Pre Wrath overview

[Judy]

Feel free to post a rebuttal, but we should be getting back to the topic at hand, which is "PreWrath Overview". Which reminds me... where is Jason? He started this thread. :

Jason is busy reading the Sign by Robert VanKampen... :wink: I got a PM from him and with my work schedule haven't had the time to answer him.

lol hey sister. I've read it and re-read it. I'm just not sold. I'll post a few reasons why a little latter.

Jason
PS: I'm still open to the pre-wrath view and I'll get to that as well.

Hey Jason, I sorry I haven't gotten back to you... I started a new job and the hours are soooooo looooong. :o :-? I only have time to either sleep or eat.. so I alternate days... :
I too look forward to your critic of the The Sign :wink:

 

[PHIL121]

The Great Tribulation is described in Matthew 24:15-28. it is the "abomination of desolation" described in Daniel 11. Whetether it consists of the entire 70th week of Daniel or merely the last half is debatable, but I'm inlined to former view as Daniel makes it clear that the Anti-christ will be in power when he makes the treaty with Israel.

I wasn't very impressed with this website http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm either. First of all, the name made me suspect. Pre-tribbers certainly don't claim the rapture willbe "secret". LaHaye's "Left Behind" novel makes that obvious. The only 'secret' is that "No one shall know the day or the Hour, not even the angels in heaven"; and that is clearly Scriptural. The site goes on (and on...and on :roll: ) to try to say the the Rapture and the Parouisa are the SAME event when there are clearly differences. The most marked is that 1 Thess 5 says that the Lord Believers "in the air" where as references to the Parouisa show Him coming to the Earth.

 

[Vic C.]

The Great Tribulation is described in Matthew 24:15-28. it is the "abomination of desolation" described in Daniel 11. Whetether it consists of the entire 70th week of Daniel or merely the last half is debatable, but I'm inlined to former view as Daniel makes it clear that the Anti-christ will be in power when he makes the treaty with Israel.

Daniel never states this tribulation lasts the entire 70th. week, nor does he say antichrist makes a treaty with Israel.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The word here is confirm. Antichrist could easily just be a witness to this covenant. A minor point, maybe, but if some are looking to the one who actually makes this covenent with Israel, they may be be looking at the wrong person. We really won't be 100% sure until he is revealed. Just thought I would point that out.

I can't really find anywhere in scripture that supports the entire 70th. week as being all Tribulation. The fact that Daniel gives a predetermined number of days overall and Jesus tell us the number of days of the GT will be shortened, leads me to believe the GT is just part of the 70th. week.

I wasn't very impressed with this website http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm either. First of all, the name made me suspect.

I understand where you are coming from. In light of the fact that you already have your our beliefs on End Times events, it can be hard to swallow, or even grasp. But to disregard the many verses and passages he gives, would be throwing out so much Scripture that is so important to End Times.

Pre-tribbers certainly don't claim the rapture willbe "secret". LaHaye's "Left Behind" novel makes that obvious. The only 'secret' is that "No one shall know the day or the Hour, not even the angels in heaven"; and that is clearly Scriptural.

I agree, it is scriptural that no one will know the day or hour, but with the signs that Jesus gives us, it clearly indicates it is possible to know the aprox. timeframe.

I have read the first eight books of the series. It wasn't so obvious to me. While they don't actually come out and say it is a secret rapture, it is clearly implied. It is implied by most who believe and teach Pre Tribulation.

The site goes on (and on...and on :roll: ) to try to say the the Rapture and the Parouisa are the SAME event when there are clearly differences. The most marked is that 1 Thess 5 says that the Lord Believers "in the air" where as references to the Parouisa show Him coming to the Earth.

This probably deserves a thread of it's own, so I won't delve into it here.

one more thing... Do you feel tribulation and persecution against the saints are acts of God or the Adversary?

Peace,
Vic

 

[Solo]

I read the Great Tribulation of occurring after the abomination of desolation takes place. As soon as the son of perdition arises to the top of the heap, he will begin to clear the world of God's children. This is the Great Tribulation. Satan pours out great Tribulation upon the children of God.

Immediately after the Great Tribulation, Jesus will appear and His elect will be gathered from one end of heaven to the other. Isn't it interesting that Paul writes that we will gather together to meet the Lord in the air, and that is where Jesus says that the angels will gather us from.

The wrath of God will be poured out after the Great Tribulation of satan, immediately after the elect are gathered.

 

[PHIL121]

Looking into it further, I see where Lahaye,Scofeld, et al. distinguish the GREAT Tribulation (as opposed to simply the Tribulation) as occuring in the Second half of the 70th week of Daniel. It would probably be best to refer to the 70th week as the "end-times" to avoid such confusion.

Nevertheless, it 's clear the first half of the 70th week will be a time of tribulation what with the seven seals being opened and the seven trumpets blowing.

I've never read any of LaHaye's "left behind" novels; just seen the first two movies. I read his first two "Babylon Rising" novels and found his fiction writting style rather formulaic. Bill Myers wrote an end-times trilogy that I rather enjoyed.

As far as Daniel 9:27, the Hebrew word "gabar" (Strongs 1396) has connotations of might and power associated with it. It seem pretty clear that the Anti-christ is more than a mere witness to the treaty, but is instrumental in creating it.

Further, I see the pre-wrath view as an attempt to simply meld the mid-trib view with the views of the Historical school of Revelation interpretation. I don't see much of a true synthesis taking place; however.

 

[JM]

A few notes:

Pre-wrath is not a pre-trib view because the Church will be on earth during most of the tribulation. I believe it's a post trib view, because the rapture of the saints takes place after the Great Tribulation. This view teaches the Great Tribulation ends just before the Day of the Lord.

The pre-wrath view doesn't teach the imminent return of Christ for His Church. It's not a pure dispensational view either because we get a mix of Jewish history with Church history.

I'll be back when I have more time.

See you soon, Deo valente.

Jason

 

[PHIL121]

Well, the pre-wrath view does believe there is a distinct Church Age, does it not? That would mean it is dispensational.

I did notice on one of those websites posted earlier an bit a verbiage attacking the school of thought that the Seven Letters of Rev 2-3 show the history of the Church Age. I found that rather suprising.

 

[Vic C.]

Bless you all for being able to discuss this in a true loving, Christian fashion. I've stuck with these debates due to the lack of insults and the ability to lay out one's belief without beating up the other person. Good job guys (and Judy).

A few notes:

Pre-wrath is not a pre-trib view because the Church will be on earth during most of the tribulation. I believe it's a post trib view, because the rapture of the saints takes place after the Great Tribulation. This view teaches the Great Tribulation ends just before the Day of the Lord.

Good point Jason. Since we believe the Great Tribulation and The Day of the Lord (God's wrath) are two distinct events and the catching away to be after the GT, post tribulation is one way to look at it. I may posts some verses later in a new thread explaning the seperation.

The pre-wrath view doesn't teach the imminent return of Christ for His Church. It's not a pure dispensational view either because we get a mix of Jewish history with Church history.

We don't believe in imminency mainly because Jesus, Paul and others give us signs that haven't occurred yet. Solo briefly pointed that out in his post above.

About our dispensational view... right, it's not pure. As Phil has pointed out, there is some order (dispensation) to Prewrath but it does take a lot of Jewish history into consideration concerning the timing of events, as it should. Revelation does have a Jewish "flavor' to it and Prewrath relies on much of the OT's prophets for it's doctrine.

I'll be back when I have more time.

See you soon, Deo valente

Jason

Thanks for the warning. :P

BTW, shouldn't that be Dio valente? My Italian is very rusty. 8-)

 

[JM]

The Day of the Lord is the time of God’s wrath which all of the trumpet judgments, it's confusing in light of Matthew 24:21 "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, NOR EVER SHALL BE." the Great Tribulation is a unique time of trouble.

The 70 weeks of Dan. are Jewish history and not Church history. After the first 69 weeks the Messiah was cut off and we know that the Church began less than two months after the Messiah was cut off. The 70th week has remained unfulfilled for nearly 2000 years, the clock has stopped. During this time we have the Church age, Matt. 16:18; Acts 2:47; Acts 15:14; Rom. 11:25; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 1:7; 1 Tim. 3:15-16.

I didn't have time to dig, so don't think I did all the above work on my own. It's a mix of notes taken from the net...I'm at work and trying to give a posts while I'm on lunch.

Peace

 

[Vic C.]

The Day of the Lord is the time of God’s wrath which all of the trumpet judgments, it's confusing in light of Matthew 24:21 "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, NOR EVER SHALL BE." the Great Tribulation is a unique time of trouble.

Jason, I too had trouble with this at first, but then it came to me (in spirit, of course.. sure didn't come to me on my own accord). Once I finally grasped the notion that the GT and Wrath of God were two separated events, it was revealed to me Jesus was correct. (well, Jesus is always correct- :-D ) The GT is man upon man, or antichrist upon man. The world will never see another time of persecution like that against God's chosen. The whole Discourse up to Mat 24:28 is about this persecution from Antichrist.

The unbelieving world however, bear the full force of God's righteous Wrath.

The 70 weeks of Dan. are Jewish history and not Church history. After the first 69 weeks the Messiah was cut off and we know that the Church began less than two months after the Messiah was cut off. The 70th week has remained unfulfilled for nearly 2000 years, the clock has stopped. During this time we have the Church age, Matt. 16:18; Acts 2:47; Acts 15:14; Rom. 11:25; 1 Cor. 12:13; Eph. 1:7; 1 Tim. 3:15-16.

I didn't have time to dig, so don't think I did all the above work on my own. It's a mix of notes taken from the net...I'm at work and trying to give a posts while I'm on lunch.

Peace

:-D
I (we) appreciate you taking the time. Just a quickie on the 70th. week... with me being a bit of a futurist, I don't really see that week as being history, per se.

 

[Solo]

It is interesting that many believe that the Great Tribulation is the time when God pours his wrath out upon the earth, and since they say it is his wrath the Church will not be on the earth at that time. Some very simple basic understandings of the Word must be reached before the truth is revealed.

First the wrath of God being poured out on the wicked is different from the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is satan's last attempt to persecute God's chosen (Many are called, few are chosen) both of the Jews and Believers in Christ Jesus. Since it is his last attempt to persecute God's chosen it will be greater than at any other time.

Jesus says that the Great Tribulation will be unlike anytime in the past, and it will not be like anytime in the future. God's wrath was poured out on the world once before when eight people were saved from the most cataclismic occurance ever. How does the Great Tribulation beat this occurrence if it means the wrath of God? It doesn't mean the wrath of God. The Great Tribulation is the worst that the chosen have been persecuted by satan of all time, past, present, or future. After satan's Great Tribulation on the Chosen of God, Jesus returns to redeem those that are dead in Christ and those that remain. After this, the wrath of God is poured out on the unbelieving, just like in Noah's time. The chosen are pulled out and then the unbelieving are destroyed.

 

[PHIL121]

Matthew 24:15 links the Great Tribulation to the 70th week of Daniel. While the "abomination of desolation" occured under Antiochus Epiphanes, Jesus makes it clear the act will be repeated in the future, and this will mark the begining of the Great Tribulation.

 

[Solo]

Matthew 24:15 links the Great Tribulation to the 70th week of Daniel. While the "abomination of desolation" occured under Antiochus Epiphanes, Jesus makes it clear the act will be repeated in the future, and this will mark the begining of the Great Tribulation.

I agree that the abomination of desolation will begin the Great Tribulation. Antiochus Epephanes was a picture of the son of perdition. Perhaps Epiphenes was the devil's practice session, and him thinking that he could push God's timing.........

Fat chance.

 

[Darrell dunn]

God had a covenant with the jews for saventy weeks, The first 69 were fulfilled with the death of Christ.

The 70th week will be between God and the Jews.

Rev. 7:4-8 is the covenant being confirmed with 144,000 Jews.
Dan.11:28, 30and 31 says that the AC is against the Holy covenant
.
V31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

V35 even to the time of the end;

V37 neither shall he regard the God of his fathers.

V40 time of the end

Ch 12;1 and at that time----------------;and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time;

This is the great tribulations Mat. 24

The AC rules till mid 70th week then the wrath of God comes on the world.

Rev.8:12 the days are shortened and then the angel says, WOE, WOE, WOE
because of the sounding of the last three trumpets, This is the great tribulations.

 

[Vic C.]

Darrell, God's wrath begins at Rev 6:17

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This clearly puts all of the trumpets in God's wrath.

If we can agree that Matthew 24:29 and Rev 6:12 are the same event, which I believe they are, we have a serious problem with the timing you laid out for us. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:29 that the Tribulation is over. So knowing that, all the events that take place after Rev 6:12 are something other than the Great Tribulation. The only other event we have to deal with at this point is God's Wrath, the Day of the Lord. Rev 6:17 clearly states this.

 

[PHIL121]

Now here's one of God's little miracles....

I looked up Rev 6:12 after vic cited it; and lo and behold the next verse is the one Jimmy Carter quoted on Larry King Live tonight as one he doesn't believe is literal ...."stars from heaven falling from heavean...as figs from a fig tree".

I wonder if the former President has heard of the Comet Shoemaker -Levy that impacted Jupiter (in pieces) a few years ago?

Or if he knows DNA is made of amino acids, for that matter? :D

 

[Vic C.]

Now here's one of God's little miracles....

I looked up Rev 6:12 after vic cited it; and lo and behold the next verse is the one Jimmy Carter quoted on Larry King Live tonight as one he doesn't believe is literal ...."stars from heaven falling from heavean...as figs from a fig tree".

I wonder if the former President has heard of the Comet Shoemaker -Levy that impacted Jupiter (in pieces) a few years ago?

Or if he knows DNA is made of amino acids, for that matter? :D

:o Mr. Peanut said that? He's the one who denounced the SBC because he thinks they are too conservative. :

That's funny that he would cite that passage. 8-)

 

[Solo]

Now here's one of God's little miracles....

I looked up Rev 6:12 after vic cited it; and lo and behold the next verse is the one Jimmy Carter quoted on Larry King Live tonight as one he doesn't believe is literal ...."stars from heaven falling from heavean...as figs from a fig tree".

I wonder if the former President has heard of the Comet Shoemaker -Levy that impacted Jupiter (in pieces) a few years ago?

Or if he knows DNA is made of amino acids, for that matter? :D

:o Mr. Peanut said that? He's the one who denounced the SBC because he thinks they are too conservative. :

That's funny that he would cite that passage. 8-)

Mr. Jimmy Carter left our SBC because he was left of the mainstream within the SBC. I heard tell that Mr. Bill Clinton also claimed to be a SBC boy, but I would bet that he was even more left than Mr. Jimmy.

Mr. Jimmy left because he did not like the changes that were made to the Baptist Faith and Message statement in 2000. During the liberal attempt to takeover the SBC beginning in the early '60s when the now 77 year old Baptist Faith and Message declaration was changed in 1963 to give sway to those who wanted to cast doubt on the Word of God. The following changes were made that gave Mr. Jimmy and other liberal Southern Baptist theologions heartburn to the point that they left the SBC.


Considerable attention was focused on our revisions in Article 1, "The Scriptures." The 1963 version stated that the Bible "is the record of God's revelation of Himself to man." We removed the word "record" in order to remove confusion about the nature of God's revelation in the Bible.

The Bible is not merely a record of revelation. It is revelation itself. The Bible is not a fallible witness to the revelation of God. It is God's perfectly inspired Word. The written Word testifies of the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ, as our Lord himself explained.

We stated clearly that "all Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is himself the focus of divine revelation." This replaces the language stating that Jesus Christ is "the criterion by which the Bible is to be interpreted." Why? Simply put, because 30 years of abuses and attacks upon the integrity of the Bible made clear that some were using this language to deny the truthfulness and authority of the Word of God.

Some who have taught in our seminaries over the past several decades claimed that this allowed them to deny the truthfulness of whatever biblical passages did not rise to their standard of Jesus' intention. Professors and pastors have denied that God ordered the conquest of Canaan, tested Abraham in the sacrifice of Isaac or inspired the Apostle Paul when he wrote about the family or roles in the church.

One messenger tragically stated that the Bible is "just a book." Mainstream Southern Baptists -- and Christians of all denominations -- know better.

Retrieved from http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=13950

 

[Darrell dunn]

Darrell, God's wrath begins at Rev 6:17

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This clearly puts all of the trumpets in God's wrath.

If we can agree that Matthew 24:29 and Rev 6:12 are the same event, which I believe they are, we have a serious problem with the timing you laid out for us. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:29 that the Tribulation is over. So knowing that, all the events that take place after Rev 6:12 are something other than the Great Tribulation. The only other event we have to deal with at this point is God's Wrath, the Day of the Lord. Rev 6:17 clearly states this.

Matt.24:29, Even the writers of the KJ realized that Jesus statement here starts a new subject, therefore a new paragraph.

Jesus gave Matt.24 as a summary, like a lawyer concluding his case. Not a detailed step by step.The bookof Rev. is a step by step. Thats why every thing is numbered 1 2 3

The word tribulation is not the same as Gods wrath, or the Great tribulation.

And would you not call the events in Matt.24:1-7 tribulations.

Matt.24:29 dose match Rev.6:12-17. also Rev12:9.

Rev. 6:12 comes at the beginning of the wrath, Matt.24:15-21 comes at the mid. point of tribulations , And begins the Great Tribulation, also Rev8: 13 WOE, WOE, WOE.

In Christ Love.

 

[JM]

Thanks guys, I'll think a little more and post again in this topic soon.