Predestination and Calvinism

[Cygnus]

I'm sorry if I sound arrogant. The written word does worry me a little.

I meant that you should read it slowly to absorb the English.
2 Peter 3:9
God is in no hurry to come back because He would like it if as many as possible could be saved because:

His wish would be that NONE perish, but that ALL be saved. But, of course, we know this cannot be.
His wish would be that ALL come to repentence. But, of course, we know that this cannot be.

But it is still God's wish and desire. But, alas, He leaves the DECISION to us
OTHERWISE, if it were up to HIM,
ALL would be saved and NONE would perish. (unlike what you believe-that God purposefully sends to hell).
John 1:12
John 3:36
Romans 6:23

W

God wishes none of the ELECT shall perish. Gods waiting for the last of the elect in history to appear.

 

[Cygnus]

I posted about the New Covenant because it's a VERY IMPORTANT covenant.

As you know, a Covenant is kind of like a contract between God and man. But more. Whenever God is present, it's always more.

So, you could honestly tell me, that the New Covenant is limited to those that God "predestined to be saved" and is not for everyone?

Why would God have needed to make a New Covenant ONLY for the ones He elected to be saved?
The New Covenant clearly teaches that it is for EVERYONE - whoever wills to be a part of it.
Why would Jesus even have had to die on the cross if God already had decided who would be saved and who would be lost? If GOD decided who would be saved, why would Jesus' atonement be necessary since God would necessarily have to take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for both the saved and the lost?

So I have two children. One I make good and one I make bad. I MAKE.
Then I kick the bad one out of my house. Even though I MADE him bad.
For the good one, I kill a part of myself to "save" him. Even though I made him good and knew he would be saved.

Does this make sense to you??

To adhere to your belief, you have to twist the whole concept of salvation and you also have to twist the English language.

W

All of Adams progeny is made bad.
Of them God chooses to have mercy on whom He desires.
Those whom He desires He calls, He drags to Jesus, grants the the ability to believe...He quickens and regenerates them...and gives them to Jesus where nothing can snatch them fron Jesus Hand.

Your choice means nothing.

 

[Cygnus]

So any really doesn't mean "any", but really means only the elect?


Which would also mean, that we should "interpret" whoever, in John 3:16, the same way.

For God so loved the world elect that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever [among the elect] believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Am I understanding you correctly? Is this the way you see that these scriptures should be interpreted?



JLB

Considering you don't choose Jesus, but God chooses you to believe in Jesus...your pretty close.
Considering God gives you the gift of grace and mercy...your pretty close.
Considering God has to drag you to Christ...your pretty close.
Considering God has to grant you the ability to believe ...your pretty close.
Considering only His sheep hear His voice...your pretty close.
Considering your dead in your sins and trespasses and God needs to quicken you...your pretty close.

 

[childeye]

The purpose of election? If you study the old Testament closely, especially the Judges, you'll see an up and down relationship of Israel to Jehovah their Elohim. You will also see those of whom God chose to liberate sinful Israel from their oppressors, namely the Judges. since God knew that all of mankind would not all be faithful to His Commands, He established a Remnant of followers who would love Him and obey Him. These people are the Elect of God.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you're saying that the purpose of election is to establish a remnant of followers who will love God and obey Him. I was hoping for an answer such as, so that righteousness can be seen as something that comes through the grace of God.

You didn't answer my second question. To me these scriptures 1 Corinthians 1:23, 24 point to the reason why God chooses the lowly and abased things to hear His calling, so as to put to nothing the high and mighty things. So that God alone is glorified.

 

[Jim Parker]

The word "predestined" is found only four times in the New Testament; twice in Paul's letter to the Romans, and twice in his letter to the Ephesians.

I think it would be worthwhile to look at the scriptures in which the word is found and to consider what is suggested by the context.

Rom 8:29-30 (NKJV) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

"Whom He foreknew"
Does this phrase suggest that there a people of whom God did not have foreknowledge? That would require that God not be omniscient. It seems to me that Paul is talking about those whom God foreknew would believe.

"He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,"
This phrase tells us two things: (1) THAT they were predestined and (2) TO WHAT they were predestined.
Those HE foreknew would believe were predestined to be "conformed to the image of His Son."
What does that mean? Where else is this idea presented.
We are given clarification at Ephesians 4:11.

Eph 4:10-16 (NKJV) He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things. And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Being conformed to the image of His Son is the discipleship of believers with the intended outcome that they come to:
- unity of faith
- the knowledge of the Son of God
- to be a perfect man (according to God's original intention before the fall)
- to the measure and stature of the fullness of Christ (to be just like Christ as a bearer of the fullness of Deity (Col 1:9)
- to be mature Christians who are not easily misled and who know the truth

So when Paul speaks of being predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, he is not talking being chosen to be saved, but, rather, having believed, about being discipled and becoming mature Christians. What is predestined in Ro 8:29-30 is God's purpose that all believers progress from "baby Christian" to being conformed, being just like, Jesus. (Except in being eternally God. We can't do that.) As Christ's plane from before the beginning was to be the exact representation of the Father in flesh, so, it is God's plan from before the beginning that believers would become exact representations of Christ.

The second place where the word "predestined" appears is in the first chapter of Ephesians.

Eph 1: 3-6 (NKJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Here, we are told that believers (that's who Paul is writing to, believers) had been chosen "in Him" from "eternity past" to be holy and blameless before God. It is "in Him" that believers are holy and blameless. It is necessary to be united to Christ in order to be holy and blameless. (Paul talks about being "one flesh with Christ" at Eph 5:31-32)

Next, Paul said believers are predestined to be adopted as sons of God. Believers are taken from the family of Adam and adopted into the "family" of God in which Jesus is the firstborn son. Believers cease to be bearers of a sinful will and become bearers of the presence of God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. As the fullness of deity dwelt in Christ, so the Godhead indwells believers. (And we need to let God out more.)

So, this passage tells us that those who believe are predestined to be holy and blameless before God and to be adopted as sons of God. (And daughters, of course.) It does not tell us that certain people were predestined to be believers.

Eph 1:11-12 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Those who trusted in Christ are predestined to be "to the praise of His glory."

So, in each use of the word "predestined" Paul is writing about God's plan for those who are ALREADY saved and not about anyone being predestined TO BE saved.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Iakov the fool

 

[childeye]

God wishes none of the ELECT shall perish. Gods waiting for the last of the elect in history to appear.

What about 1 Timothy 2:4 ?

 

[Butch5]

I don't know what reformed doctrine of predestination is other than what you say it is. You say it is drawn from inference, yet scripture speaks of a book of life with Individual names written in it. How do you interpret what this book of life is referring to?

It's a book into which God puts the names of those who follow Christ. Or, as in the OT those who followed God.

 

[Butch5]

If you read the full context, you'll see that the Gentiles are included, as Hosea prophesies. Romans nine is speaking about the Jews and in fact is God's instruction on predestination. It has many instructions in those verses, not just one.

Chopper,

The Gentiles are grafted into Israel. They're were not the one's spoken of when predestination was
mentioned. Predestination speaks of Israel. The word only appears a few times.

 

[JLB]

Thank you my old and one of my favorite friends. I mean that....You and I are very close in what we believe. You are one person who I respect because of your knowledge of Election. I think we both agree that Calvin was absolutely wrong about "Limited Atonement". Christ's atonement was and is available to all who call upon the Lord for Salvation, not just the Elect.

I think that is the major point that we can all agree on, and which we can all call each other brothers.

God Bless.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Considering you don't choose Jesus, but God chooses you to believe in Jesus...your pretty close.

...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
Ephesians 1:4


God chose those who chose to be in Christ.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you're saying that the purpose of election is to establish a remnant of followers who will love God and obey Him. I was hoping for an answer such as, so that righteousness can be seen as something that comes through the grace of God.

You didn't answer my second question. To me these scriptures 1 Corinthians 1:23, 24 point to the reason why God chooses the lowly and abased things to hear His calling, so as to put to nothing the high and mighty things. So that God alone is glorified.

I think my statement is quite clear. The purpose of election ultimately provided a line for Messiah to be born. As for your second question, you're right. Chapter 5 of Matthew lists the lowly.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper,

The Gentiles are grafted into Israel. They're were not the one's spoken of when predestination was
mentioned. Predestination speaks of Israel. The word only appears a few times.

Well, I disagree. I believe you're only fixed on Israel and not "who so ever will."

 

[Chopper]

I think that is the major point that we can all agree on, and which we can all call each other brothers.

God Bless.


JLB

Amen Brother.

 

[JLB]

This is the source of Biblical predestination. God made these promises to Abraham. He predetermined {predestined) that He would make Abraham's seed great.

He promised He would make Abraham's seed great, based on the condition, that Abraham believed by obeying.

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3

"In you" is a reference to the Seed, which is the Messiah.

The seed group being the blood line of the Messiah.

Abraham, Issac and Jacob [Israel] were Gentiles.

God foresaw that Abraham would believe/obey so He stated by faith these words... in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Paul refers us to this by saying... And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8



JLB

 

[JLB]

God wishes none of the ELECT shall perish. Gods waiting for the last of the elect in history to appear.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. Mark 3:35



JLB

 

[childeye]

I think my statement is quite clear. The purpose of election ultimately provided a line for Messiah to be born.

Respectfully, I can appreciate election being about a lineage of a people chosen to bring forth the Messiah. But the term elect is used describing believers in the Gospel many times. 1 Peter 1:2, Colossians 3:12. 1 Thessalonians 1:4. And scripture speaks of elect angels,1 Timothy 5:21.

 

[childeye]

"Whom He foreknew"
It seems to me that Paul is talking about those whom God foreknew would believe.

In 1 Peter 1:2, the term foreknowledge is used. According to the blue letter bible lexicon, it implies forethought as in pre-arranged.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[Butch5]

Well, I disagree. I believe you're only fixed on Israel and not "who so ever will."

That's because it's about Israel. Where do you see it not about Israel?

 

[Butch5]

He promised He would make Abraham's seed great, based on the condition, that Abraham believed by obeying.

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:1-3

"In you" is a reference to the Seed, which is the Messiah.

The seed group being the blood line of the Messiah.

Abraham, Issac and Jacob [Israel] were Gentiles.

God foresaw that Abraham would believe/obey so He stated by faith these words... in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Paul refers us to this by saying... And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8



JLB

But this doesn't address predestination. The one who were predestined are those who are the physical seed of Abraham.

 

[Butch5]

In 1 Peter 1:2, the term foreknowledge is used. According to the blue letter bible lexicon, it implies forethought as in pre-arranged.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

That passage is poorly translated. The word "eklectos" is actually in verse 1.

YLT 1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (1 Pet. 1:1 YLT)

The word foreknowedge is actually a compound Greek word it is before+know. The best understanding of the word is to knowing in the past. This is how it is used in the Scriptures. I think the definition you found in the Blue Letter Lexicon is reading something into the word that isn't there. In verses 1 and 2 Peter is wishing grace and peace according to God knowing before the elect sojourners of the dispersion