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Pre Wrath overview

Thanks Judy, Vic and Cameron,

I always like to check out my understanding against others and this has been a quite an exchange.

However, I can't agree with your interpretations or biblical logic. It is always nice to read different stuff to test my own ideas.

Thanks again, I'll weigh in on some other topics later maybe,

noble6
 
Some 25 yrs ago I surrendered my life to the Lord at age 37, I prayed for days for the Lord to revel himself to me.

After He started speaking with me telling me to read the scriptures.
I asked which group I should go to church with?

He told me not to get involved with any.
I then asked about a Bible study guide.
His answer was not to, because it was written by man with a denominational slant.
After about 10 yrs of the Lord teaching Me scripture, I told him that I needed help to write a book.
He then asked me, what for? I told Him to help others to know what He had told me.
He told me that He didn't call me to write a book.
When I asked about others that had written books.
He told me he had not called any of them to write books either.
And gave me Jude11.
So if I have a question I go to the Lord for the answers.Not books.

We are in the time of 2Ti.4:4 the truth shall be turned into fables.
And I read a lot of it here on this web site.

Now all though the word there are summarys done about the end times,
But the book of Rev. is the only place that it is given in order and in sequence.

When giving a summary you would touch on the major points, and maybe not in exact order, but in a general order.
If you look at the bible as a trial with case presented at the end , and the summarys before hand it will come together better.
The book of Rev. is 10 yrs long not 7
The first 3 plus yrs is dealing with the five foolish virgins, then God seales the 144,000 to preach the gospel, for 3 plus yrs. Then the 2 wittnesses preach for 3/12 yrs.

In Rev5:11 this 10,000x 10,000 is the same 10,000x 10,000 in Dan.7:10 and jude14, And Dan. 7: 22 and Rev20:4 and I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them,and judgement was given unto them.

Take notice in the letters to the churches that the overcomer is called He , and the church is always called she.

Rev. 12 is the church ( SHE) and the man child is he, to rule with a rod of iron, Now read Rev.2:26&27. Who will rule?

Ask God He will Answer.
At no place in the bible are we told to ask anyone else.
 
Sometimes when I ask God for answers, He shows me Light in the least likely places. It could be a elder Christian, it could be one of my Jewish friends, it could even be from a book. :o I filter it though my understanding of Scripture. God is bigger than I and isn't limited to any particular method of communication.

He even talks to people through burning bushes. :angel:
 
Vic
lets see now Jesus said Matt.10 :8 freely you have recieved,freely give.
So if I write a book and sell it am I giving freely?Or if God gives me words to a song , and I make a recording and sell it Or am I merchandising the word of God.

THIS IS WHAT THE MONEY CHANGERS WERE DOING THAT MADE JESUS SO MAD. Matt.21:12 , Mk.11:15 Merchandising the word of God.

He only uses things outside of his word to teach only if you have been out of his word and not hearing from him, and this is past tence. He will not send you out to get it.

If you have questions ask him then wait for the answer from him.

He will answer from his word or speak to you , he will not cost you any money for the answer.

He has given his Holy Spirit so we do not use bushes, donkeys or fleeces
any longer.
 
THIS IS WHAT THE MONEY CHANGERS WERE DOING THAT MADE JESUS SO MAD. Matt.21:12 , Mk.11:15 Merchandising the word of God.
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Actually, the practice of selling animals for sacrifice was a common practice. People came from very long distances and were not always able to bring livestock with them on the journey. What Jesus was annoyed with was, in a contemporary sense, price gouging.

Anyways, the answers from elders, Jewish coworkers, etc. is always free. Books are often donated to my church library or given freely to me. We disagree at the ways God reveals His word to us. That's ok... it makes neither one os any more right or wrong.

Peace,
Vic
 
Vic
Actually, the practice of selling animals for sacrifice was a common practice. People came from very long distances and were not always able to bring livestock with them on the journey. What Jesus was annoyed with was, in a contemporary sense, price gouging.

I know that some groups like to say this. So they can sell things in their lobby.

But the Spirit of God told me this is not so.

John 2:13-16 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and dove, and the changers of money sitting;------------------v16And said unto them that sold doves,( Take this things hence; make not my Father's house an house of MERCHANDISE.)
 
Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

I don't think Jesus objected to making a profit. That would certainly contradict the Parable of the Talents. I think Jesus objected to them charging more than the animals were worth and for doing so in a House of Worship.
 
Vic

The reason Jesus called them thieves was because of the livestock they sold.

Numbers!9:2 bring thee a red heifer without spot or blemish, and upon which never came a yoke.

Numbers 28:3 ye shall offer unto the Lord, 2 lambs of the first year without spot.

Numbers28:9 , 28:11 , 29:17 , 29:16 all repeat this.

How would you know if the heifer had a yoke on it?
How would you know if the lambs were of the first year?
How would you know if it were unclean or not ?
There are 50 to 60 verses in Lev. and numbers that make reference to what is clean and unclean.

To be sure of what the scripture says you have to be lead by the Spirit of God, not a book or what someone else says, That is why God told me not to go to church, while he was teaching me what scripture said.
Paul went through the same thing Gal.1:11-18 for a time of three yrs.
Even then those in thessalonica searched the scriptures checking him out.Acts17:11

1John 2:27 Ye need not that any man teach you.
Not by book or any other means other than the bible.
All books no matter which have a doctrinal slant in them, even some of the newer bibles.
 
Darrell dunn said:
Vic

The reason Jesus called them thieves was because of the livestock they sold.

Numbers!9:2 bring thee a red heifer without spot or blemish, and upon which never came a yoke.

Numbers 28:3 ye shall offer unto the Lord, 2 lambs of the first year without spot.

Numbers28:9 , 28:11 , 29:17 , 29:16 all repeat this.

How would you know if the heifer had a yoke on it?
How would you know if the lambs were of the first year?
How would you know if it were unclean or not ?
There are 50 to 60 verses in Lev. and numbers that make reference to what is clean and unclean.

To be sure of what the scripture says you have to be lead by the Spirit of God, not a book or what someone else says, That is why God told me not to go to church, while he was teaching me what scripture said.
Paul went through the same thing Gal.1:11-18 for a time of three yrs.
Even then those in thessalonica searched the scriptures checking him out.Acts17:11

1John 2:27 Ye need not that any man teach you.
Not by book or any other means other than the bible.
All books no matter which have a doctrinal slant in them, even some of the newer bibles.
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15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; 16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. 17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. 18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. Mark 11:15-18

12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. Matthew 21:12-13

I read that Jesus cast all of those selling animals out of the temple; livestock is not mentioned but doves are. I suspect that the price being charged was too high, and that the selling should have taken place somewhere other than the temple of God.
 
Vic said:
Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

I don't think Jesus objected to making a profit. That would certainly contradict the Parable of the Talents. I think Jesus objected to them charging more than the animals were worth and for doing so in a House of Worship.
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Well, remember what moneychangers were. They simply took your money and charged you a fee for holding it and changing it to local currency.

There profit wasn't from the result of any REAL work, and was really just a form of extortion.
 
Did you not read John's account of the matter?
John2:13-16

Then you should ask God for the answer not someone else.

And God dose not speak through others to you unless He can't reach you because you are unsaved.

The best way to be miss lead is to read a book or ask someone before you have been taught by the Spirit of God.1John 2:27but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth,and is no lie.
 
Darrell dunn said:
Then you should ask God for the answer not someone else.

And God dose not speak through others to you unless He can't reach you because you are unsaved.
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Well, this is certainly a contradiction on your part. Both Solo and I are born again believers, yet here you are trying to give us the answers. I guess God doesn't speak through others unless it is you.

I mean no offense by what I said above, but look at what's happenning. You are telling us He doesn't speak through others but it's ok for us to believe you. :-?
 
Vic
A cute play on words. I said that you should ask God.
not ask me or anyone else.

Eph.4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunnintg craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

1Tim.4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits. and doctrines of devils. Read the letters to the churches Rev. 2&3 it is inside the church.

2Tim.4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine. v4 and shall be turned into fables. Read the letters to the churches Rev. 2&3

The Lord taught me the word, only out of the bible, not any church or book. He will do the same for you.
He tells me when something is wrong, and I tell you,to go to Him for the correct answer.

I hold a regular job, and do not get 1 cent for telling you and others to go to God for the answers.
 
Darrell dunn said:
Vic
A cute play on words. I said that you should ask God.
not ask me or anyone else....

... The Lord taught me the word, only out of the bible, not any church or book. He will do the same for you. He tells me when something is wrong, and I tell you,to go to Him for the correct answer.

I hold a regular job, and do not get 1 cent for telling you and others to go to God for the answers.
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Hi Darrell, I understand what you are saying, I just happen to disagree on how God reveals Himself to me. No problem. Any "play on words" was unintentional. :oops:

I do need to point this out...
Darrell dunn said:
...The catching away will be at Rev. ch 4:1 then the AC will come Rev.6:2

To make it work any other way, you have to twist scripture.
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I take it from reading your posts you believe in Pre Tribulation. Most of what you have posted about the "catching up" seems to be classic Pre-Tribulation textbook teaching. I'm not calling you a liar but some of the things you have posted about End Times did not come from the Bible. Somewhere along the line, you listened to someone, read a book, website, etc. that influenced you. Nothing to be ashamed about... we all do it. God gave us a brain and expects us to use it. He also gave us His Spirit for purposes of discernment.

Feel free to post a rebuttal, but we should be getting back to the topic at hand, which is "PreWrath Overview". Which reminds me... where is Jason? He started this thread. :lol:
 
Feel free to post a rebuttal, but we should be getting back to the topic at hand, which is "PreWrath Overview". Which reminds me... where is Jason? He started this thread. :lol:
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Jason is busy reading the Sign by Robert VanKampen... :wink: I got a PM from him and with my work schedule haven't had the time to answer him. :sad
 
Vic

I was born again when I was 12 yrs old then didn't walk with the Lord for 25 Yrs nor go to church since I was the only one saved in my family, then I went to the alter the night my grandson was being christened. My daughter in law was saved.

Now right after that I heard a preacher on the radio say that the Lords eyes run to and fro through out the earth looking for someone to show Himself to.

I started to pray that the Lord would show himself to me, after a couple of weeks I realized that the Lord was telling me to read scripture.This is a long story So I will tell it another time,

After I started reading the scripture with the Spirit guiding me He told me not to get involved with any group< for about a year> During this time a young preacher kept coming by to invite us to church, and couldn't hardly believe that the Lord had told me not to go to church.

Then after the yr the Lord told me to go to his church . Now the Lord was still teaching me the bible, and I would go down and talk to the preacher about what the Lord was teaching me.

After a long time of doing this he one day jump up and said watch what you say about that because it is what another group teaches.

Now I will tell you the same thing that I told Him, The Lord taught me this and I didn't get it from someone else, So you must be wrong and they are right.
 
Having reviewed this link http://members.aol.com/chursey/prewrath.htm that Judy posted earlier, I find the Pre-wrath view rather shaky.

The author uses a rather circular arguement to state that the Great Tribulation begins in the MIDDLE of the70th week of Daniel. I fail to seehow the opening of the Seven Seals and blowing of the first five of the Seven Trumpets can be excluded from the Great Tribultion (although I have found where Milligan makes a case for excluding the Four Horsemen)

He also makes the false assertion that all pre-tribbers believe Matthew 24 refers to Israel. In fact, I'd most if not all, pre-tribbers believe this passage refers to the Church Age, which will be ended when the Rapture occurs.

And also, he makes the arguement that the Parasouia and Rapture are the same event without supplying any evidence to support it.

Finally, he tries to make the case that the Lord's return cannot be viewed as imminent. Again, he uses the circular arguement that because Israel was not a nation before 1948, the Lord couldn't have returned then and thus believing the Lord's return was imminent was a false belief before 1948. Well, as the old saying goes, hindsight is 20/20.

To summarize, it seems like this webpage does more to simply attack the position of pre-tribbers than it does to present a clear vision of an alternate interpretation of Scripture.
 
I will first say that at first glance, that may not be the best of sites for explaining the "Pre-Wrath view. I will take a closer look at it.

In the meantime, you may want to give this (link below) a read. It's long but it is detailed. L. Ray Smith is a Universalist, but don't hold that against him. LOL It is a very good read, IMO.

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

You may even want to scroll down to this part of the page...
"(5) A careful examination of the expression "the day of the Lord" will show that it includes the tribulation."
as it pertains to The GT and the Day of the Lord.
_________________________________________

Before we even begin to discuss this, may I ask; what is the Great Tribulation in your opinion? Do you feel tribulation and persecution against the saints are acts of God or the Adversary?

I even put together a page with all the NT verses containing the word Tribulation.

http://207.190.215.245/123pics/Tribulation.htm

One more thing... can you point us to the verse or verses that show us a specific timeframe for the GT?

Peace,
Vic
 
Judy said:
Feel free to post a rebuttal, but we should be getting back to the topic at hand, which is "PreWrath Overview". Which reminds me... where is Jason? He started this thread. :lol:
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Jason is busy reading the Sign by Robert VanKampen... :wink: I got a PM from him and with my work schedule haven't had the time to answer him. :sad
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lol hey sister. I've read it and re-read it. I'm just not sold. I'll post a few reasons why a little latter.

Jason
PS: I'm still open to the pre-wrath view and I'll get to that as well.
 
Biblical Orthodoxy said:
lol hey sister. I've read it and re-read it. I'm just not sold. I'll post a few reasons why a little latter.

Jason
PS: I'm still open to the pre-wrath view and I'll get to that as well.
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Hey stranger. :P I also, will be looking forward to reading your comments. Personally, I feel Van Kampen doesn't leave too many stones unturned, but it's always good to get another's perspective. I did have to rethink some (but not much) of what he wrote due to the way I have been led to understand Scripture.
 
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