pre trib rapture a dangerous ploy to deceive

[jasoncran]

No, I said the church was in heaven by that time.

hitch would have a field day. so we in the "church" wont be with jesus in heaven but without him in heaven as he is in the temple. which you have failed to show me a verse where the messiah has a throne in the city. or is a king in the land of isreal. I know where it is said it supposed to be but that is going to make Jesus a mere man as as the Hebrews of today teach that the messiah would be a political king who is sent from God to lead isreal back to the land and to restore the torah.

 

[Eugene]

o what is the isrealite in millennium doing that is any different the early primarily jewish church?

do they offer bull goats and lambs for sin offering? you say no
do they do communion? if yes then what is the difference? nothing
do they baptize as per matthew 28 if yes then what are they?
when the gentiles believe what do they become? Hebrews or followers of Christ?

I can't answer that because the church is in heaven, but maybe burying them that came against them, sowers overtaking reapers, enjoying the land God has allowed them to inhabit, following whatever rules God has for them at that time, and evangelizing? What do they believe? God! Anything I would suppose would hopefully be spiritual imagination, and using that premise I would think it will be somewhat akin to what the disciples experienced after Jesus was taken such as we read of in Act 2:44. And all that believed were together, and had all things common. I just do not know but I do trust that whatever it is God will be glorified in the outcome.

 

[jasoncran]

ok, so you cant. I don't think you realsie that the early church is more Hebrew then any modern messianic movement. as they did list and could rattle of their tribes orally and also had land and historically knew the land where it was and probably if they were Judeans lived in that land.

james one is written to whom?
in the nt is lists a woman of the tribe of asa.

 

[Eugene]

you have failed to show me a verse where the messiah has a throne in the city. or is a king in the land of isreal.

Where do you get the idea Jesus' throne must be on earth? Rev 4:2 sees Jesus' throne being set in heaven. To me that would be somewhat like saying that our president must come to my town to rule here. No, he can rule from Washington just as Jesus will rule with us reigning with Him from heaven.

At this present time Jesus is in heaven; can He judge our walk with God from there? Does He set in His Father's throne as our days man or mediator? In Christ are we not presently sitting in the heavens (Eph 2:6); us in Him and He in us? Jason, nothing is hard for God and He is not limited to our understanding. As being of the church you will not be on earth during the millennium so I wouldn't get too concerned about it, but this is just my thoughts.

 

[Eugene]

ok, so you cant. I don't think you realsie that the early church is more Hebrew then any modern messianic movement. as they did list and could rattle of their tribes orally and also had land and historically knew the land where it was and probably if they were Judeans lived in that land.

james one is written to whom?
in the nt is lists a woman of the tribe of asa.

I have no problem with what you say here. Paul even referred to the twelve tribes to King Agrippa in Acts 26:6-8 as if the king knew what he was talking of. The book of James was given to James to be given to the twelve tibes scattered abroad. It was an example to them of practical living according to one's faith. As one brother stated in his study; if you're saved, prove it by your works and walk. Grace doesn't change as to how we're saved, but others know us by our fruits.

 

[Eugene]

I posed some questions and scriptures and no one addressed them.

I'm trying here brother. ​

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

if the wrath if for the ungodly, then how can the sinners be in the millennium?

jesus compares his return to the flood, how many were saved from the ungodly in the flood? 8 and of them how many ungodly were allowed to board when the waters started to pour in on them? NONE.

that is my biggest problem with the chialistic doctrine of today. any person not saved is ungodly!

If the furnace was made 7 times hotter that those who fired it died and the 3 were thrown into it how come they didn't burn? Just because believers are here during the wrath of God doesn't mean we suffer. God is able to punish the wicked in the mist of the just...isn't HE?

pardon but it's early ,what verse are you referring to Jesus comparing His coming to a flood?

Good talking to you

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Hey Randy how are you? The first resurrection has already started:

Matthew 27:50-54

1.started with those who resurrected in flesh AFTER He resurrected in flesh:

I still do not understand why you state this.(The first Resurrection has started) The resurrection on the righteous will be in the last day and we will have new bodies. I think you believe this. It is a one day event yet in the future.

John 11:24 This was the understanding that was taught. Jesus raised Lazarus as a testimony and a sign to all that God was with Him. God did many works in those days as a testimony showing Jesus to be who He claimed to be. The Christ, The Son of the Living God. So that all may believe and go to Jesus for eternal life. As Jesus taught those that listened and learned from the Father go to Him and He will raise them up on the last day. (The First Resurrection)

R.

John 11:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.



Matthew 27:50-54

King James Version (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.








1 Corinthians 15:40-45

King James Version (KJV)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.




Jesus Christ died in the flesh was buried and rose again on the 3rd day being the firstfruits, the graves opened and saints which were asleep arose after Him and came out in the streets appearing to many while Christ Jesus was here in flesh proving HE has already defeated death by His death in flesh on the cross .

Jesus ascended as do we as we believers never die but continue to ascend as members of His body in spiritual form. (Stephan acts 7)

paul says in I thess 4:13-14 we don't worry as those with no hope (salvation) for IF we believe Jesus died and rose again even so will God bring us with Him.

Jude 1:14-15 says the Lord comes with 10000s of His saints
rev 19 says the armies in heaven follow the Lord

Christ died , was buried, rose again , so we believers also ascend as why would we need to be in the grave? the church is already in heaven and gathering daily.
flesh and blood can NOT inherit the kingdom....right?

Jesus says we'll be as the angels in heaven. the "rapture" (resurrection of the saved dead) is a daily thing not a coming pre trib event as you know. the final gathering of we who are alive and remain will be at Christ's 2nd coming after the tares are purged 1st Matt 13:30 24:21-31)


the graves have already opened and the saints have already started gathering TO Him and we continue to gather TO Him and they will return WITH Him.
again why would God raise Jesus from the dead and not we who believe ON His Son?

the Last Day = last of the 3 days in the ground
THE Last Day= His 2nd coming and our gathering who are alive & remain

 

[thethinker]

After this [/B] (After what? the sealing? I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

If the 144,000 were the great multitude of all peoples standing before the throne, why would the be seen later in Revelation 14:3 before the throne, and explicitly said to all be of of all the tribes of the children of Israel in Rev 7:4?

Did you note the Apocalyptic pattern? The Lion of the tribe of Judah was annnouced to John. But when he looked he saw that Lamb that had been slain. The Lion IS the Lamb. The Bride, the Lamb's Wife was announced to John. But when he looked he saw the New Jerusalem. The Lamb's Wife IS the New Jerusalem. The 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel were announced to John. But when he looked he saw a great multitude which no man could number from every nation of men. The 144,000 ARE the great multitude which no man can number from every nation of men.

If the 144,000 were the great multitude of all peoples standing before the throne, why would the be seen later in Revelation 14:3 before the throne, and explicitly said to all be of of all the tribes of the children of Israel in Rev 7:4?

Why would it be necessary to spell it out again? The names of the twelve tribes ONLY are written upon the New Jerusalem (the Lamb's Wife). Does Christ's Wife consist only of Jews?

Chew on that for a while.

 

[jasoncran]

you have failed to show me a verse where the messiah has a throne in the city. or is a king in the land of isreal.

Where do you get the idea Jesus' throne must be on earth? Rev 4:2 sees Jesus' throne being set in heaven. To me that would be somewhat like saying that our president must come to my town to rule here. No, he can rule from Washington just as Jesus will rule with us reigning with Him from heaven.

At this present time Jesus is in heaven; can He judge our walk with God from there? Does He set in His Father's throne as our days man or mediator? In Christ are we not presently sitting in the heavens (Eph 2:6); us in Him and He in us? Jason, nothing is hard for God and He is not limited to our understanding. As being of the church you will not be on earth during the millennium so I wouldn't get too concerned about it, but this is just my thoughts.

so he DOESNT PHYSICALLY appear in the world to reign? ok you do realize what you have just said is almost what amil says that jesus is a KING now reining over that nations. woops.

you are the first pre-mil to teach that. jesus doesn't enter into the temple and reign from the earth. I would like to see that from your church's sof. I can post mine and its premil.

We Believe: In the verbal inspiration of the Bible. In one God eternally existing in three persons; namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. That Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father, conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born of the Virgin Mary. That Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead. That He ascended to heaven and is today at the right hand of the Father as the Intercessor. That all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that repentance is commanded of God for all and necessary for forgiveness of sins. That justification, regeneration, and the new birth are wrought by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ. In sanctification subsequent to the new birth, through faith in the blood of Christ; through the Word, and by the Holy Ghost. Holiness to be God's standard of living for His people. In the baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart. In speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost. In water baptism by immersion, and all who repent should be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Divine healing is provided for all in the atonement. In the Lord's Supper and washing of the saints' feet. In the premillennial second coming of Jesus. First, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air. Second, to reign on the earth a thousand years. In the bodily resurrection; eternal life for the righteous, and eternal punishment for the wicked - See more at: http://www.churchofgod.org/index.php/site/declairation-of-faith#sthash.n2qbWZuo.dpuf

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

pardon but it's early ,what verse are you referring to Jesus comparing His coming to a flood?

That would be

Matthew 24:37

37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

who was giving and taking in marriage during Noe's time? people obviously yet who specifically does gen 6 speak of:

Genesis 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.


we know the Lord God promised not to destroy the earth by flood again, so what is Jesus speaking of by saying as the days of noe?




Joel 2
2 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.


4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.



6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:


8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.


10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?





Matthew 24:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.





Jude 1

King James Version (KJV)

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.







http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 9&version=KJV;NIVRevelation 9

King James Version (KJV)

9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. (destroyer=satan) the desolator coming to exalt himself in the temple (believers) on God's mount defiling their wedding garments by fornicating with satan prior to the 2nd advent rapture/gathering







Revelation 12:12-17

King James Version (KJV)

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


satan makes war with the saints spiritually by sending false Christs claiming to be Jesus (mt 24,mk13,lk 21) leading to satan claiming to be God on the mount



flood= lies that the false Christs are Christ, satan claiming to be God
fire smoke pestilences= blasphemies false miracles false doctrines



canker worm/caterpillar = those who eat away at "the harvest" by false doctrines



peter warns paul's epistles are hard to understand for the unstable and unlearned some being lead astray to the error of the wicked to their destruction
(we are the temple defile it and God destroys us)

satan / false teachers to add "pre trib" to pauls epistles to lead many astray to the coming of false Christs (the flood of lies /mystery of iniquity already at work)
by claiming peace peace and there is no peace! Believers know we must wait for the real Jesus Christ to come post trib and then the rapture/gathering/harvest
matt 24:29-31 (to Jerusalem zech 14,joel 2,acts 1)

 

[Sinthesis]

After this [/B] (After what? the sealing? I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

If the 144,000 were the great multitude of all peoples standing before the throne, why would the be seen later in Revelation 14:3 before the throne, and explicitly said to all be of of all the tribes of the children of Israel in Rev 7:4?

Did you note the Apocalyptic pattern? The Lion of the tribe of Judah was annnouced to John. But when he looked he saw that Lamb that had been slain. The Lion IS the Lamb. The Bride, the Lamb's Wife was announced to John. But when he looked he saw the New Jerusalem. The Lamb's Wife IS the New Jerusalem. The 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel were announced to John. But when he looked he saw a great multitude which no man could number from every nation of men. The 144,000 ARE the great multitude which no man can number from every nation of men.

If the 144,000 were the great multitude of all peoples standing before the throne, why would the be seen later in Revelation 14:3 before the throne, and explicitly said to all be of of all the tribes of the children of Israel in Rev 7:4?

Why would it be necessary to spell it out again? The names of the twelve tribes ONLY are written upon the New Jerusalem (the Lamb's Wife). Does Christ's Wife consist only of Jews?

Chew on that for a while.

You are trying to integrate too much here. The names of the tribes only apply to the sealed 'servants' of God, who are Jews. Any others who are sealed belong to Christ and are considered 'sons' instead of servants, so they aren't listed among the 144K. Christ's 'Bride' consists of both servants and sons, who after the marriage becomes a wife, and as such becomes with her Husband a new creature, whose population is known as the New Jerusalem. John's vantage point in space/time is the marriage day, so he looks to before the marriage and sees people of the bride, then turns to look after the marriage and sees all the people of the wife.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

what scripture gives one documentation to claim the rapture is "pre trib" because Jesus Christ says in matthew 24:21-31 His parousia is AFTER the tribulation of false Christs

the graves opened already and the saints have already come out of the graves matt 27 after His resurrection

paul says the resurrection of the dead is sown in the natural body and raised a spiritual body I cor 15:44 so why would a Christian who believes Jesus died in flesh and rose again have to remain in the grave? Is God not able to raise the dead? Is God the God of the living or the dead?



John 11:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.



Matthew 27:50-54

King James Version (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.



1 Thessalonians 4:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.




Jude 1:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


rev 19

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


when they come with the Lord Jesus (after the tribulation matt 24:29-3 mark 13,lk 21, II thess 2, rev 19) we (144000 Israel /great multitude gentiles rev 7) alive and remaining (who refused to be taken 1st by the flood of satan and his false Christs) shall meet them (the Lord and His armies) in spiritual bodies (aer=breath/spirit g109 g4151 I cor 15:44)

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

Rev 7 names 12,000 from each tribe of Israel including Judah AND the great multitude of gentiles from every nation, tongue and kindred who makes it out of the tribulation (of false Christs matt 24:21-31)

 

[Eugene]

so he DOESNT PHYSICALLY appear in the world to reign? ok you do realize what you have just said is almost what amil says that jesus is a KING now reining over that nations. woops.

Well I'm sure not Amill as I believe in a coming millennium after the tribulation. What I do find not to my thinking is that Jesus must leave His throne in heaven and physically come to earth to reign.

you are the first pre-mil to teach that. jesus doesn't enter into the temple and reign from the earth. I would like to see that from your church's sof. I can post mine and its premil.

My church is the same as yours made up of every believer in Christ, and the assembly I attend does not address that as a part of their SoF.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Do you believe we’re coming back to earth during the millennium after being in heaven? Does your church give scripture showing Jesus to be reigning from the earth during the millennium?

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? This seems they reside in heave when talking of them on earth.

The closest thing I can think might be Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth, and the word “On†can also be interpreted as the word “Over.â€

 

[jasoncran]

ok so you really CANT answer that @Eugene . that isreal isn't a church or not. that she will be a mix of gentiles as well if one is saved as a gentile one doesn't become a HEBREW. nor can you really now say that jesus must remove satan to be in control of the earth. in this millennium so God will physically stop a murder., a lustful thought? any other sins?

can you show me where the YHWH didn't say that all souls and the earth there in is his? ever think that he allows satan to do what he does? when he is bound that is another topic. In honesty no Christian can answer when that happens and why and what that is for given the myriad of issues with the chialism.

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

who was giving and taking in marriage during Noe's time? people obviously yet who specifically does gen 6 speak of:

What's your take on Genesis 6?

we know the Lord God promised not to destroy the earth by flood again, so what is Jesus speaking of by saying as the days of noe?

That's a matter of no small debate. What does it seem to say to you?


*the angels who left their place and came to earth seducing women and creating the Giber/giants , future: these are locust army released by satan the star who falls and is given the keys to the abyss.

what scripture gives one documentation to claim the rapture is "pre trib"

Rapture scriptures from my notes are John 14:1-3, 1 Corinthians 15:1-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Romans 8:19, 1 Corinthians 1: 7-8, 1 Corinthians 16:22, Philemon 3:20-21, Colossians 3:4, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, 2 Thessalonians 2:1,3, 1 Timothy 6:14, 2 Timothy 4:1, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 9:28, James 5:7-9, 1 Peter 1:7, 13, 1 John 2:28-32, Jude 1:21, Revelation 2 :25, Revelation 3:10

* while I do I appreciate all the scriptures concerning the Lord's 2nd coming again however I'll ask again

which one says Jesus Christ is coming pre trib ? not one




They're all inter-related and do seem to speak of two different events, a rapture, and the 2nd coming. My other post earlier in the thread has a little more detail on why I believe there are two events and not just one.


*Jesus Christ says the tares are gathered first not the church matt 13
*Jesus Christ says His parousia and our gathering is after the tribulation of false Christs coming claiming to be Him. mt24 mk13,luke 21
*paul warns the Lord's Day shall not come except the falling away 1st and revealing of satan to be worshiped.
*paul says the Lord's parousia and our gathering is after the working of satan


what gives you the idea the Lord Jesus is coming pre trib? which exact verse says that or is it a read between the lines thing someone has claimed?

why would someone not believe Jesus Christ that His parousia and our gathering is after the tribulation matt 24:29-31?

 

[Randy]

Hey Randy how are you? The first resurrection has already started:

Matthew 27:50-54

1.started with those who resurrected in flesh AFTER He resurrected in flesh:

I still do not understand why you state this.(The first Resurrection has started) The resurrection on the righteous will be in the last day and we will have new bodies. I think you believe this. It is a one day event yet in the future.

John 11:24 This was the understanding that was taught. Jesus raised Lazarus as a testimony and a sign to all that God was with Him. God did many works in those days as a testimony showing Jesus to be who He claimed to be. The Christ, The Son of the Living God. So that all may believe and go to Jesus for eternal life. As Jesus taught those that listened and learned from the Father go to Him and He will raise them up on the last day. (The First Resurrection)

R.

John 11:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.



Matthew 27:50-54

King James Version (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.








1 Corinthians 15:40-45

King James Version (KJV)

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.




Jesus Christ died in the flesh was buried and rose again on the 3rd day being the firstfruits, the graves opened and saints which were asleep arose after Him and came out in the streets appearing to many while Christ Jesus was here in flesh proving HE has already defeated death by His death in flesh on the cross .

Jesus ascended as do we as we believers never die but continue to ascend as members of His body in spiritual form. (Stephan acts 7)

paul says in I thess 4:13-14 we don't worry as those with no hope (salvation) for IF we believe Jesus died and rose again even so will God bring us with Him.

Jude 1:14-15 says the Lord comes with 10000s of His saints
rev 19 says the armies in heaven follow the Lord

Christ died , was buried, rose again , so we believers also ascend as why would we need to be in the grave? the church is already in heaven and gathering daily.
flesh and blood can NOT inherit the kingdom....right?

Jesus says we'll be as the angels in heaven. the "rapture" (resurrection of the saved dead) is a daily thing not a coming pre trib event as you know. the final gathering of we who are alive and remain will be at Christ's 2nd coming after the tares are purged 1st Matt 13:30 24:21-31)


the graves have already opened and the saints have already started gathering TO Him and we continue to gather TO Him and they will return WITH Him.
again why would God raise Jesus from the dead and not we who believe ON His Son?

the Last Day = last of the 3 days in the ground
THE Last Day= His 2nd coming and our gathering who are alive & remain

I still don't understand. We die (our bodies) we go to heaven. At the 2nd coming we rise again with new bodies. That is the 1st Res. Those that came out of their graves as a witness that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God in the 1st Century died again. (Their bodies). Unless one believes they are still walking this earth. I don't. That sign was not the 1st resurrection. Maybe we are stating the same thing but some how I think you hold to something else as well in addition to what the scripture states in regard to the resurrection of the righteous.

Randy

 

[Randy]

pardon but it's early ,what verse are you referring to Jesus comparing His coming to a flood?

That would be

Matthew 24:37

37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Yes its a sudden and surprising event but only because the world didn't believe the Fathers message and repent and as a result (rev 11 being the last warning/testimony/sign) were deceived into following the beast. Rev 16:15

 

[Randy]

ok, so isreal isn't the church? and yet what is exactly a jewish Christian to you? I mean you do realize that problem of yours is really what is a jewish believer.i can go even into more depth on a levite and the priests and chapters of Ezekiel. those 144,000 male Hebrews were likely sealed in ad 70. no jew today can reconcile his tribe. all oral and written records are lost. you have to ask yourself these:

1) if galatians is true then why would God today declare whom is a levite, and any tribe for the simply use of winning souls? remember isrealites were NOT to stay in isreal they were to be missionaries. its in the book of deuteromony chapter 4.
2)only a male levite not of the accursed levites could be the priest that enters into the Holy Of HOLIES. a son of ZADOK. no women priests, no women rabbis.
3) a levite must be cleansed by the blood of a goat to be holy and to be able to enter the inner chamber.
4) what of the verses that says the YHWH enters the temple in Ezekiel from the east.? it also mentions a prince atoning for the sins of the nation.

I don't think God has a problem identifying the 144,000 as He is doing the sealing. However I would think that if it is a future event and if the descendants of the 1st believers (children of abraham) remained in the faith they are hidden under the name "christian". God only has one family under a new covenant in Christ.

so these just die and go to heaven? ok that negates any priest to do any function of the levites in the millennium. of that how many would be able to serve god in the high priest?

Jesus is the High Priest. In the order of Melchizedek. (not based on genealogy (son of levi )but by Gods appointment) If 144,000 are set aside as first fruits to follow Jesus where ever He goes I would think thats while they are in their human bodies prior to the 2nd coming and they will be Jesus's faithful witnesses. Most likely many will lose their lives in that great tribulation and rise again at the resurrection of us all on the last day. 2nd Coming.

God made a New Covenant. We don't have sacrifices and offerings offered by Priests. And we are all Priests. A Holy Nation ;A Royal Priesthood; A People belonging to the living God. Peter quote Joel to his fellow Israelites. In these last days God will pour out His Spirit on all His Sons and Daughters. Act 2:17 and as Galatians states that gift is freely given.