Pre-Tribulation Rapture discussion.

[sheshisown]

Hail and all is well to all Pre-Tribulation Rapture beilevers! :waving


Let's go over a short description of the four most popular Christain views held currently about the rapture.

*Pre-Tribulation view, people who are looking for the appearing of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ to rapture His church BEFORE the b eginning of the tribulation.

*Mid-Tribulation, in which believers hope to at least escape the last half of the Tribulation. this view has several differing start points, I will not be-labor these ideas at all.

*Post-Tribulation, in which the church is raptured at the very end of the Tribulation.

*Lastly, a hybrid of Post tribulationism popularized in recent days by some authors of late, is called the Pre-Wrath view. In which believers adhere to an idea that there is a division between tribulation and God's wrath, usually they believe in a mid point rapture. They think that Christains will go thru part of the Tribulation but will be raptured before the full wrath of God is poured out.

Feel free to join in to the discussion, if you hold a Pre-Tribulation Rapture view. Please keep in mind, we are ONLY looking into the support of the Pre-Tribulation view for end times rapture.

Please be aware in joining the discussion that this specific is the direction and focus this thread ... :yes And thank you...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ :shades

Yes, Pre-Tribbers we have a little corner here~ where we may discuss our faith in Pre-Tribulation rapture without being contested by those who have one of the other views.

So let's get started...

IMHO, the Pre-Tribulation view, is the right view, and I encourage every believer i know to strongly consider it as the correct view.
WHY? Because in verse 18 of Thessalonians 4 in which we are commanded to comfort one another with these words... and the only view of the four dominant ones that is comforting IMHO is Pre-Tribulation Rapture. :smt056

First words of comfort...
1 Thessalonians 4:14… For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

After those belevers who have died before us (which sleep in Jesus) rise first, then we will be caught up, we will not precede them, but we will be caught up to and meet them and the Lord in the air. COOL!
Here is good comfort for those of us who have loved ones who have died knowing Jesus by faith… My mom has gone ahead of me, I will not go to Him before her, but I will go to meet Him (and her) in the clouds…

O~KAY... Four reasons to beieve in Pre Tribulation rapture...

1) This view is the ONLY one of the Tribulation views that is comforting…

How can anyone think it is comforting to think that we will, be plummeted by 100 pound hailstones, experience wars and famines unparalleled in all the history of the world, be going thru a time when the Abuso is opened up and demons will be released to torment mankind, and on and on this bad news goes. It just does not comfort me to think… Hey, anything you are going thru now, its nothin’ compared to the tribulation to come.

No, no, no, this is a promise that is meant to bring comfort.

2) Is it escapism? Am I a pencil-necked wimp?

Well, in Luke 21:36 the Lord Jesus Himself commanded us to; Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
See, as Jesus finishes His teaching on the end times, He commands us to watch and pray always that we may be counted worthy to escape all these things.

Call me an escapist if you like, but my Jesus said that is what I am to be praying for, living for, that I might be counted worthy… to escape ALL these things! What things? The things he just finished describing, the signs of the tribulation. He even tells us what for. We will stand before the Son of Man. Here our Lord shows us a contrast, we may escape these things, and instead we will be in the presence of the Son of Man.

How do we become worthy? There is only one way for anyone to become worthy. We must be robed in His righteousness, washed in His blood, be embracing the grace of His salvation. The walk of a believer does not suddenly become anything other than a walk of faith. PRAISE GOD! 2


3) Those that will not go through the Tribulation are specifically told so in the book of Revelation.

In Revelation 2:22 To the church of Thyatira struggling with spiritual sin, the Lord says; Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

This is only one group of people at the church of Thyatira. Unless they repent from the false doctrine they really believe, and their false living, they are warned, that they are not walking with the Lord they are still in spiritual sin. These, IMHO do not know the Lord, they are in the church, but they are not righteous. Because they are not in the Lord, nor do they show interest in the Lord. They do not know the Lord, personally. What is the fearful warning? They will go through the Tribulation… Which also implies that if we do know the Lord, if we have repented and believe in Him, we will not go through the Tribulation! 3


See to the church of Philadelphia the Lord Jesus says; Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Because we have heard His word, and obeyed it, and we have waited in patience for His appearing, He will surely keep His word to keep us from THE HOUR of temptation.

See the Lord uses the same word for hour~ in Matthew 25:13 "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming. This is the appointed hour, the time when the entire world will be tried, tested by God, through the time of Tribulation.

4) The book of Revelation reveals Pre-Tribulation rapture is certain by its simple order.

The order of the book of Revelation is given to John in Chapter 1 verse 19, who is told to; Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; Revelation 1:19

Write the things which you have seen: John had just seen Jesus Christ resurrected and glorified in chapter one.
And then write… the things which are: these are the seven phases or stages or ages of church history, found in chapters two and three.
Last write, the things which will be hereafter: For the old English word, hereafter, current English is rendered "after these things"… In the Greek, the specific words are meta tauta, meaning "after these things". In the English Standard Version it is; "Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this."

This is the very phrase used by the Lord at the opening of the fourth chapter of Revelation. John begins; “After these things (meta tauta) I sawâ€Â... .

What things? After church history, (chapters two and three), and then I heard a voice says John, and he is caught up into heaven where he sees an innumerable company of diverse believers. And both chapters four and five give us details of the church in heaven. :crazy

Then chapter 6-19 detail the Tribulation.
Then our Lord tells us of the Millenium, a thousand years of the reign of Christ! YEAH! and Then... a new heaven and a new earth... in which we will live happily-ever-after with the Lord! :D

So these points show us;

* WE ARE TO COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS

* WE ARE TO PRAY ALWAYS THAT WE WILL BE FOUND WORTHY TO ESCAPE THIS TRIAL COMING ON THE ENTIRE WORLD.

* WE ARE TO TRUST THAT HE WILL KEEP US FROM THIS HOUR OF TRIBULATION, BECAUSE WE HAVE KEPT HIS WORD.

* WE ARE TO RECOGNISE THE SIMPLE ORDER OF TRIBULATION; JOHN SAW JESUS RESURRECTED AND GLORIFIED (CHAPTER ONE) JOHN DETAILED THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, WHICH IS STILL GOING ON NOW, (CHAPTERS TWO AND THREE) AND LAST… JOHN STARTS CHAPTER FOUR WITH THE WORDS THAT TELL US THIS IS THE MOMENT… AFTER THESE THINGS, THE THINGS THAT WIND UP WITH CHURCH HISTORY, AND WE SEE THE BELIVERS IN HEAVEN, (CHAPTERS FOUR AND FIVE) …

Another installment to come. Please share with me, I have much to learn.

I hope and I pray that our Lord will grant us peace and strenthening faith as we share our great hope in Him!

A member of the GREAT ESCAPE in Christ... bonnie :heart

 

[sheshisown]

bump

Just wanna give Pre- Tribulationists a chance to answer BEFORE this thread is buried... :D

bonnie

 

[Vic C.]

I shall make stickeys of the two threads. Both threads will be stickeys for 14 days.

 

[sheshisown]

Hey youse guys...!

I SO got this sticky thingy wrong. . .DUH!

In creating this sticky for us, Vic has agreed to keep this a closed thread, open only to the pretribulation position, during the fourteen days it is a sticky. After it goes to the forum we hope to keep it that way. . . That is too cool!

Anybody who is into escaping the bad news coming down the pike, join in!

I will add another post later tonight.

bonnie

 

[awaken]

I will join the pre-trib train!!
I would like to start with Daniel...

In the Old Testament, the Jews often thought in terms of "seven" instead of "ten" like many of us do today. For example, Creation took seven days, there was a Sabbath year of rest for the land every seven years, there were seven days in a week, and so on. So instead of saying "49 years," for example, people in the Old Testament sometimes spoke in terms of "7 times seven years":

Leviticus 25:1: "The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai,"
Leviticus 25:2: ""Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you, the land itself must observe a sabbath to the LORD."
Leviticus 25:3: "For six years sow your fields, and for six years prune your vineyards and gather their crops."
Leviticus 25:4: "But in the seventh year the land is to have a sabbath of rest, a sabbath to the LORD. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards."
Leviticus 25:5: "Do not reap what grows of itself or harvest the grapes of your untended vines. The land is to have a year of rest."
Leviticus 25:6: "Whatever the land yields during the sabbath year will be food for you--for yourself, your manservant and maidservant, and the hired worker and temporary resident who live among you,"
Leviticus 25:7: "as well as for your livestock and the wild animals in your land. Whatever the land produces may be eaten."
Leviticus 25:8: "Count off seven sabbaths of years--seven times seven years--so that the seven sabbaths of years amount to a period of forty-nine years."

Keeping in mind this idea of "7 times seven years" (49 years), let's look at a prophecy which the angel Gabriel gave to Daniel:

Daniel 9:24: ""Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy."
Daniel 9:25: ""Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble."
Daniel 9:26: "After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."
Daniel 9:27: "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.""

In the King James Version of the Bible, Daniel 9:24 (above) begins by saying, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city." For this reason, the above prophecy is often referred to as "Daniel's '70 Weeks' prophecy." In a moment we'll see that "70 sevens" means "70 times seven years" (490 years), just as "7 times seven years" is a period of 49 years in Leviticus 25:8 (above).

Now, going back to Leviticus 25:4 (above), notice that the land of Israel was meant to have one year of rest every seven years. However, the Israelites did not properly carry out this command, and God caused them to be taken into exile to Babylon for 70 years, as Jeremiah had prophesied:

"This is what the LORD says: "When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile."" (Jeremiah 29:10-14)

When the Jews were carried off into exile to Babylon for 70 years, this allowed the land of Israel to enjoy all of the "sabbath rests" which it had not properly received:

"Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it." (Leviticus 26:34-35)

"He brought up against them the king of the Babylonians, who killed their young men with the sword in the sanctuary, and spared neither young man nor young woman, old man or aged. God handed all of them over to Nebuchadnezzar. He carried to Babylon all the articles from the temple of God, both large and small, and the treasures of the Lord's temple and the treasures of the king and his officials. They set fire to God's temple and broke down the wall of Jerusalem; they burned all the palaces and destroyed everything of value there. He carried into exile to Babylon the remnant, who escaped from the sword, and they became servants to him and his sons until the kingdom of Persia came to power. The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah." (2 Chronicles 36:17-21)

The above passages tell us that the Jews went into exile for 70 years (one year of exile for each year that the land did not have its rest), which allowed the land to enjoy all of the "sabbath rests" that it had not properly received. Since the land was supposed to receive a "sabbath rest" every seven years, and since there were 70 "sabbath rests" which the land had not received (2 Chronicles 36:17-21, above), the implication is that the land had not received its "sabbath rests" for 490 years.

This background information brings us back to Daniel's prophecy. Daniel lived during the exile in Babylon, and he understood from the prophet Jeremiah (above) that the exile would last for 70 years. This prompted Daniel to begin pleading with the Lord in prayer and petition and fasting:

"In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian kingdom--in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes." (Daniel 9:1-3)

As one of the exiled Jews in Babylon, Daniel recognized that the exile would last for 70 years (Daniel 9:1-3, above). Again, the exile was at least partly due to the fact that the Israelites had ignored the past 70 "sabbath rests" for the land, which means that the Israelites had disobeyed God for a period of 490 years (70 "sevens" of years, or 70 "weeks" of years).

I'll let you digest that then I will continue......

 

[sheshisown]

Oh YES and thank you awaken!

I asked this question in another thread a while ago, and was never answered directly, just given the :naughty ... and a long dissertation of web sites to go to, so I could be PROPERLY schooled in rapture theology. :rolling It reminded me of my professors in college so much I gave up...

I believe one KEY to understanding the end times, including our knowledge of the season of rapture, is in understanding the place of the Jews in God's economy. :yes So your track is excellent! An ancient Emporer of China once had a Christian pastor in one of his regions who had brought many chinese to salvation thru Christ. He then gave this pastor the opportunity of two hours to convince him regarding the Christian faith. As he sat down with the Emporer he said, "I can offer you the most convincing proof there is with only two words; the Jews".

Gosh, we know from history that the Jews have held a special place of struggle. Beyond any other nation of people they have been persecuted, they would have been anihilated twice, if God had not intervened. They have returned to their land as was prophesied and its desert blossoms as the rose! There are races of people from India, Ethopia, the Amazon who have been practicing the Jewish traditions, not even knowing why. And they are being brought back to the land these days. :D And our God, (their God) fights for them! Behold the battles they enter, how they win their victories! God is gathering His people Isreal to the promised land to begin His work with them again... very soon!

Please continue...

bonnie :shades

 

[awaken]

I agree...that is where most of the confusion comes in......seperating what God has in store for the Jews..and the church. I am not saying that there are not Jews and Gentiles in the Church. But most of the Jews will not turn to Jesus until after the tribulation.

Understanding Daniel is a one key to understanding the Jews and the tribulation....

As Daniel was praying, God sent the angel Gabriel to give Daniel the 70 Weeks prophecy concerning another 490-year period of time:

Daniel 9:20: "While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill--"
Daniel 9:21: "while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice."
Daniel 9:22: "He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding."
Daniel 9:23: "As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:"
Daniel 9:24: ""Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy."
Daniel 9:25: ""Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble."
Daniel 9:26: "After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."
Daniel 9:27: "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.""

Now let's quickly break down the prophecy above and examine it verse by verse:

Daniel 9:24: "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy."

This verse says that God had decreed a period of "70 sevens" (490 years) concerning Daniel's people (the Jews) and the holy city (Jerusalem). The purpose of these 70 "sevens" or 70 "weeks" was to finish transgression, put an end to sin, atone for wickedness, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy (Daniel 9:24, above). This indicates that when the 70 "weeks" (490 years) are completed, then the sins of Israel will finally and for all time be put to an end, and everlasting righteousness will be brought in. Notice that this 70 Weeks prophecy is specifically dealing with Israel's disobedience to God, and it specifically relates to Jerusalem and the Jews.


Daniel 9:25: "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble."

This tells us that the 70 "weeks" will begin when a decree is issued to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. According to The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.1362), there were four decrees issued in the Old Testament in reference to the Jews. The first of these decrees was issued by Cyrus in 538 B.C., and it is recorded in 2 Chronicles 36:23 and Ezra 1:2. However, that decree was only for rebuilding the temple, not for restoring and rebuilding the city of Jerusalem. Darius I also decreed a rebuilding of the temple in 520 B.C., but this was simply a confirmation of Cyrus' decree (see Ezra 6:6-13). The third decree was issued by Artaxerxes Longimanus in 458 B.C. (see Ezra 7:11-26), but it related specifically to finances for animal sacrifices at the temple. None of these decrees said anything about rebuilding the actual city of Jerusalem, which is what the angel Gabriel had prophesied. The decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (in Daniel's prophecy) was issued by Artaxerxes Longimanus in 445 (or 444) B.C. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8).

Therefore, the starting date for the 70 "weeks" is accepted by many scholars as being 445 (or 444) B.C., when the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was issued in fulfillment of Daniel 9:25 (above). The angel Gabriel had said that from the issuing of this decree until the Anointed One comes (i.e. the Messiah - see Luke 4:18, Acts 4:27, 10:38), there will be 7 "weeks" plus 62 "weeks" (483 years). If we start with 445 (or 444) B.C. and we add 483 years, taking into account the Jewish lunar calendar (as we saw in Part One), this brings us right up to the Triumphal Entry where Jesus officially entered Jerusalem as the Messiah, riding on a donkey. For a detailed description of the math involved, see The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Walvoord and Zuck, p.1363), or The Footsteps of the Messiah (Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, p.131), or Major Bible Prophecies (John Walvoord, chapter 16), or other books on Bible prophecy.

When Jesus entered Jerusalem riding on a donkey, Bible scholars refer to this as "the Triumphal Entry" because Jesus was officially presenting Himself to Israel as the Messiah by fulfilling a prophecy of the Messiah in Zechariah 9:9:

"The next day the great crowd that had come for the Feast heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written, "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt." [Zechariah 9:9]. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him." (John 12:12-16)

These actions by the Jews and these shouts of greeting had been prophesied concerning the long-awaited Messiah (see for example Zechariah 9:9 and Psalm 118:22-27), which tells us that the crowd was greeting Jesus as the Messiah. So at the end of the 69th "week," Jesus was officially entering Jerusalem as "the Anointed One," right on schedule (in the Greek, the word "Christ" means "Anointed," according to Strong's Greek Dictionary). The angel Gabriel's prophecy to Daniel was literally and accurately fulfilled at that moment, and the 69 "weeks" of Daniel 9:25 (above) had come to an end. This means that there was one more "week" (7 more years) left to go until Israel's sins would be completely removed for all time.

 

[awaken]

Daniel 9:26: "After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."

In this verse, Gabriel said that the Anointed One will be "cut off" after the 69th "week." The Hebrew word for "cut off" is sometimes used to describe violent deaths (see for example Genesis 9:11, 1 Samuel 17:51, Obadiah 1:9, and Nahum 3:15), and in fact Jesus was crucified just a few days after He presented Himself to Israel as the Messiah (see chapters 11 through 15 of Mark's Gospel). This is further evidence that the 69th "week" ended at the Triumphal Entry.

Gabriel also said in Daniel 9:26 (above) that "The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary." This indicates that a future ruler will come (referring to the Antichrist), and it tells us that the city of Jerusalem and the Jewish temple will be destroyed by "the people" from whom the future Antichrist will come. In 70 A.D., the Romans attacked the city of Jerusalem (see the Historical Highlights at Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs ) and destroyed the Jewish temple, which literally and accurately fulfilled the angel Gabriel's prophecy in Daniel 9:26 (above).

 

[jsbdpmc]

Resurrection is when one is raised from the dead. Rapture is when one is caught up alive.

Those who are resurrected we have:

1) Jesus.
2) Saints that were raised from the dead and seen walking around at the same time that Jesus was resurrected.
3) Dead in Christ that are raised at the rapture.
4) The saints that go into the tribulation and are martyred in the middle of the great tribulation.
5) The two witnesses who are killed, and then resurrected during the first half of the great tribulation.
6) The 144,000 after 1260 or 1290 days of the second half of the great tribulation.

Those who are raptured we have:

1) Elijah
2) Enoch
3) Jesus, after he was resurrected
4) man-child
5) The two witnesses that are killed, resurrected, and then caught up during the first half of the great tribulation.
6) The 144,000 who were raised from the dead near the end of the great tribulation, and then caught up to God.

To sum up, we have 6 resurrection periods, and 6 rapture periods.

Revelation 20:5 & 6 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection (referring to the martyred saints, not the rest of the dead – see context). Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6 sums up all the resurrections and raptures as the first resurrection. Why? Because all who are in these R&R’s will rule as kings and priests with Jesus, and the second death has no power over them. This is because they are all the Bride of Christ!

Now Numbers 10:2 talks about 2 silver trumpets. Silver means redemption, or salvation. The first trumpet sounds for the kings and priests, and the second sounds for everyone else. This is the only place in the bible where these two silver trumpets are mentioned. It is interesting to note that all the other trumpets mentioned in the bible are shofars, or rams horns. The obvious conclusion is that these 2 silver trumpets point to God’s two redemptive resurrections. The first one which is for the Bride of Christ, and the second one, at the Great White Throne Judgment, is for everyone else.

So, the first resurrection includes the 6 resurrection events, and the 6 rapture events. The second resurrection includes everyone else.

So, why is this so important?

Because those in the first resurrection, (for us this means the Pre-tribulational, secret, partial, non-imminent, literal rapture) will rule and reign with Jesus as kings and priest during the millennial reign, and forevermore after that. In other words, be in the most intimate place with the Father and the Son forever. Everyone else will be relegated to their respective places in heaven, but will not be one with the Father and the Son as the Bride is.

This is the high calling in Christ Jesus!

But you can see why theologians get mixed up arguing pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib raptures (and we have the pan-tribs, those who will wait and see how it all pans out!)

But we don’t want to wait and see how it all pans out, or we will miss it. We need to understand it, know the signs of the times, and watch for it so it does not overtake us as a thief in the night.

And only those who truly love Jesus with all their heart will be able to watch for it. As in the story of the ten virgins, all of them slept. But one was vigilant, because she could hardly wait for her groom, and that was the Bride who was awake and made the cry at mid-night, the final hour.

Now it is interesting to note that the rapture of the manchild also includes the resurrection of the dead who rise first. For this reason it is referred to as the first resurrection by Rev 20:5 indirectly. Actually, Rev 20:5 is referring to the resurrection of the martyred saints (see Rev 6:11).

But according to Numbers 10:2 there are only 2 resurrections.

Now, as I said before Rev 20:5 calls the resurrection of the martyred saints the First Resurrection! So, as far as God is concerned, they are all the same resurrection! How can this be, you may ask? Ahhh -- this is where the revelation can now be had, my friend. This is where it gets interesting! But if one is still bickering with his brother over which resurrection is the first resurrection, he will miss the truth behind the whole thing!

c)The second resurrection also has wonderful information applicable to it that cannot be understood by anyone who confuses the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord happened when Christ was annointed on the earth. The day of the Lord will happen again when his manchild is annointed (knowledge of the manchild and who he/she is is necessary to understand this and 2Thes 2). The day of the Lord will happen when we are caught up to be with him in the air at the Rapture, and avoid the great tribulation that is about to come on the whole earth. The day of the Lord happens after the Great Tribulation when Jesus comes down from heaven with the Bride and the Martyred saints, and gathers his elect (144,000) from the 4 corners of the earth, to rule and reign with them for 1000 years. The day of the Lord happens again at the Great White Throne Judgement when the rest of the dead are raised (and what they are raised to, and what happens after that are also topics of great importance and interest). The day of the Lord also refers to the Wedding Supper of the Lamb when all the eons are consumated. But if you have the day of the Lord in a box, and say it only happens once, you are getting only a small part of the entire picture.

 

[awaken]

Wow! jsbdpmc, It amazes me the new evidence of the pretrib rapture. A lot of new information! I will have to store that in my notes. Thanks!

I still see a lot of evidence in the of Daniel...

Daniel 9:27: "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

This verse says, "he will confirm a covenant with many," and people sometimes assume that the "he" is Jesus, and that the "covenant" is the New Covenant. However, there are some problems with that view. For one thing, Daniel 9:27 (above) says that this will be a seven-year covenant, yet the New Covenant in Jesus' blood was not limited to seven years. Another problem is that Daniel 9:27 (above) says that "he" will set up "an abomination that causes desolation" in the Jewish temple (desecrating the temple) until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. This cannot be describing Jesus. A further problem with that view is that the word "he" in Daniel 9:27 (above) is referring back to a person who has previously been identified, and the most recent person to be identified is "the ruler who will come" (Daniel 9:26). Notice that this "ruler" is described in another one of Daniel's prophecies which also mentions that "abomination":

"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him. . . . The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all." (Daniel 11:31-37)

This passage tells us that the "abomination" (possibly an image or an idol of "the ruler who will come" as a god) will be placed in the Jewish temple by a "ruler" or a "king" who is able to "do as he pleases" during "the time of wrath," and who will "exalt and magnify himself above every god." As we saw in Part One, the name which we often use for this future ruler is "the Antichrist."

So Daniel 9:27 (above) indicates that the Antichrist will make a "covenant" (what we might call a peace treaty) with some people for seven years, and then immediately the angel Gabriel made a point of telling us that in the middle of that treaty period the Antichrist will desecrate the Jewish temple. This implies that the treaty is with Israel, and that the Antichrist will break the treaty after three and a half years. We saw that the angel Gabriel had indicated that the entire 70 Weeks prophecy was specifically for the nation of Israel (Daniel 9:24, above), which is further evidence that it is Israel who will enter into a seven-year treaty with the Antichrist.


If you recall, we saw that the 69th "week" in Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy ended before the cross, and notice that Daniel 9:27 (above) is describing the 70th "week." So when will the 70th "week," the final seven years of the 490-year prophecy, take place? To answer this question, notice that Jesus said that the "abomination" which Daniel had prophesied about will be set up in the Jewish temple shortly before the Second Coming:

Matthew 24:14: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
Matthew 24:15: ""So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--"
Matthew 24:16: "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." . . .
Matthew 24:21: "For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again."
Matthew 24:22: "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened." . . .
Matthew 24:26: ""So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it."
Matthew 24:27: "For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." . . .
Matthew 24:30: ""At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

In the passage above, Jesus said that the Gospel will be preached in the whole world, and then the end will come (verse 14). After mentioning the end-times, Jesus immediately described "the abomination that causes desolation" from Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy (verse 15). Jesus said that this "abomination" will signal the beginning of a unique time of horrific persecution which will be worse than anything that has ever happened before or will ever happen again (verses 21-22), and then Jesus described the Second Coming (when He will return to the earth) (verses 27 and 30). Since the angel Gabriel had said that this "abomination" will happen during the 70th "week" (Daniel 9:27, above), this means that the 70th "week" (the final seven years of the 70 Weeks prophecy) will take place shortly before the Second Coming of Christ (according to Matthew 24:14-30, above).

Therefore, since the 70th "week" is still in the future, we can see that there is a gap of time after the first 69 "weeks" and before the 70th "week," and this gap has now lasted for almost 2,000 years. God does not do anything haphazardly or by accident, so there is a reason for this gap. For further evidence of this gap between the 69th and 70th "weeks," recall that the angel Gabriel had said that the 70 "weeks" were specifically decreed in order for Israel to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, and to bring in everlasting righteousness. Since all humans commit sins (1 John 1:8-10), and since we do not yet have everlasting righteousness on the earth, this is another indication that the 70th "week" is still in the future. Notice that it's not unusual for Biblical prophecies to contain gaps in time, as in these examples:

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders." (Isaiah 9:6)

"Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the war-horses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth." (Zechariah 9:9-10)

Isaiah 9:6 (above) is quoted in many Christmas pageants because in context the "child" is the baby Jesus, which describes the First Coming of Christ to the earth. However, when that verse says that "the government will be on his shoulders," this will take place during the Millennium after the Second Coming of Christ. Therefore, there is a gap of thousands of years between the first and second parts of Isaiah 9:6 (above). Similarly, the first part of Zechariah 9:9-10 (above) describes the Triumphal Entry after the First Coming of Christ (which we looked at earlier), and the second part of that passage describes Jesus' reign on earth after the Second Coming of Christ. So again, there is a gap of thousands of years between the first and second parts of Zechariah 9:9-10 (above).

 

[jsbdpmc]

awaken: I haven't gotten this far with anyone by examining the book of Daniel, because all I ever get is arguments. So congratulations for recognizing the truth! Only God can open eyes to discern His truth. I will answer your Daniel topic, but need to do further research to give you a worthy response. Meanwhile, here is a letter I wrote to another brother who was trying to understand the difference between the rapture and the second coming.

Hi, ****

You continue to confuse the Rapture with the Second Coming. And, for added measure, you also confuse the appearance of Jesus and his angels during the Great Tribulation with the aforementioned two events.

Let me explain. Here is your so called proof text for the second coming:

2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 (King James Version) “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fireâ€Â

You attribute this to his second coming. Please note that the word “revealed†is in the Greek, not “parousia†which you claim is the proof word for second coming, but “apokalupto†which means “appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelationâ€Â.To apply the precise meaning of the word “apokalupto†to 2 Thes 1,7, one must look at the context of the passage. Now the literal translation is significantly different from the King James rendering. This translation is fairly close:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 (American Standard Version) "and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire,"

If one is familiar with the book of Revelation, one would know that during the Great Tribulation that is to come upon the whole earth, Jesus is revealed with the Seven Spirits of God who pour out various forms of fire (signifying refining) upon the whole earth.

Revelation 5:6 (American Standard Version) "And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth."

Now, we all agree that the Lamb is Jesus Christ. And when the Lamb begins to break the seals (Rev 5:1) these angels of his power in flaming fire (2 Thes 1:7) are sent to the earth with fire, judgment, death and destruction.

There, are of course, many other references to the Lamb and Jesus being revealed in the Book of Revelation (ie “revealingâ€Â) dealing God’s wrath on the earth throughout the Great Tribulation, by sending angels of fire, without Jesus coming to the earth. He does not come to the earth until the END of the Great Tribulation. By then, all these seven spirits have completed their missions.

I suppose another verse in this context that could be confused to “that day†being the revealing, ergo the second coming, as you claim, is also mistranslated in the King James Version 2 Thes1:10 “when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,[a] because our testimony among you was believed.â€Â

The more literal version: American Standard Version 2 Thes1:10 “when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day.â€Â

“That day†is referring to the Pre-Tribulational rapture, and the eon prior to that, because it refers to those that believed. They were accounted worthy to escape all these things about to be coming on the whole earth - Luke21:36.
“That day†does not refer back to his revealing, as could be construed by reading the King James rendering.
“That day†cannot be interpreted as referring to his second coming, because in the context it refers specifically to the eon when saints believed.

Also note that the word “Come†in the Greek, again is not Parousia, but Erkomai. Erkomai usually points distinctly to the Second Coming.

In summary, 2 Thes 1:1-10 is talking about the revealing of Jesus as the seven spirits of God bringing fire upon the earth in the Great Tribulation. It is not talking about the Rapture or the Second Coming. This passage explains that those of unbelief who are on the earth at this time will suffer God’s refining fire. But it also admonishes us to believe and be counted worthy so that we may escape all these things about to be coming on the whole earth Luke21:36. Another reason we escape the Great Tribulation is because we have already been judged, and therefore have no need to go through another refining fire. 1 Peter 4:17 (King James Version) “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?â€Â

If we are believers we will come with Jesus at his second coming where he will be glorified in us.

It behooves us then, to be believers of the word of God, and not the doctrines of men and demons, in order that we may also be accounted worthy to be caught up to Jesus and his throne at the time of the rapture, the first resurrection, where the dead in Christ rise first, “then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lordâ€Â.1 Thes 4:15-17

We will be in heaven with Jesus during the 7 year Tribulation, and will return with him as the New Jerusalem to rule and reign with Him as His Bride for 1000 years and ever after that. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is the high calling in Christ Jesus. Do not miss it because of unbelief.

Jeremy’s added comments in brackets: 2 Thes 1:7-10 "and to you that are afflicted rest with us (because their blood cries out from the grave for vengeance), at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven (Jesus starting the Great Tribulation) with the angels of his power in flaming fire (manifesting himself and God through his angels), rendering vengeance (fiery trials of immense magnitude) to them that know not God (are not his Bride), and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus (to humble ourselves, love God and one another and have childlike faith in God): who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction (must be refined and cleansed, even if it kills them) from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might (until such time when they are counted worthy, which may not occur until after the second resurrection, or Great White Throne Judgment), when he shall come (Second Coming of Christ, not concurrent, but consecutive in time) to be glorified in his saints (his Bride, but not all born-again Christians, because the Rapture is Partial – another topic of great interest) and to be marvelled at in all them that believed (his Bride) because our testimony unto you was believed in that day."

 

[awaken]

another great post..a lot of insight! Thanks for sharing!

You are correct Daniel is not the best to defend the pre-trib...but there is a lot to learn to set the stage for deeper teachings...like the church/bride...

To conclude what I have learned from Daniel...
There has been a 2,000-year gap of time between the 69th and 70th "weeks"? This can't be an accident, God must have a purpose for this large gap of time. But what could it be? To answer this question, let's consider some facts in the order in which they occurred:

The 70 "weeks" for Israel began in 445 (or 444) B.C.


483 years later, the 69th "week" ended at the Triumphal Entry, and the 70 Weeks program for Israel was put on hold (because there is a gap of time between the 69th and 70th "weeks").


A few days after the Triumphal Entry, Jesus was crucified at Passover time (John 19:14).


Pentecost (literally, "50th" in the Greek) is always 50 days from the day after the Passover lamb is slaughtered (Leviticus 23:5-16).


The Church was created on the day of Pentecost, which was 50 days after the cross (because Pentecost is always 50 days after Passover, and Jesus was crucified at Passover).


Approximately 2,000 years later, the Church is still active on the earth, and the 70 Weeks program for Israel is still on hold (because the 70th "week" is still in the future).

Now, consider these three points:

As we have seen, the 70 Weeks program was specifically for the nation of Israel, to put an end to their sins. It never involved anyone else.


For the entire time that the 70 Weeks program was active, God deliberately kept the Church off of the earth.


God has been dealing with Israel in different ways throughout history. For example, He is currently regathering Jews back to the nation of Israel, which was re-established in 1948. Also, Jews who receive salvation through faith in Jesus before the Rapture are automatically members of the Church, along with saved Gentiles. So God is working out His plans for the Jews in various ways, but His 70 Weeks program for Israel was put on hold at the time of the Triumphal Entry. When this specific program for Israel was put on hold, almost immediately (in less than two months) God began the "Church" program.

The "Church" was kept off of the earth while the "70 Weeks" program was active, and He has deliberately not started the "70 Weeks" program back up while the "Church" program is active on the earth. The Church has not "replaced" Israel, the Church is not the "new" Israel, the Church is not the "true" Israel, the Church is not the "spiritual" Israel, the Church is not "the Israel of God," and Gentile Christians are not "spiritual Jews." Just as Israel and the Church are separate and distinct from each other, God has kept His "70 Weeks" program for Israel and His "Church" program separate and distinct from each other. God has placed the Church on the earth specifically during the gap between the 69th and 70th "weeks." All of the evidence indicates that God intends for these two programs to remain separate and distinct from each other because He has never allowed them to be mixed together in any way. The implication from all of this evidence is that these two programs will continue to be kept separate and distinct, with no mixing. Notice that if the Church goes through any part of the seven-year Tribulation period then this would mix together God's program for the Church with His program for Israel, which is something that God has never allowed to happen. There is only one view of the Rapture which preserves this separation between God's "70 Weeks" program and His "Church" program, and that is the pre-trib view. The other views of the Rapture (mid-trib, pre-wrath, mid-wrath, post-trib, etc.) are trying to mix together the "Church" program and the "70 Weeks" program, which God has never allowed to happen. All of the evidence indicates that God has intended for those two programs to be kept separate from each other, with no mixing whatsoever.

 

[sheshisown]

Hello again brothers~

I am so very pleased at the way this thread is assisting a clear and open opportunity to really delve into Pre trib rapture, and the good encouragement and unifying of our faith. I expect we will only grow in expectation as we dig in! :D

Thank you both for sharing your personal research! I have more of a general overview of the many differing scriptures that offer further evidence, I hope you may gain from the little I can add, I only started to research on my own this past year. I am adding your deeper research to my data base, THANKS!

jsbdpmc wrote to awaken: I haven't gotten this far with anyone by examining the book of Daniel, because all I ever get is arguments. So congratulations for recognizing the truth! Only God can open eyes to discern His truth. I will answer your Daniel topic, but need to do further research to give you a worthy response.

THAT is the reason for this thread... the chance to dig in deep! Oh YEAH!

In the following text I will share my next few points that look into scriptures that reveal a few more aspects of the Pre trib rapture. I number them so if you have further detail PLEASE add to my light work. :yes Or feel free to correct my research if I am off base, I might need it! :

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Points 6 and 7

6) OUR GREAT COMFORT… In chapter six the Tribulation initiates and is the time when God pours out His wrath. The bible says this directly in Revelation 6:15-17.
"And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

This makes the idea of a Mid-Tribulation rapture very difficult. Why? Because at this point the wrath of God is coming down and (we) the Lord’s children, are not appointed to wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10… For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

These are key verses for us to understand that we may by faith in His word cling to our hope in Christ. We no longer have an appointment to wrath, but now we have an appointment to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Whether we wake or sleep (whether we live or die) we will live together with Him. Now our death can be called sleep. Jesus death was death, (our death, and our full punishment) so that our death would only be sleep. For in life as much as in death we live together with Him, in His life eternal.

;) Now it is Our privilege to comfort one another…

Verse 11… Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
We can now comfort one another in the knowledge that the wrath which should have been appointed for you and me, was absorbed by our Lord on the cross, the wrath of God appointed to us, Jesus paid in full! So, of course He would not appoint us to wrath now that idea makes the security we have in Jesus of no effect. Not so! But rather we are now appointed to salvation.

7) Jesus said; in John 16:33… In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

This verse is often used to support believers having to go thru part or all of the Tribulation. :crazy I was searching last summer to prove what the scripture says about this. I found that this verse in John is speaking of all our trials as we go thru this dark world growing more evil every day. Jesus did not promise us peace, but He offered it. He said, "you may have peace." A person can follow Jesus, yet deny themselves the peace He offers. We gain the peace Jesus offered by finding it in Him. Jesus said "that in Me you may have peace." We will not find real peace anywhere else other than in Jesus.

For Jesus reminds us everywhere in the word; I live in you, I care about you, I am praying for you, I will see you thru, and I have overcome for you.

What is this tribulation then if it is not this period in Revelation?

It is the war launched against us by satan that we have to deal with every day… He has launched a war against the church because we have the Lord Jesus within us by the Holy Spirit. Did you ever wake up in the morning depressed… or get blue suddenly in the middle of the day and cannot explain it? In many cases this is evidence within our heart of the attack of our enemy. We should not be ignorant of satan’ devises. But greater is He who is in us than he who is in this world.
It simply makes no sense to me to think we will be hit from tribulation from satan now, and while we are surviving that, we will be hit from tribulation from God. No, no, no. … We will not be hit from both sides. This idea is inconceivable to me. Is this the way our Lord deals with us now?

No, certainly not. WHY?

Because the Lord’s Throne; is a Throne of what? Of grace! In fact the first part of God’s dwelling place, the tabernacle that was built ~ was the arc of God’s covenant …

So think; always on top of it ~ was the mercy seat ~ with two golden angels placed by God’s direction on either side. In Jesus’ tomb two angels sat on the stone were Jesus dead body had laid. There were also on top of this stone, the bloody linens in which His followers had wrapped His brutally slain body...

And the mercy seat of the arc was sprinkled with the blood of the Lamb. Our God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow…

Can you gents add stronger proof from the word?

Next, I will look at the biblically defined examples of the rapture, and will show how only the Pre-Trib rapture view supports these types given us by God.

Praise our soon coming King Jesus for our fellowship... bonnie

 

[awaken]

It is so refreshing to be able to discuss this without controversy..even if it is just for two weeks.

sheshisown..I agree it would be hard to comfort someone by saying..now we are going to go through the worst wrath ever.

Another convincing teaching to me is the Jewish wedding....and the Imminency of his return.
There are a number of passages in the New Testament which contain the idea that Jesus might return at any moment. In fact, apart from some of the Gospel writers, every single human author of the New Testament (writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) mentioned the nearness of the Lord's return.

A good picture of the wedding and events is the story of Rebecca and Issac (just to mention one.)

 

[Vic C.]

It is so refreshing to be able to discuss this without controversy..even if it is just for two weeks

No one said this would be an open topic in two weeks. All I said is it will be a stickey for two weeks. I said it would remain as is for those who believe in the Pre Trib position. I made a promise; I'm sticking to it.

I kinda wish I hadn't: I'm chomping at the bit, wanting to interject. Bonnie knows how I like to 'clarify' things. :help No matter what the position, it pains me to see us "preaching" to the choir. It also pains me to see people debate and arguing to the point of it becoming red-faced shouting.

So we compromise and discuss among ourselves.

Carry on.

 

[awaken]

It is so refreshing to be able to discuss this without controversy..even if it is just for two weeks

No one said this would be an open topic in two weeks. All I said is it will be a stickey for two weeks. I said it would remain as is for those who believe in the Pre Trib position. I made a promise; I'm sticking to it.

I kinda wish I hadn't: I'm chomping at the bit, wanting to interject. Bonnie knows how I like to 'clarify' things. :help No matter what the position, it pains me to see us "preaching" to the choir. It also pains me to see people debate and arguing to the point of it becoming red-faced shouting.

So we compromise and discuss among ourselves.

Carry on.

I must have misunderstood, I really do not mind people disagreeing with me as long as it is done with a sweet spirit.

I have learned a lot and even changed my way of thinking because someone showed my my error of interpretation. But I do not like to get into a discussion when people tell me I am of the devil if I believe a certain way...and go to name calling.

 

[jsbdpmc]

I am amazed at you guys! Flabergasted, even! awaken, you bring up some good stuff in Daniel, and it is still too soon for me to give you a studied reply, because I will have to read the book again in prayer, refresh my memory, and ask the Lord for further understanding. I do have some nuggets, especially Dan 9:26 &27 that I will share soon. And sheshisown, your insight is also additional support for this thread, and I can find no fault in it - rather I applaud your widom!

I hope I am not throwing a monkey wrench into your position, awaken, when I say that I believe the rapture is partial. Your position seems to indicate that the entire church is raptured, a belief shared by mainstream christianity. However, I have some scripture that points to a partial raptute. In the interests of time, I have copied below another letter sent to the same brother who argues for a post-trib rapture. His text in bold, mine in normal type:

Hello, ****

I think the pre-trib rapture is mistaken and offer these reasons:
Good work is done by Gundry on this subject in his Church and Tribulation.

1) In Matt 24 Jesus promised to gather the elect just after the signs which follow (POST) the tribulation. Math 24:31 states that he shall gather his elect from the 4 corners of HEAVEN (not earth - so this is not a rapture) at his second coming right after the great tribulation. How did the elect get into heaven in order to be gathered from there, except they were already raptured. Prior to the rapture these elect would have been asleep in the grave.
There is no pretrib rapture in the Olivet discourse which is the anchor of prophecy, I prefer to stick to the bible rather than other men's interpretations.

The one taken and left happens in the Post-trib scene (like the flood), not seven years or 3 1/2 years earlier. What Math 24:32-51 is saying is destruction shall come upon the whole world, but before it happens, some will be caught up as Noah was caught up and rescued from the great tribulation that came upon the whole earth in his day (the flood). This catching up or rapture happens immediately prior to the 7 year great tribulation. Judgement begins at the house of God - and the rapture is God's judgement on his Bride. It is as if He's saying "You have made yourselves pure, and have no spot or wrinkle, and have made yourself ready, so I am going to rescue you from the tribulation.". However the rest of the Church (the woman mentioned in Rev 12:5), the ones who were not ready (one left in the field, the other taken), and had to go out and buy oil for their lamps, entered into the tribulation where she had to be martyred or take the mark of the beast. The World Gov't annihilated the church by the end of the first 3 1/2 years of the the 7 year tribulation . (Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.)



In II Thess. 2 Paul says that Christians will be afflicted until the public visible destructive second coming. There is no relief before that . Paul could not have believed in a pre-trib rapture, because it would be untrue that they had to expect relief only at the coming of Jesus in flaming fire. II Thes 1-8 is warning Christians of that time not to believe them that say the rapture has already happened; that first there must be a great apostasy, and the Antichrist must be revealed and set himself up in the temple as God. II Thes 6&7: says "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.". This means that the Holy Spirit is holding back Satan until the manchild is raptured (taken out of the way).

In the chart I did not see the Abomination of Desolation mentioned. This is the key and sign for flight.
(Matt. 24:15) To be promised escape does not say anything about where you escape! Nothing about "off to heaven." Math 24 1-29 is talking about the Great tribulation, we both agree on that, but later in the same chapter he talks about the rapture. One must remember that the bible is not sequential in events, but can jump back and forth from one time period to another. The scholarly reader recognizes key words so he is able to interpret correctly what is being said.
In fact the opposite; Jesus says to us: "When you see the A of D in a temple then flee to the hills." That really is pointless if one is going to be taken to heaven! Yes, this is talking about the Great tribulation Dan 9 speaks of the antichrist as the prince who is to come whose END is in the flood.
This is the destruction of the coming wicked one.'
The seventieth week begins with a covenant made between this evil person and Jews.
Again, this is talking about the Great tribulation, as we are both agreed on.
Many scholars are now moving away from the pretrib to the post trib.
I think Hal Lindsay misled a lot of folk.

On the manchild I think the ref to Jesus is most natural and his ascension: prophecy includes the crucifixion too and so can look back as well as forward. Cannot be Jesus because that would make the woman in Rev 12:5 his mother Mary, who did not flee into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years immediately after her man child was born. Mary had joy to bear Jesus (John 16:21 The woman in travail has sorrow until she is delivered of the child). Mary bore Jesus at the 6th head of the beast. The women in Rev is in the time of the 7th head (World Gov't). A third of the stars did not fall before Jesus was born. Jesus fled at 2 years old, not caught up to God after he was just born.
Could not the women be the ideal Israel of God and Mary who produce the Messiah? The woman could not have been Israel because Israel is not in the new testament dispensation. Israel was under the 6th head at the time of Christ. Israel never fled into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years. Israel persecuted church of Christ. Israel was not crowned with a victor's wreath as the woman is who perseveres unto the end (she is martyred).
The woman is the people of God. The woman remains on earth and flees, escapes the gt trib.
(not by going to heaven but fleeing to the wilderness). Mary was under old dispensation (moon). Church is not World Church but born-again church. Woman is symbolic of church elsewhere in bible - Math 5:22-32; 1Cor 2:3&7-9; 2Cor 11:2; Math 25:1-13; Gal 4:19-26; Rev 19:7; and Rev 21:2&9. Harlot represents false church.
The obvious ref to manchild would be firstly the Messiah I think. Rev is a book of prophecy, written after Christ was born. Christ was born at 6th head. Devil did not attempt to devour Jesus. See notes above.
The rest of the NT does not know of any departure to heaven before the second coming.
Paul says we go out to meet the descending Lord.
Main Rapture Proof Texts:
1Thes 4:13-18 We which are alive and remain shall be caught up.
Rev 12:1-14 Manchild is caught up, and woman is left for 1260 days of perscution.
Rev 3:10 We are promised escape from a coming world wide time of trial.
2 Thes 2:1-8 The apostasy and the first revealing of the Anti-Christ precede the rapture. He (manchild) is taken out of midst, and then the Anti-Christ is revealed again. (the 7th head revived which is now the 8th).
1 Cor 15:51-52 We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed.
Math 24:36-41 Some escape global trial like Noah, because one is taken, the other left.
Luke 21:28-36 Expect the rapture when signs first begin, shake sleep, and pray that you may escape all these things, not half (mid-trib) or none (post-trib) of them.
Heb 11:5 Enoch is proof God can and will rapture people (literal, partial).
See also Gen 5:24; 2Kings 2:11; Song 2:10-14; Isa 26:14-21; 66:5-9; John 14:1-2; Acts 8:39; 2Cor 12:2-4; Col 3:4; 1Thes 5:1-11; Tit 2:13; Heb 9:28; 11:35; James 5:7-8; 1Jn 3:2; Jude 14.

The word "rapture" is biblical.
The english word "rapture" is derived from the Latin word raptus, the past participle of the verb rapere, which means "to seize or snatch by force".
The Latin Bible has "rapture" (rapere, raptum, raptus, etc.) in every place the Greek New Testament has harpazo:
Math 11:12 take by force
Math 13:9 catcheth away
John 6:15 take by force
John 10:12,28,29 catcheth, pluck
Acts 8:39 caught away (in body)
Acts 23:10 take by force
2Cor 12:2,4 caught up (in spirit)
1Thess 4:17 caught up
Jude 23 pulling
Rev 12:5 caught up.

The english word "rapture" means to be "caught away in body or spirit"; both ideas are in the bible in verses using harpazo. These verses, like 1Thess 4:17 could be translated "shall be raptured". The word "rapture" is in the bible in the same sense as "God" and "Church". "Rapture" is an English word that accurately reflects the meaning of the Greek in these passages.

The Rapture is Pre-Tribulational
(The rapture occurs before the seven year period of tribulation and plagues).
Rev 12:1-14 The manchild is caught up before the 1260 day persecution of the woman.
Rev 3:10 The Philadelphia church escapes the world wide hour of trial (see Rev 17:12).
Luke 21:28 the redemption (of the physical body at the Rapture, Rom 8:23) is drawing nigh when certain events begin to occur.
Luke 21:36 We shall escape all these things, not half these things (mid-trib) or none of these things (post-trib).
2Thes 2:7,8 He (manchild) is suddenly taken out of the midst, and then the Antichrist is revealed to rule in the Tribulation.
Math 24:37-39 Escape world wide trial like Noah by being lifted up and carried away.
2Peter3:4 World conditions are relatively unchanged before the Rapture, so the Rapture cannot occur after the Antichrist, Tribulation, plagues, wrath of God, and Armadeddon.
1Thess 5:9 God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation.

The Rapture is Partial
Rev 12:1-14 The manchild is raptured, but the woman is not raptured.
Math 24:40,41 One is taken, and the other is left to die (in the Tribulation) as in the flood.
The parallel here is that some who died in flood were saved but not taken (1Peter 3:19,20).
Luke 21:34,36 Believers must meet certain conditions to escape.
Phil 3:10-15 Paul wanted to be resurrected out from amont the righteous dead. All believers are not raised at the same time (1Cor 15:23; Math 27:52,53; Rev 20:46).
Rev 3:10,14-22 The Philadelphia church is raptured because they meet the conditions.
Heb 11:5 The rapture of Enoch is proof that a literal, partial Rapture is possible.
Heb 11:35 There is a better resurrection, with differences even among believers.
Rev 13:7 The pre-tribulational Rapture is true, but there are saints in the Great Tribulation, a fact best explained by the partial Rapture.

The Bride of Christ is distinct from the guests at the wedding (Song 2:10-13; 6:8-13; Math 22:10; Rev 19:7-9). The bride makes herself ready (Eph 5:27; Rev 19:7).

The Rapture is Secret
(The Rapture is visible and audible for those taken, but not for everyone on Earth).
1Cor 15:22 The Rapture is instantaneous, thus invisible , being too quick to see.
Col 3:4 When he appears, we appear instantaneously with him.
1Thes 4:16 Everyone does not necessarily discern the sounds and appearance of the Lord (John 12:28,29; Acts 22:7,9).
Heb 9:28 He shall appear to those who look for him, not to everyone.
1John 3:2 When he appears, we, not everyone, shall see him.

The Rapture is Non-Imminent
(Certain prophecies must be fulfilled before the Rapture can occur. It is not likely to happen at any moment).
Eze 37:1-10 The dry bones (of the church) must come together and become an army.
Joel 2:23 The former and latter rain must come.
Isa 52:6-8 God's people must know His name and see eye to eye.
Math 24:14 The church must preach the Gospel to all nations for a witness.
Luke 21:28-31 The church must be bowed over and see certain signs.
Acts 3:21 Christ cannot descend from Heaven until the restoration of all things, and then he will come (1Thes 4:16).
Eph 4:3,13 The church must come into the unity of the Spirit and the unity of the faith.
Eph 5:25-27 The church must make herself ready as a spotless bride (Rev 19:7).
2Thes 2:1-2 The apostacy much first occur.
2Thes 2:3 The first revealing of the Antichrist must occur (second revealing 2Thes 2:8).
Rev 12:1-5 World government must first be established (crown on the 7th head).
Rev 12:5 The church must attain the maturity of the manchild (a perfect man, Eph 4:11-13).

Manchild
(Invisible company of mature, perfected believers within the church).
Isa 26:17-21 As a woman with child, we have only brought forth wind, not deliverance.
Isa 66:5-9 She was delivered of a manchild, called a nation and Zion's children.
Jer 31:22 The LORD has created a new thing: a woman shall compass a man.
John 16:21 The woman in travail has sorrow until she is delivered of the child.
Eph 4:13 Until we (plural, saints) all come unto a perfect man (singular, manchild).
1Thess 2:7 He who now restrains will restrain until he be suddenly taken out of the midst.
Rev 12:1-6 The manchild was caught up toward God and His throne.

The base text is Matt 24:29 which shows the gathering of the elect, and in the NT that is the people of God, is POST tribulation, and they are gathered from the four points of the compass.
We both agree that this is the second coming of Christ, an event that happens after the tribulation, and is separate from the Rapture, where he just appears in the air.

 

[researcher]

This looks like a fun topic. ;) :D

I used to be post-trib, now I'm "no-trib."

I think the rapture happened, long, long ago. ;) :D

1900 and some years ago the Apostles wrote -

Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

2Ti 4:1 I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ,
who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign--

Rom 13:11 And this, knowing the season, that already it is time for you to awake out of sleep: for now is salvation nearer to us than when we first believed.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.

And Jesus told the believers 1900 years ago:

Rev 3:11 'I am coming quickly! Be holding fast what you have, so that no one shall receive your victor's wreath.

Rev 22:7 "{And} listen! I am coming quickly! Happy [is] the one keeping the words of the prophecy of this scroll."

Rev 22:12 "Listen! I am coming quickly, and My reward [is] with me, to render [or, repay] to each as his work will be [fig., according to his deeds].

Rev 22:20 The One testifying to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly!" So be it! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus!

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
Mat 10:6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Who knows, maybe Jesus did take them before the trib. Then the pre-tribbers would be right.

But, a lot of Christians were killed and tortured so, I'd have to say it was post trib, pre-wrath. ;) :D :D

 

[Vic C.]

But, a lot of Christians were killed and tortured so, I'd have to say it was post trib, pre-wrath.

While I may agree, I promised Bonnie this would be a discussion on pre tribulation. Thanks for understanding, researcher.

Maybe you'd like to start a post trib/pre wrath or a no trib/pre wrath thread. Then I might join in too. :D

 

[awaken]

jsbdpmc, I have been taught a partial rapture and also more than one rapture throughout the tribulation..it deals with the first fruits...harvest of wheat, barley etc. It is a very deep study!


Matthew 13:24-43 In this parable we see weeds growing up among the wheat. Jesus said that when the harvest comes, the weeds will first be collected to be burned, and then the wheat will be brought into the barn. Jesus explained this parable by saying that at the end of the age, the angels will weed out all unrighteous people and throw them into the fiery furnace, and the righteous people will enjoy the kingdom of their Father. This parable gives us the order of events which will happen when Jesus returns to the earth at the Second Coming. First all of the unrighteous survivors of the Tribulation will be killed (and the angels will take them to the "fire" of Hades where they will wait until Judgment Day), and then the righteous survivors of the Tribulation will enter into the Millennial Kingdom (Christ's thousand-year reign of righteousness, peace, and prosperity on the earth after the Second Coming). These unrighteous survivors of the Tribulation will be killed at the "Sheep and Goats Judgment" after the Second Coming.

Matthew 13:47-50 In this parable, Jesus explained that at the end of the age, the angels will separate the unrighteous survivors of the Tribulation from the righteous survivors (at the Sheep and Goats Judgment), and then the unrighteous survivors will be "thrown into the fiery furnace." So this parable essentially repeats what Jesus said in Matthew 13:24-43 (above). Again, when Jesus returns to the earth at the Second Coming, all of the unrighteous survivors of the Tribulation will be "taken" in judgment by being killed.

The disciples were essentially asking for three signs to watch for (not all of the Gospels record these three questions, and not all of the Gospels record Jesus' answers to these three questions). Now let's look at the entire Olivet Discourse and see how Jesus replied to the disciples' questions:

Matthew 24:4-8, Mark 13:6-8, and Luke 21:8-11

"Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains." (Matthew 24:4-8)

"Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many. When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains." (Mark 13:6-8)

"He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them. When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away." Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven." (Luke 21:8-11)

Notice that Jesus began His reply by describing some things which are not the signs to watch for. In Matthew 24:4-6, Mark 13:6-7, and Luke 21:8-9 (above), Jesus said that there will be false Messiahs, there will be wars, and there will be rumors of wars, but these things are not the sign of the end of the age. Next, Jesus described a world war which will be accompanied by famines and earthquakes, and He compared this to the beginning of "birth pains" when a woman goes into labor (Matthew 24:7-8, Mark 13:8, Luke 21:10-11, above). He said that this will be the sign that the end of the age has begun, and this was the answer to the disciples' third question.

Next, Jesus told the disciples what will happen to them before the end of the age. He said that the disciples will be persecuted and hated and betrayed, and some of them will be put to death, and their persecutions will enable them to be witnesses, and so on. It's important to try to fit prophetic passages into their proper places in the overall scheme of end-times prophecy, and the words "first" and "but before all this" indicate that the above passages will take place before the sign of the end of the age. The passage (Matthew 24:7-14) sounds very similar to Mark 13:8-13 and Luke 21:10-19 because it contains the sign of the end of the age. Jesus was describing some things which will take place after the sign of the end of the age.

The New Testament tells us that all Christians should expect persecution during their lifetimes (2 Timothy 3:12), There will be a massive persecution and martyrdom of saints during the first half of the Tribulation, and a terrible persecution of Jews will begin at the mid-point of the Tribulation, and the saints and the nation of Israel will be persecuted throughout the second half of the Tribulation. Therefore, when we see passages which describe persecutions, it is important to look at the context in order to determine where those passages fit into the scheme of end-times prophecy. For example, in Mark 13:8-13 and Luke 21:10-19, Jesus specifically said that those persecutions will happen before the sign of the end of the age. This indicates that the "you" in those passages probably includes the original disciples.

However, in Matthew 24:7-14, after Jesus described the sign of the end of the age He said "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted." Therefore, this persecution will happen after the sign of the end of the age takes place, and notice that the things which Jesus described in this passage correspond with the first half of the Tribulation. This indicates that the "you" in this passage is more of a general "you" which refers to those who will be alive during the Tribulation (rather than referring to the original disciples.)

Luke 21:20-24
This passage says that when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies then its desolation (or destruction) is near, and the Jews should flee to the mountains. This is Jesus' answer to the disciples' first question about when the temple will be destroyed, and none of the other Gospels record this answer. According to scholars, this prophecy was fulfilled after the first Jewish revolt broke out against the Romans in 66 A.D. (see for example The Footsteps of the Messiah , Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, p. 439). The Romans surrounded Jerusalem, but then they lifted the siege temporarily when they realized that their supply lines were not secure enough for an extended siege. When Jerusalem was no longer surrounded, the Jewish Christians fled Jerusalem and set up a new community on the other side of the Jordan River because of Jesus' prophecy in the passage above. In 68 A.D. the Romans once again besieged the city, and in 70 A.D. the city of Jerusalem and the Jewish temple were destroyed, just as Jesus had prophesied. In addition, Jesus said in this passage that the Jews will be scattered to all the nations, which happened after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and Jesus said that Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, which began when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Matthew 24:15-28, Mark 13:14-23
In these two passages, Jesus described a situation which will be somewhat similar to the Luke 21:20-24 passage (because all three passages say that the Jews should flee Jerusalem), and this similarity sometimes confuses people into assuming that all three of these passages are referring to the same thing. To clear up the confusion,We will first need to compare the Matthew and Mark passages with the Luke passage and list the differences between them...I will post them tomorrow!