tribulation?

Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



why would a Christian not believe Jesus Christ?




You keep presenting the pre trib rapture as a bunch of people who will be/are looking for a Person/Christ coming to convince us that He is or is not the Christ that has come to rapture us out. And we have a chance/time/choice to follow the right/wrong Christ.


* Jesus Christ says His parousia and our gathering is after the tribulation of false Christs, paul says the Lord's parousia and our gathering is AFTER the falling away and revealing of satan to be worshiped, paul repeats the Lord is him who's parousia is after the working of satan. so why would someone profess to be a Christian and believe different than what Jesus who IS the Lord says?

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


That is NOT the pre trib rapture. The pre trib rapture is an instant disappearance of ALL believers(no matter what we believe the timing to be). No time for any discussion.

* yet not ONE verse says a all believers will disappear before the tribulation




So if a false Christ comes up to me and says " I am here to rapture you out." I KNOW he is a false Christ. It does not work that way biblically speaking.

* NOW you know, Jesus said the false Christs will claim to be Him , they will have signs and lying wonders to seduce and when people say "He" is in the secret chambers or in the wildreness DON"T GO, Jesus tells us in luke 21:8 not to follow after the false Christs. NOBODY will just be gone, no verse documents that claim

I cor 15:51 we ALL change I cor 15: at the LAST trump, I cor 15:44 to spiritual bodies=aer

of course we all change as peter told us the heavens and earth will be on fire the elements melt and all this dissolves!

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Isn't it really about how we live our lives here on earth? We make choices for a reason and if we believe there is a benefit in making a particular choice, we do it.

if that was all it's about why would Jesus tell peter to feed His sheep? why would Jesus tell us to take heed lest we be deceived by the false Christs?
why would paul warn us not to be deceived by any means for the Lords day shall not come except the falling away first and revealing of satan to be worshiped?

If all we did was worry about how we live our lives wouldn't that make us the one who hid his talent in the ground?

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[gr8grace]

I have listened to all of Misslers rapture teachings. I line up with him. One would do well listening to him on these teachings. He challenges the listener to check it out, don't take his word for it. And If one honestly listens and challenges what he teaches on this subject, it is very very hard to honestly dispute it.

 

[gr8grace]

Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And if one studies it and throws out all of the presuppositions, one will notice that the Angels do not gather the believers in the rapture. Christ comes in the clouds and gets His Bride HIMSELF. In an instant, no angels gathering, no talking....just gone.

 

[gr8grace]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIlck_Jdwxc[/video]

Do you listen to Arnold Murray by chance?

From my position and My belief, you do not present what the pre trib rapture really is in your definition. You keep pounding home that pre trib believers will follow a false Christ that tells them that he(the false Christ) is there to rapture them out.


* there is no pre trib rapture in scripture, false prophets have added the timing of pre trib to paul's word's , IF paul teaches pre trib then what verse does he do it in ? and why does paul say in II thess 2 the Lord's parousia is after the working of satan not before? why does paul warn us as Jesus Christ to let no man deceive us concerning the Lord's parousia? Jesus warned us the false Christs come claiming to be Him for us NOT to follow after them. Jesus says His coming is after the tribulation so why do pre tribbers try to claim before the tribulation , the exact opposite of what Jesus said?






In the pre trib rapture truth, that is NOT possible. A false Christ cannot come up to me and try to convince me to come with Him. I know that we are Just GONE. No words,No convincing, No TIME to do anything.....It Just HAPPENS.....In the twinkling of an eye.


* yet not one scripture says you'll just be gone prior to the tribulation. Jesus Christ the Lord says believers will be betrayed beaten and delivered up to death yet not to meditate on what we will say for the Holy Spirit will speak through us mark 13,luke 21 etc. so how can believers be beaten betrayed and delivered up to death for HIS names sake and be flown away ? and why would a true believer think Jesus is coming before the tribulation when Jesus Christ says AFTER the tribulation?

Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



why would a Christian not believe Jesus Christ?




You keep presenting the pre trib rapture as a bunch of people who will be/are looking for a Person/Christ coming to convince us that He is or is not the Christ that has come to rapture us out. And we have a chance/time/choice to follow the right/wrong Christ.


* Jesus Christ says His parousia and our gathering is after the tribulation of false Christs, paul says the Lord's parousia and our gathering is AFTER the falling away and revealing of satan to be worshiped, paul repeats the Lord is him who's parousia is after the working of satan. so why would someone profess to be a Christian and believe different than what Jesus who IS the Lord says?

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


That is NOT the pre trib rapture. The pre trib rapture is an instant disappearance of ALL believers(no matter what we believe the timing to be). No time for any discussion.

* yet not ONE verse says a all believers will disappear before the tribulation




So if a false Christ comes up to me and says " I am here to rapture you out." I KNOW he is a false Christ. It does not work that way biblically speaking.

* NOW you know, Jesus said the false Christs will claim to be Him , they will have signs and lying wonders to seduce and when people say "He" is in the secret chambers or in the wildreness DON"T GO, Jesus tells us in luke 21:8 not to follow after the false Christs. NOBODY will just be gone, no verse documents that claim

I cor 15:51 we ALL change I cor 15: at the LAST trump, I cor 15:44 to spiritual bodies=aer

of course we all change as peter told us the heavens and earth will be on fire the elements melt and all this dissolves!

This is why I believe you have a chance at being deceived. You think that you are going through the wrath and the tribulation. That means you could believe that NOW is part of the tribulation and it is not. You could be fighting battles that are not yours and that are not of these times. We are here to spread the Gospel, not to fight battles that are for the Lord to fight.

The rapture is Christs victory alone. We are blessed by His Victory. Heck ,even Michael the Arch Angel dared not make an accusation against Satan. Why would Christ leave His beloved Bride here for Satan to beat?

 

[jasoncran]

ok, if the church is the TRIB how will any man saved NOT know that the messiah will come after the appearance of the ac? I mean he shows up and proclaim he is god and three and half years later he is stopped.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Matthew 24:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And if one studies it and throws out all of the presuppositions, one will notice that the Angels do not gather the believers in the rapture. Christ comes in the clouds and gets His Bride HIMSELF. In an instant, no angels gathering, no talking....just gone.

Jesus says in matt 13 the reapers are the angels, they will gather the tares first
Jesus did NOt say the church will be gathered out but the tares.
Jesus says His parousia is after the tribulation , the same parousia paul says is after the working of satan.

paul NEVER says Jesus Christ comes pre trib, men add that to the scripture,


what exact verse says Jesus Christ is coming pre trib? none


Is all satan has to do is come at a time you knew not disguised and shewing himself off as if God and fool so many away from the 2nd advent?


Jesus warned believers not to be deceived for false Christs shall come claiming to be Him and His parousia and our gathering is after their tribulation.

paul says the Lord's parouisa shall not come except the falling away first and the revealing of satan to be worshiped. satan disguises his coming event as if a pre trib rapture, better stick with Jesus Christ and what HE actually says instead of presumptions He's coming before He said He would, that mistake in timing is why Jesus said He prays our flight be not in winter.