Predestination and Calvinism

[childeye]

Many = those that receive Him
of their own free will.

Two simple questions. You have received Jesus of your own freewill. Why could you receive him of your own freewill, and why could you not deny Him of your own freewill? It should be the same answer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Two simple questions. You have received Jesus of your own freewill. Why could you receive him of your own freewill, and why could you not deny Him of your own freewill? It should be the same answer.

Those who accept do so by their own free will.
Those who deny God, deny Him of their own free will.
We are given the choice as evidenced even before the N.T.
Psalm 119:30
Deuteronomy 30:19


W

 

[Butch5]

I'd like to add that it took 1,500 years for Mr. Calvin to come up with this concept. It was never contemplated before this time and was turned down as heresy in the late 1600's by the Synod of Jerusalem.

Wondering

Actually, it was around long before Calvin. It's just that the church rejected it. Augustine was the one who postulated it and was influenced by Stoicism. Calvin too was into Stoicism. As I understand it the Stoics believed in Determinism, that all things are fated to happen. While the Greeks and Romans attributed this to fate, Augustine Attributed it to God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, it was around long before Calvin. It's just that the church rejected it. Augustine was the one who postulated it and was influenced by Stoicism. Calvin too was into Stoicism. As I understand it the Stoics believed in Determinism, that all things are fated to happen. While the Greeks and Romans attributed this to fate, Augustine Attributed it to God.

Gosh Butch 5
I know Augustine gets blamed for this, but it's not so. He believed in predestination not double predestination as Calvin did. I could post it but it's really late here - I'm in a different time zone.

If you care to check it out, otherwise I'll post tomorrow.
The CC accepts predestination but not as Calvin understood it.

Wondering

 

[Butch5]

Gosh Butch 5
I know Augustine gets blamed for this, but it's not so. He believed in predestination not double predestination as Calvin did. I could post it but it's really late here - I'm in a different time zone.

If you care to check it out, otherwise I'll post tomorrow.
The CC accepts predestination but not as Calvin understood it.

Wondering

I'm aware of the differences. My point was that the idea that God predetermined all things is not what the Scriptures teach. As I said, 'Calvin was into Stoicism,' too. If one already believes in Fatalism it's not hard to see how they went from it being fate to God.

 

[childeye]

Those who accept do so by their own free will.
Those who deny God, deny Him of their own free will.
We are given the choice as evidenced even before the N.T.
Psalm 119:30

This does not actually answer why you have chosen the way you did. I someone wanted to hear about Jesus, and asked you why you believe, how would you answer?

Psalm 119 does not say we are given a choice. Nor does it answer why a person chooses the good path, nor how they recognize it as good. Deuteronomy 30;19 does show that we are given a choice of life and death, a blessing or a curse according to whether we keep the commandments or not. It is therefore an ultimatum that says do these things or be cursed and die. But the law is given only to condemn all men as sinners due to weakness of the flesh, which is why we also must confess we need a savior. Romans 8:2. Romans 7:24 . So speaking for myself, I have in part received Christ even because I confess that I do not have a freewill to keep the law, given the choice.

Psalm 119 recognizes our weakness of flesh and dependence upon God.
32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.

33 Teach me, O Lord, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.

34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.

38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.

39 Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.

40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

 

[childeye]

I'm aware of the differences. My point was that the idea that God predetermined all things is not what the Scriptures teach. As I said, 'Calvin was into Stoicism,' too. If one already believes in Fatalism it's not hard to see how they went from it being fate to God.

Predestination is somewhat problematic in that the Word of creation entered the creation created through Him, and has power to alter what otherwise would have been.

 

[Butch5]



Predestination is somewhat problematic in that the Word of creation entered the creation created through Him, and has power to alter what otherwise would have been.

I don't find it problematic at all. That's because I don't hold the Reformed doctrine. I understand predestination as it is presented in the Bible.

 

[childeye]



I don't find it problematic at all. That's because I don't hold the Reformed doctrine. I understand predestination as it is presented in the Bible.

I don't know what reformed doctrine means to you. But it appears from scripture that God can create things from the midst of creation, and not just from the beginning.
Isaiah 48:4-10King James Version (KJV)
4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;

5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.

8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

 

[Butch5]

I don't know what reformed doctrine means to you. But it appears from scripture that God can create things from the midst of creation, and not just from the beginning.
Isaiah 48:4-10King James Version (KJV)
4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;

5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.

6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.

7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.

8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.

10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

The Reformed doctrine of Predestination argues that individual people were chosen to be saved before time began and that nothing can change that. Some who hold that position say that God actually predestined everything that ever happens. Biblical predestination has nothing to do with these ideas

 

[Cygnus]

See, you're view of God is one of twisted beliefs. God is a JUST God.
A JUST God will not arbitrarily send ANYONE to hell, unless it is by their own choice.

Have you not read John 3:18?
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

People are born already condemned.

 

[Cygnus]

Please read 2 Peter 3:9 very slowly and explain which words of that verse are not intelligible to you.

Wondering

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

First, I find your arrogance not needed.
Once again your universalism sneaks in.

The any here are the elect. The any here are those predestined. All the elect, predestined will reach repentance.

 

[Cygnus]

Who are the sheep of the Good Shepherd?
Jesus was Jewish. He came for His own but He also invited the gentiles.
His sheep are those that believe Him and desire to be in His fold. Those are His sheep.
When Jesus says He has other sheep, He's speaking to the other 11 tribes, other than Judah (of which Jesus descended) and also of the gentiles.

So He is the gatekeeper of His sheep who hear His voice - those who wish to be in His fold.

Mathew 26:28
The New and Everlasting Covenant

The New Covenant is found in the O.T., Jeremiah 31:34.
The sign is Baptism
The seal is Jesus' sacrifice

All minor and major prophets spoke of the Kingdom of God. Jesus came to set up the Kingdom. John 3:3
God will forgive the sins and iniquities of those in the New Testament. Every covenant prior to this was for Abraham and for the land of Israel and the inhabitants of Israel. The N.C. is for EVERYONE, since there is a progression of inclusion in each succeeding covenant.

God is creating a family, HIS family:
Adam and Eve ..... Marriage
Noah ..................... Father, Patriarch, Family
Abraham................ A new nation, chieftan of a tribe
Moses.................... Promised land and a Holy Nation
David..................... KINGDOM with eternal throne with SON OF DAVID to rule over ALL nations

So, are we included in the N.C.?
YES.
At the Wedding Banquet, the gentiles are invited:
Mathew 22 The Marriage Feast

The gentiles are grafted in:
Romans 11:13...

The Kingdom of God will be of the nation producing good fruits
Mathw 21:33...

Jesus will make two groups into one:
Ephesians 2:14

Jesus establishes the Kingdom of God on earth in a spiritual sense, and in the future a real kingdom will reign.

Please read through the covenants up to the New Covenant and explain to me where there is a limit set in each case. You'll find that the New Covenant is for ALL men who wish to be a part of it.

You say His blood was
Poured out for many:

You mean THIS kind of many?
John 1:12
For as many as received Him...

Many = those that receive Him
of their own free will.

Wondering

Above You said ...."His sheep are those that believe Him and desire to be in His fold. Those are His sheep"

Do you actually have scripture to back that up...or did you post it because you thought it sounded pretty good? In a sense you are right...the elect do hear the voice of Jesus and do desire to be in His fold.

But then again if you want to believe it was your decision to believe..despite God giving you the faith, calling you, dragging you, granting you, quickining you, regenerating you.....have at it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm aware of the differences. My point was that the idea that God predetermined all things is not what the Scriptures teach. As I said, 'Calvin was into Stoicism,' too. If one already believes in Fatalism it's not hard to see how they went from it being fate to God.

I agree. As you must know...

W

 

[GodsGrace]

This does not actually answer why you have chosen the way you did. I someone wanted to hear about Jesus, and asked you why you believe, how would you answer?

Psalm 119 does not say we are given a choice. Nor does it answer why a person chooses the good path, nor how they recognize it as good. Deuteronomy 30;19 does show that we are given a choice of life and death, a blessing or a curse according to whether we keep the commandments or not. It is therefore an ultimatum that says do these things or be cursed and die. But the law is given only to condemn all men as sinners due to weakness of the flesh, which is why we also must confess we need a savior. Romans 8:2. Romans 7:24 . So speaking for myself, I have in part received Christ even because I confess that I do not have a freewill to keep the law, given the choice.

Psalm 119 recognizes our weakness of flesh and dependence upon God.
32 I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.

33 Teach me, O Lord, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end.

34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

35 Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.

36 Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness.

37 Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.

38 Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear.

39 Turn away my reproach which I fear: for thy judgments are good.

40 Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.

To answer you - If someone asked me why I believe and wanted to hear about Jesus, here's what I'd say:
I came to understand, through satan, that God exists. If there was one, the other also had to be.
I asked God to help me. He did. He told me a truth that really worked. So He must be real.
I was grateful, I loved Him and wished to serve Him the rest of my life.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Have you not read John 3:18?
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

People are born already condemned.

Did I say they weren't?

Why so many little posts?
I have to do this with DIFFERENT posters because I'm in a different time zone.
Why do you do this??

W

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

First, I find your arrogance not needed.
Once again your universalism sneaks in.

The any here are the elect. The any here are those predestined. All the elect, predestined will reach repentance.

I'm sorry if I sound arrogant. The written word does worry me a little.

I meant that you should read it slowly to absorb the English.
2 Peter 3:9
God is in no hurry to come back because He would like it if as many as possible could be saved because:

His wish would be that NONE perish, but that ALL be saved. But, of course, we know this cannot be.
His wish would be that ALL come to repentence. But, of course, we know that this cannot be.

But it is still God's wish and desire. But, alas, He leaves the DECISION to us
OTHERWISE, if it were up to HIM,
ALL would be saved and NONE would perish. (unlike what you believe-that God purposefully sends to hell).
John 1:12
John 3:36
Romans 6:23

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Above You said ...."His sheep are those that believe Him and desire to be in His fold. Those are His sheep"

Do you actually have scripture to back that up...or did you post it because you thought it sounded pretty good? In a sense you are right...the elect do hear the voice of Jesus and do desire to be in His fold.

But then again if you want to believe it was your decision to believe..despite God giving you the faith, calling you, dragging you, granting you, quickining you, regenerating you.....have at it.

I posted about the New Covenant because it's a VERY IMPORTANT covenant.

As you know, a Covenant is kind of like a contract between God and man. But more. Whenever God is present, it's always more.

So, you could honestly tell me, that the New Covenant is limited to those that God "predestined to be saved" and is not for everyone?

Why would God have needed to make a New Covenant ONLY for the ones He elected to be saved?
The New Covenant clearly teaches that it is for EVERYONE - whoever wills to be a part of it.
Why would Jesus even have had to die on the cross if God already had decided who would be saved and who would be lost? If GOD decided who would be saved, why would Jesus' atonement be necessary since God would necessarily have to take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for both the saved and the lost?

So I have two children. One I make good and one I make bad. I MAKE.
Then I kick the bad one out of my house. Even though I MADE him bad.
For the good one, I kill a part of myself to "save" him. Even though I made him good and knew he would be saved.

Does this make sense to you??

To adhere to your belief, you have to twist the whole concept of salvation and you also have to twist the English language.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Aaaaaahhhhh, I think I understand now, so any really doesn't mean "any", but "really" means only the elect.

Got it!

Which would also mean, that we should "interpret" whoever, in John 3:16, the same way.

By doing this special interpretation method, it's easy to see that John 3:16 should read this way -

For God so loved the world elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever [among the elect] believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 ATCV [ According To Calvinism Version]

Thanks for clarifying such a vastly misunderstood scripture.

JLB

John 3:16 ATCV [ According To Calvinism Version]

Yes. I believe double predestination believers require an entirely new bible with all the English changed to suit their needs.

W

 

[Mike]

Please people, do not accuse others of twisting scripture intentionally because they have a different interpretation. Keep arguments focused on the issue; not the person.