Predestination and Calvinism

[Chopper]

I'd like to answer the original question of the OP...."Why do you think Calvinism and predestination verse freewill and a persons ability to choose has caused such problems?"

Mainly, it's because John Calvin did not address the fact that, "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

John Calvin, for whatever reason, focused entirely on Ephesians....
Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."

And.
Romans 9:10 "And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory"

So, predestination is correct, and free will is correct when it comes to the "General Call of the Gospel". God, before the foundations of the world were laid, chose certain men to represent Him in every generation called a Remnant. They did not have a choice. BUT, those who come to Jesus thru the General Call, do have a choice called free will.

If you wish for more information on my theology of Election and the General Call, please ask.

 

[ivdavid]

This is a total misunderstanding of what I posted, if you could seriously ask me where in scripture do we find satan believing in Christ for his salvation.

It seems there has been a misunderstanding.

Even satan BELIEVES in Jesus

Does Satan believe according to the word translated "believe" in John 3:16?

And yes, that type of belief, as satan believes, does not save.

It's more of that belief like satan had in Jesus. Satan believed in Him too and His ability to keep His promises on the basis of Jesus' nature and abilities, but satan did not believe in the sense of what I wrote above.

When I read the phrases "satan Believes In Jesus", "John 3:16", "does not save" - the context does seem to be that of "believing in Christ unto salvation". And while you have showed that such a "believing" is not sufficient to save, my end-objective is to show the invalidity of the very phrase of "satan believing in Jesus".

The "believe" in your no. 2 below is a lesser belief.

2. to Believe in/on/upon somebody : is to hold as True, the sufficiency of that person to fulfill what is expected of him or what he has promised, on the basis of that person's nature and abilities.

To believe in Jesus means to understand what He intends, to agree with it, to adhere to His teachings, to be ready to follow them, and Him.

I suppose the working definition I'd presented does not carry the same force of will and reliance that I'd intended in the phrase "to hold". Also, in the case of believing in Christ, I'd intended equal emphasis on the fulfillment and not merely a mental assent of sufficiency as it seems you've perceived it as.
Would it work better if I rephrased the working definition to -
2. to Believe in/on/upon Christ : is to rest upon as True, the fulfillment of all that Christ has stated/promised, which He is sufficient to do, given His nature and abilities.

As per this, I hope we can avoid stating "satan believes in Christ" - for 1. this phrase itself never occurs in Scriptures, 2. satan's opposing will is captured in that he never rests upon any truth, at best he may merely spitefully have knowledge of it, 3. It avoids redefining "believing" to be synonymous with obedience when they are 2 separate concepts, one implying the other though.

I could have faith that Jesus is able to save me.
But not believe in Him so as to follow Him.

If your 1st statement is mere mental assent, then the word "faith" is misused there - you rather mean, "I have knowledge that Jesus is able to save me." But to have faith in Jesus to save you is to rest upon His promise to do so, which necessarily entails your willingness to act according to such faith, by abiding in His word and following Him.
As you can see, there is no need to redefine "believing in Christ" to capture this concept of obedience when anyway it is implied as a necessary but independent effect in the very definition of "having faith in Christ".

Also, I think you believe that a person who is justified by faith can still end up un-justified because of unbelieving - if that's not the case, Rom 3:26 shows one with faith is justified, Rom 8:30 shows all who are justified are glorified, and John 3:18 shows that all who do not believe, perish and are not glorified, therein raising a contradiction as to how one may have faith and still not believe. Of course, if you do hold that God reverses His justification of people based on their acts of disobedience, we'll have to discuss that before we get here.

 

[JLB]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

First, I find your arrogance not needed.
Once again your universalism sneaks in.

The any here are the elect. The any here are those predestined. All the elect, predestined will reach repentance.

So any really doesn't mean "any", but really means only the elect?


Which would also mean, that we should "interpret" whoever, in John 3:16, the same way.

For God so loved the world elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever [among the elect] believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Am I understanding you correctly? Is this the way you see that these scriptures should be interpreted?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Romans 9:10 "And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory"

It seems the context here in Romans 9, is the election as to seed group [lineage] that the Messiah will come through and not who will be elected to salvation and who is elected to eternal damnation.

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man,even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” Romans 9:1-13


...that the purpose of God according to election might stand.

The purpose is Christ.
The election context here is who the lineage of Christ is.

That is the context through verse 13.

Verse 14 begins a new thought, now that He has established the election of lineage, he goes on to show that God is Just in this election of Israel, even though Israel rejected the Messiah.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Verse 14...


The Point: Verse's 1-13 should be seen as election for purpose [the seed group to bring forth the Messiah] and not election for salvation.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

In a previous post I said there is no debate here. Biblical predestination speaks of God fulfilling His promises to Abraham, It has nothing to do with God choosing to save some people and not save others before the foundation of the world. That is the Reformed doctrine of Predestination. That doctrine is built on passages of Scripture that have been taken out of context. If one reads the passages that deal with predestination in context it is quite clear that they are spoken to or about the Jews. The passage in Ephesians 1 is about the Jews. Paul is given what is known as a Hebraism, it is a praise to God. In Romans 9 Paul is addressing Jewish believers about the promises that God made to Abraham. Romans 9 is an explanation of Romans 8:28-30. All through the Scriptures predestination is speaking about the Jews. It's "NOT" about Gentiles being chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world. All we need to do is read the passages in "CONTEXT"

 

[JLB]

In a previous post I said there is no debate here. Biblical predestination speaks of God fulfilling His promises to Abraham, It has nothing to do with God choosing to save some people and not save others before the foundation of the world. That is the Reformed doctrine of Predestination. That doctrine is built on passages of Scripture that have been taken out of context. If one reads the passages that deal with predestination in context it is quite clear that they are spoken to or about the Jews. The passage in Ephesians 1 is about the Jews. Paul is given what is known as a Hebraism, it is a praise to God. In Romans 9 Paul is addressing Jewish believers about the promises that God made to Abraham. Romans 9 is an explanation of Romans 8:28-30. All through the Scriptures predestination is speaking about the Jews. It's "NOT" about Gentiles being chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world. All we need to do is read the passages in "CONTEXT"

I would agree on some points, you have made here, but the general statement you made here, that says...It's "NOT" about Gentiles being chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world.

I agree, if I understand you correctly.

But at the same time, it is about Gentiles.

Biblical predestination speaks of God fulfilling His promises to Abraham, It has nothing to do with God choosing to save some people and not save others before the foundation of the world.

Agreed

In Romans 9 Paul is addressing Jewish believers about the promises that God made to Abraham. Romans 9 is an explanation of Romans 8:28-30. All through the Scriptures predestination is speaking about the Jews. It's "NOT" about Gentiles being chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world. All we need to do is read the passages in "CONTEXT"

The phrase "it's not about Gentiles", could be misunderstood.

I wish you would clarify, even rephrase this a little, since Abraham was a gentile, and those who are of the faith of Abraham, are his sons.

In addition, Paul clearly portrays the incident of Abraham, obeying God's Voice to get out of his country and his father's house as foreshadowing God justifying the Gentiles by faith.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9

Abraham being the gentile to whom the Gospel was preached, indicating a repentance from our old life, to that of following the Lord, and living by faith.

Living by faith meaning: Obeying His voice.



JLB

 

[childeye]

The Reformed doctrine of Predestination argues that individual people were chosen to be saved before time began and that nothing can change that. Some who hold that position say that God actually predestined everything that ever happens. Biblical predestination has nothing to do with these ideas.

This is why I said predestination is problematic. I'm referring to semantics. Some people describe what is happening in time as people choosing their own path by their own freewill and receiving their just rewards in accordance to their freely made choices. Others see it as God sifting the wheat and refining the gold through a process of exalting and humbling and freewill is an illusion. I am of that persuasion. Paul called it a race that needed to be run. I'm sure you're aware of this scripture, Isaiah 46:10.

Does God designate individuals to be saved from the beginning? Psalm 139:16. Revelation 17:8. There is a book of life that implies that He does. Can this be changed? According to revelation 3:5, Jesus has the authority to blot a name out of the book of life. Whether anyone's name gets blotted out remains to be seen, but he can do it. Hence there is a spirit of the fear of God. That's why I said predestination is problematic. Since the Word has entered the very creation that was created through him, then that implies the power to recreate from inside of time. But then semantic confusion is unavoidable since if it was predestined that what was destined was alterable, then it wasn't exactly predestined unless you're referring to it being alterable, and we don't exactly know whether it actually is, since Jesus holds the book.

What is certain, is that the race will be run. The fastest to the slowest are already at the starting line, but this will only be made apparent at the finish of the race. The fact that the Word of creation enters the creation, creates the phenomenon that many of the first shall be last and visa versa, indicating that God judges according to a different standard, one of humility. I personally believe that for the sake of vanity we're not meant to know.

 

[Butch5]

I would agree on some points, you have made here, but the general statement you made here, that says...It's "NOT" about Gentiles being chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world.

I agree, if I understand you correctly.

But at the same time, it is about Gentiles.





Agreed




The phrase "it's not about Gentiles", could be misunderstood.

I wish you would clarify, even rephrase this a little, since Abraham was a gentile, and those who are of the faith of Abraham, are his sons.

In addition, Paul clearly portrays the incident of Abraham, obeying God's Voice to get out of his country and his father's house as foreshadowing God justifying the Gentiles by faith.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9

Abraham being the gentile to whom the Gospel was preached, indicating a repentance from our old life, to that of following the Lord, and living by faith.

Living by faith meaning: Obeying His voice.



JLB


My statement was in the context of the Reformed doctrine of Predestination that says God chose which individuals would be saved. Those who hold the Reformed idea apply it to Christians today, the majority of which are Gentiles. Biblical predestination is based on this.

14 And the LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are-- northward, southward, eastward, and westward;
15 "for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.
16 "And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered.
17 "Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you." (Gen. 13:14-17 NKJ)

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.
2 "And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly."
3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying:
4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations.
6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you.
7 "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
8 "Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Gen. 17:1-8 NKJ)

This is the source of Biblical predestination. God made these promises to Abraham. He predetermined {predestined) that He would make Abraham's seed great. God predetermined that Abraham would have a son, and then gave him the son He promised in a miraculous way. Isaac is the child of promise. Then Isaac had sons and God had predetermined to use Jacob and not Esau. This flows all the way down to Christ who Paul said is the "Seed" to which God ultimately made the promise.

16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 NKJ)

 

[Butch5]

This is why I said predestination is problematic. I'm referring to semantics. Some people describe what is happening in time as people choosing their own path by their own freewill and receiving their just rewards in accordance to their freely made choices. Others see it as God sifting the wheat and refining the gold through a process of exalting and humbling and freewill is an illusion. I am of that persuasion. Paul called it a race that needed to be run. I'm sure you're aware of this scripture, Isaiah 46:10.

Does God designate individuals to be saved from the beginning? Psalm 139:16. Revelation 17:8. There is a book of life that implies that He does. Can this be changed? According to revelation 3:5, Jesus has the authority to blot a name out of the book of life. Whether anyone's name gets blotted out remains to be seen, but he can do it. Hence there is a spirit of the fear of God. That's why I said predestination is problematic. Since the Word has entered the very creation that was created through him, then that implies the power to recreate from inside of time. But then semantic confusion is unavoidable since if it was predestined that what was destined was alterable, then it wasn't exactly predestined unless you're referring to it being alterable, and we don't exactly know whether it actually is, since Jesus holds the book.

What is certain, is that the race will be run. The fastest to the slowest are already at the starting line, but this will only be made apparent at the finish of the race. The fact that the Word of creation enters the creation, creates the phenomenon that many of the first shall be last and visa versa. I personally believe that for the sake of vanity we're not meant to know.

As I said I don't hold the Reformed view of Predestination. As I see it it has nothing at all to do with one's free will. It solely relates to the promises that God made to Abraham. I submit that it has nothing to do with God choosing to save individuals. Even the passages the are quoted to support this doctrine don't say that God chooses individuals to be saved. That idea is drawn from inference. In Romans 9 Jacob is chosen of Esau for what? To be saved? No. The elder shall serve the younger. In Ephesians 1 they were chosen for what? To be saved? No, to walk blameless before God. Neither passage says that they were chosen to be saved.

Again, I submit that Biblical predestination has nothing to do with the ideas that are present by the Reformed doctrine of Predestination.

 

[childeye]

As I said I don't hold the Reformed view of Predestination. As I see it it has nothing at all to do with one's free will. It solely relates to the promises that God made to Abraham. I submit that it has nothing to do with God choosing to save individuals. Even the passages the are quoted to support this doctrine don't say that God chooses individuals to be saved. That idea is drawn from inference. In Romans 9 Jacob is chosen of Esau for what? To be saved? No. The elder shall serve the younger. In Ephesians 1 they were chosen for what? To be saved? No, to walk blameless before God. Neither passage says that they were chosen to be saved.

Again, I submit that Biblical predestination has nothing to do with the ideas that are present by the Reformed doctrine of Predestination.

I don't know what reformed doctrine of predestination is other than what you say it is. You say it is drawn from inference, yet scripture speaks of a book of life with Individual names written in it. How do you interpret what this book of life is referring to?

 

[ivdavid]

The Point: Verse's 1-13 should be seen as election for purpose [the seed group to bring forth the Messiah] and not election for salvation.

Romans 9:3 begins this topic and it is about salvation. In Romans 9:6, he defends the jews being accursed from Christ as still not the failure of God's word to them. He goes on to elaborate on this defense through the next couple of chapters.

Paul begins explaining that they are not all Israel who are of Israel, by explaining God's sovereignty in electing this real remnant according to His grace. These are verses on salvation as seen in Romans 9:22, Romans 9:27 etc. - which then leads on to how exactly the non-elect jews missed out on Salvation as stated through Romans 10:1 to Romans 11:1. Paul reiterates the same defense he upheld in Romans 9:6 again in Romans 11:2 and brings it full circle on the purpose of election of grace from Romans 9:11 to Romans 11:5 - to save an elect remnant to whom the promises were and consequently in whom His word had not failed. The wisdom of the same is explored from Romans 11:7 which again pertains to salvation as seen in Romans 11:11, concluding upon the plan of their complete salvation in Romans 11:26.

This is a mountain of scriptural reference to the very concept of salvation - and how God's purpose of election is to that end. Besides, an explanation of lineage does no justice to the points raised immediately before and after, not to mention the strong continuous reference to salvation right through these 3 chapters.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Why do you think Calvinism and predestination verse freewill and a persons ability to choose has caused such problems?

Cause it's not one or the other, it is both. God knew he was planting a field (predestined). There are those who will grow into righteousness. What I mean by that is, those who are drawn to the light (God).....will grow in his light.(Freewill)

 

[Chopper]

It seems the context here in Romans 9, is the election as to seed group [lineage] that the Messiah will come through and not who will be elected to salvation and who is elected to eternal damnation.

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man,even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” Romans 9:1-13


...that the purpose of God according to election might stand.

The purpose is Christ.
The election context here is who the lineage of Christ is.

That is the context through verse 13.

Verse 14 begins a new thought, now that He has established the election of lineage, he goes on to show that God is Just in this election of Israel, even though Israel rejected the Messiah.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Verse 14...


The Point: Verse's 1-13 should be seen as election for purpose [the seed group to bring forth the Messiah] and not election for salvation.



JLB

Your last statement is true for both of your points. I agree with what you have posted. Lets not isolate the seed group to bring forth the Messiah as the only teaching of these verses. Of course Jesus had to come thru an elect line. That was the main reason for predestination and election. It was to bring forth the Remnant of God in which, in due time, the Messiah would be born. Election continued on thru the Disciples even to today.

 

[JLB]

Romans 9:3 begins this topic and it is about salvation.

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.


The topic is Paul's great sorrow for his countrymen after the flesh, because they are the chosen seed group through which the Messiah came.

If you read these verse's it's easy to see that election concerns the purpose of God.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man,even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” Romans 9:10-13

Paul reiterates over and over, this simple truth: It's not just the offspring of Abraham, because Abraham had two children...

It's not just the offspring of Isaac, because Isaac had two children...

The child of promise was Isaac, not Ishmael, because God chose Issac.

This predestination, and the choosing of Isaac, was for the purpose of God; Christ, and the bloodline He would descend from.

If it was about choosing Isaac for salvation and Ishmael to be cursed for eternal damnation, then why would the Lord say...

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. Genesis 17:20


Does that sound Ismael was chosen and predestined for hell?



JLB

 

[childeye]

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
They did not have a choice. BUT, those who come to Jesus thru the General Call, do have a choice called free will.
.

I have a few questions. What is God's end purpose of election according to scripture? How do these scriptures fit in with what you describe as the general call being a matter of freewill?
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

[Chopper]

In a previous post I said there is no debate here. Biblical predestination speaks of God fulfilling His promises to Abraham, It has nothing to do with God choosing to save some people and not save others before the foundation of the world. That is the Reformed doctrine of Predestination. That doctrine is built on passages of Scripture that have been taken out of context. If one reads the passages that deal with predestination in context it is quite clear that they are spoken to or about the Jews. The passage in Ephesians 1 is about the Jews. Paul is given what is known as a Hebraism, it is a praise to God. In Romans 9 Paul is addressing Jewish believers about the promises that God made to Abraham. Romans 9 is an explanation of Romans 8:28-30. All through the Scriptures predestination is speaking about the Jews. It's "NOT" about Gentiles being chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world. All we need to do is read the passages in "CONTEXT"

If you read the full context, you'll see that the Gentiles are included, as Hosea prophesies. Romans nine is speaking about the Jews and in fact is God's instruction on predestination. It has many instructions in those verses, not just one.

 

[JLB]

Your last statement is true for both of your points. I agree with what you have posted. Lets not isolate the seed group to bring forth the Messiah as the only teaching of these verses. Of course Jesus had to come thru an elect line. That was the main reason for predestination and election. It was to bring forth the Remnant of God in which, in due time, the Messiah would be born. Election continued on thru the Disciples even to today.

Ok, I won't isolate the seed group as being the only topic of Romans 9, as I see beyond verse 13 the language and topic seems to shift.

With Paul and his vast knowledge of these things, he could spend 5 chapters on one point and we wouldn't have a clue as to what he was talking about, concerning this subject.

I do expect to hear more from you about this subject as you have a vast amount of time and study concerning this, and your views seem to be that from a personal study you have done yourself, rather than what was spoon fed by those who teach pure Calvinism.

Your doctrine about the predestined and the general call is interesting.


Thanks for sharing.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

I have a few questions. What is God's end purpose of election according to scripture? How do these scriptures fit in with what you describe as the general call being a matter of freewill?
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The purpose of election? If you study the old Testament closely, especially the Judges, you'll see an up and down relationship of Israel to Jehovah their Elohim. You will also see those of whom God chose to liberate sinful Israel from their oppressors, namely the Judges. since God knew that all of mankind would not all be faithful to His Commands, He established a Remnant of followers who would love Him and obey Him. These people are the Elect of God.

 

[Chopper]

Ok, I won't isolate the seed group as being the only topic of Romans 9, as I see beyond verse 13 the language and topic seems to shift.

With Paul and his vast knowledge of these things, he could spend 5 chapters on one point and we wouldn't have a clue as to what he was talking about, concerning this subject.

I do expect to hear more from you about this subject as you have a vast amount of time and study concerning this, and your views seem to be that from a personal study you have done yourself, rather than what was spoon fed by those who teach pure Calvinism.

Your doctrine about the predestined and the general call is interesting.


Thanks for sharing.


JLB

Thank you my old and one of my favorite friends. I mean that....You and I are very close in what we believe. You are one person who I respect because of your knowledge of Election. I think we both agree that Calvin was absolutely wrong about "Limited Atonement". Christ's atonement was and is available to all who call upon the Lord for Salvation, not just the Elect.

 

[Cygnus]

Did I say they weren't?

Why so many little posts?
I have to do this with DIFFERENT posters because I'm in a different time zone.
Why do you do this??

W

Sounds like you said they wern't.

You posted "See, you're view of God is one of twisted beliefs. God is a JUST God.
A JUST God will not arbitrarily send ANYONE to hell, unless it is by their own choice."

My verse showed everyone already stands condemned....nothing arbitrary about that.