sheshisown
Member
- May 25, 2008
- 1,364
- 0
Hi my brothers and sisters in Jesus~
Recently I have been considering the Pre-Wrath rapture, instead of the theology I have been taught for Pre-Tribulation rapture. Foremost in my heart in starting this thread is to make the strong point that thou as believers we may not agree regarding these positions, still, there is no division since there is no effect upon ones salvation either way. Although as some Pastors put it~ SOMEBODY will be surprised. :scatter: :crazyeyes:
Previously, I have held the Pre-Tribulation rapture position~ and its really comfortable feeling~ ya know? To start asking the Lord if I will see the Antichrist's appearance, and my loved ones die for their faith, my grand babies maybe, it's difficult to say the least. Still, I am willing to walk thru any fire the Lord leads me into because He will be in it with us! OH YEAH! I simply do not desire to be standing on teaching (nor teaching others to do so) that may slip out from under our feet when The Day arrives. My heart is to be faithful~ and my life was no bed of roses before I found the Lord, however I am a weak soldier when it comes to my children.
From my limited understanding I have read that neither position is considered defensible ultimately, that a dogmatic case cannot be made scripturally for either side. Mid-Tribulational believers are not without a voice here either, as you may have information unseen by those who are concentrating their research elsewhere to support their view.
Now I am very new to these subjects and I know some of you are not and have good arguments on both sides. I am simply going to study the answers I am (hoping to receive) to the questions I throw out, and let you discuss each other’s position weakness and strengths; or whatever is relevant to this topic. I am also hoping others will have more questions so we may get a good close look at both positions clearly. Lastly, please try to keep the cookies on the bottom shelf so all may partake~ in other words, don’t get over complicated in your posts. (And this shorty thanks ya’ll)
!:
First of all there is the fact that the Lord has not promised believers whether they are Jew or Gentile rescue out of, but rather protection through tribulation.
Second the Lord has promised believers rescue from His Wrath.
***Now it seems to be all a matter of timing~ not if~ but WHEN will the wrath of God begin, and when are the saints present in heaven in the book of revelation?
From Revelation 6+7 it sounds like the saints have arrived in heaven just after the fifth seal is broken in the scroll held by the Lamb that was slain;
Rev. 6:
8: And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Is this the arrival of Antichrist? (I do not adhere to any symbolic meanings for these descriptions, because the power of God’s prophecy is in His ability to detail actual events unfulfilled.)
9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Question: These could be those believers martyred thru the generations of believers until the end, yes?
12: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Question: Is this the beginning of the cosmic destruction caused by the Wrath of God at the opening of the sixth seal?
13: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Question: The make-up of this group is interesting, we have kings, great men, the rich, captains, mighty men, freemen, and slaves. The owners of the earth and of mankind?
Rev. 7: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Question: From what I have heard in other posts on the board is that the wrath of God is not poured out until the 11th chapter, at or before that moment the rapture will take place. Am I correct in this assumption? If so, who are these innumerable multitudes of every nation, family, people, and language, who proclaim their salvation both to God and to the Lamb?
9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11: And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12: Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Question: So does the Great Tribulation end in this chapter?
Thanks everybody who posts adding to our readiness. For surely we see The Day approaching.
As we encourage one another in the love and truth of Christ~ :-D bonnie
Recently I have been considering the Pre-Wrath rapture, instead of the theology I have been taught for Pre-Tribulation rapture. Foremost in my heart in starting this thread is to make the strong point that thou as believers we may not agree regarding these positions, still, there is no division since there is no effect upon ones salvation either way. Although as some Pastors put it~ SOMEBODY will be surprised. :scatter: :crazyeyes:
Previously, I have held the Pre-Tribulation rapture position~ and its really comfortable feeling~ ya know? To start asking the Lord if I will see the Antichrist's appearance, and my loved ones die for their faith, my grand babies maybe, it's difficult to say the least. Still, I am willing to walk thru any fire the Lord leads me into because He will be in it with us! OH YEAH! I simply do not desire to be standing on teaching (nor teaching others to do so) that may slip out from under our feet when The Day arrives. My heart is to be faithful~ and my life was no bed of roses before I found the Lord, however I am a weak soldier when it comes to my children.
From my limited understanding I have read that neither position is considered defensible ultimately, that a dogmatic case cannot be made scripturally for either side. Mid-Tribulational believers are not without a voice here either, as you may have information unseen by those who are concentrating their research elsewhere to support their view.
Now I am very new to these subjects and I know some of you are not and have good arguments on both sides. I am simply going to study the answers I am (hoping to receive) to the questions I throw out, and let you discuss each other’s position weakness and strengths; or whatever is relevant to this topic. I am also hoping others will have more questions so we may get a good close look at both positions clearly. Lastly, please try to keep the cookies on the bottom shelf so all may partake~ in other words, don’t get over complicated in your posts. (And this shorty thanks ya’ll)
!:First of all there is the fact that the Lord has not promised believers whether they are Jew or Gentile rescue out of, but rather protection through tribulation.
Second the Lord has promised believers rescue from His Wrath.
***Now it seems to be all a matter of timing~ not if~ but WHEN will the wrath of God begin, and when are the saints present in heaven in the book of revelation?
From Revelation 6+7 it sounds like the saints have arrived in heaven just after the fifth seal is broken in the scroll held by the Lamb that was slain;
Rev. 6:
8: And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Is this the arrival of Antichrist? (I do not adhere to any symbolic meanings for these descriptions, because the power of God’s prophecy is in His ability to detail actual events unfulfilled.)
9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Question: These could be those believers martyred thru the generations of believers until the end, yes?
12: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Question: Is this the beginning of the cosmic destruction caused by the Wrath of God at the opening of the sixth seal?
13: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Question: The make-up of this group is interesting, we have kings, great men, the rich, captains, mighty men, freemen, and slaves. The owners of the earth and of mankind?
Rev. 7: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Question: From what I have heard in other posts on the board is that the wrath of God is not poured out until the 11th chapter, at or before that moment the rapture will take place. Am I correct in this assumption? If so, who are these innumerable multitudes of every nation, family, people, and language, who proclaim their salvation both to God and to the Lamb?
9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11: And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12: Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Question: So does the Great Tribulation end in this chapter?
Thanks everybody who posts adding to our readiness. For surely we see The Day approaching.
As we encourage one another in the love and truth of Christ~ :-D bonnie
