Predestination and Calvinism

[Cygnus]

My reply to the purple will be in bold green

FOR CYGNUS

Wondering says:
Upon what do you suppose God based His decision? The timing of your birth? Your good looks? Your fitting in nicely to this theatrical play He's got going?

Cygnus says:
The bible is silent on why God decides to rescue some from justice and deliver them with mercy. Why are you mocking Gods reasons?

Wondering replies:
I'd say YOU are the one mocking God. Making Him to be an unjust God who does NOT love His very creation and does not offer them the possibility of salvation based on their free will and has instead made them to be puppets in a play, or the proverbial robots, if you prefer.
And you say God is silent on this matter? SILENT. On such an important matter that involves all of humanity?

I don't see believers as robots, puppets. If you have free-will, I ask you again..what is it based upon? Wht does one accept Christ Jesus and the other reject? You to date have nort answered that question. (if you have I missed it and kindly ask that younrepeat it.)
as to being silent, the bible is clear that God chooses to have mercy on whom He will have mercy. You do know I didn't write that verse, but simply qouted that verse. It seems to be important enough that it made it into both the OT and the NT.
But as to why God chooses to save just who from the justice they deserve...there the bible is silent. What I do know is that God doesn't choose us upon our works. Maybe you think otherwise.

And what about those He predestined to hell? Was He in a really bad mood that day? And how did He pick them?

Do you not know every person is deserving of hell? God, that is sovereign God. has the right to have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy. In fact God wasn't required to have mercy on anyone.

Why did He make us? And regarding everyone deserving hell - Is this not why Jesus came to atone for our sins? Is this not why He is called the Savior?
2 Corinthians 5:17-18

Jesus came to atone for the sins of the elect. Those sheep called by God and given to Jesus...those sheep that will not be snatched for the hands of Jesus. I've already presented the support verses....what you have presented is your feelings....not scripture.

Does your side of the fence ever stop to consider how silly it all sounds. I don't say this in a mean spirited way, but to get you to think about what you're saying.

God choosing to have mercy on people is silly? You really think so?

I think it would be nice if He had mercy on EVERYONE. You disagree?
2 Peter 3:9
Not wishing that ANY SHOULD PERISH
But for ALL to come to repentence

If that were true the rich man would not be in hell and Lazarus in Abrahams bosom. The bible also speaks pf others whom are going to hell. I don't buy into you theology of universalism.



God wishes that none should perish but that all come to repentence. If He wanted to, He could save everyone. Do you know why He doesn't? Because it's up to US to CHOOSE to believe and follow Jesus for salvation.

But the bible say all that He give to Jesus come to Jesus ...why do you deny that?

If we choose...WHAT IS IT BASED UPON? Why do some choose Jesus and others not?


Here's just one verse for you:
Revelation 3:20
If ANYONE hears my voice and opens the door..

He who has ears to hear, let him hear....not all people have ears. You do realize that? If you hear Christ voice..you will be saved. Only
Jesus' sheep hear His voice, and Jesus knows them, and they follow Him.
Thoise that are not Jesus sheep will refuse to believe.

Those who do NOT have ears to hear are those who think they know everything, like the Pharisees, and have thus shut their ears to the truth.
Mathew 13:15-17

Like you?....I'm not saying your not saved...I'm just saying you don't understand salvation...which is OK.

And regarding His sheep. How about posting some scripture...

What would you like me to post about the sheep?




That's Jesus speaking.

That's right. It's Jesus speaking...and you putting words into Jesus' mouth.

Do you think He meant what He said?
Did He KNOW what He was saying?
Do you think He used the wrong words?

Jesus doesn't need me to speak for Him. I'll repeat what He said in
Revelation 3:20
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if ANYONE hears my voice and OPENS THE DOOR, I will come in to HIM and will dine with HIM and he with Me."

How true...and only the sheep hear His voice. The reference to sheep is about several sheep herders who have their sheep in the same pen. If a sheep herders calls for their sheep the will lift their heads and come to the sheep herder. If the sheep don't recognize the voice they will continue to eat.

Do you suppose John 6:44 has anything to do with Romans 2:19-20?

Not particularly

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 2:19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those in darkness, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in theLaw the embodiment of knowledge and truth —

Sorry. I meant to compare John 6:44 with Romans 1:19-20
John 6:44 says that God draws man to Jesus.
Romans 1:19-20 tells us how. From since the creation of the world His attributes, eternal power and divine nature have been known by man, through what has been made and clearly seen. God is evident to man and has revealed Himself to man. In this way, God draws all men to Him - some will choose to accept His plan of salvation and some will choose to refuse it.

Yes, mankind is without excuse. But lets talk about the word "draw" would you like to discuss that? Is draw God saying dragging or saying ...whooing...such as here kitty kitty . Trying to entice people?

Wondering

 

[Cygnus]

Let's look at the language of John 3:16.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Whoever believes... is clear.


Now let's look at another scripture that get's misapplied.

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18

Jesus was not speaking to everyone, but to His disciples that He Himself spent 3 1/2 years working with and teaching.

These were qualified to represent Him with authority and power, and to make disciples.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:27-30

This refers to His disciples, specifically.

If this was a blanket statement that refers to all of those who are His, then who are the other sheep.

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. John 10:16

His disciples heard His Voice and followed Him wherever He went, and they knew Him.



JLB

I believe the who so ever are the elect. You disagree.

I have to ask...why do some believe and others not? I'm kinda tired of "free-willers" avoining that question.

 

[GodsGrace]

FOR CYGNUS
(why don't you use the quote feature? This is getting out of hand)

Cygnus says:
I don't see believers as robots, puppets. If you have free-will, I ask you again..what is it based upon? Wht does one accept Christ Jesus and the other reject? You to date have nort answered that question. (if you have I missed it and kindly ask that younrepeat it.)

as to being silent, the bible is clear that God chooses to have mercy on whom He will have mercy. You do know I didn't write that verse, but simply qouted that verse. It seems to be important enough that it made it into both the OT and the NT.
But as to why God chooses to save just who from the justice they deserve...there the bible is silent. What I do know is that God doesn't choose us upon our works. Maybe you think otherwise.

Cygus,
Please explain this to me: You don't see believers as robots or puppets. How could this be? If God is making your choice, how could it be otherwise? A robot is programmed to do specific chores, a puppet is made to do what the attached strings make him do. The strings are attached to the puppet master who pulls them and makes the movements. This represents having NO free will of choice, but having to do, or perform, whatever the robot or puppet was built to do. If you DON'T believe in free will choice, how could you concurrently believe we are NOT puppets? If we don't have free will choice, then we ARE puppets.

I have answered your question regarding what makes us choose. You ask this many times and the answer is really very simple. You have difficulty with the answer because you prefer to believe that God does all our choosing for us.

My reply was that we choose based on our experiences. Based on our knowledge of God. Maybe we heard about Him in church as youngsters, maybe someone witnessed and told us about Him, maybe we had a personal encounter- having the experience of being told something by God, finding it to be the truth, and thus being able to believe in Him. Maybe we come to believe out of sheer WILL - the acceptance that God exists and that we wish to spend eternity with Him and so work toward that goal through justification and sanctification. It's easy Cygnus - I even said the other time; don't make it difficult. God reveals Himself - it's up to us to decide to obey or not obey, receive forgiveness or not receive forgiveness, accept salvation or deny salvation.

This puts the responsibility on YOU, which is why you have difficulty. Apparently you prefer to serve a God who purposefully sends people to hell. Do you realize that if it's as you say, we have NO responsibility for the WRONGS that we do? If God has NOT chosen a person and he does wrong and evil, well, it would not be his fault, would it? Does it seem right to you that a person who murders someone is totally not responsible for his act because he was not chosen to follow God?
Why should he be incarcerated? He only did what God predestined him to do - evil, for the lack of knowing God.

Cygus says:
Jesus came to atone for the sins of the elect. Those sheep called by God and given to Jesus...those sheep that will not be snatched for the hands of Jesus. I've already presented the support verses....what you have presented is your feelings....not scripture.

This is interesting since I've provided scripture. You're speaking about sheep again and I've asked a couple of times to please provide the verse since there is more than one.

Limited Atonement. How many times must we post the same verses? So Jesus died ONLY for those who were predestined to be saved? You could reread all of the above again. Here's why:
We could post scripture back and forth till the cows come home. You're not SUPPOSED to pluck scripture out to prove a point. The bible is a complete and total book with different chapters, beginning with Genesis. It's the story of God's relationship to Man. As you read thought the bible you DO NOT find the concept that God loves only a few men and condemns the others to hell. The concept you find is that He loves ALL men.

God is ALSO a sovereign God and will do what is necessary to achieve the final plan that only He knows about - it is not for us to know what that plan is. He very well might have hardened Pharaoh's heart to prove something; he very well might have waited till Lazarus died to get there, to prove something - this would be the exception, and not the rule. When the bible speaks of men's hearts being hardened, the particular verse must be taken by itself and studied. Sometimes it means God did the action; sometimes it just means that God stopped working in them and gave them over to a hard heart. IOW, He's saying -"if this is how you want it, this is how it'll be."

I have no problem with this. God will do what God will do. This does NOT mean that He does not offer ALL men the opportunity to be saved. Of course we are born lost, as you said in the post I did not reply to; it's up to US to seek salvation since it is offered to all.
Galatians 3:26-27
Ephesians 4:17-19
John 20:30-31
Acts 2:21 EVERYONE who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

Cygus says:
If that were true the rich man would not be in hell and Lazarus in Abrahams bosom. The bible also speaks pf others whom are going to hell. I don't buy into you theology of universalism.

Have some intellectual honesty Cygnus. You know very well that from my post I don't intend universalism. How many times have I used the word "hell"?
I don't understand what Lazarus and Abraham's Bosom has to do with this discussion.
Also, again you don't post scripture. I know you mean Luke 16:19, but do I have to do all the work??
Osmoses doesn't function well.

Cygnus says:
What would you like me to post about the sheep?

Come on Cygnus. I'm putting time into this hoping it'll be of some benefit. YOU brought up sheep, not ME. YOU have to provide the scripture.

Cygnus says:
How true...and only the sheep hear His voice. The reference to sheep is about several sheep herders who have their sheep in the same pen. If a sheep herders calls for their sheep the will lift their heads and come to the sheep herder. If the sheep don't recognize the voice they will continue to eat.

Again, no scripture.
But I like Ezekiel. There are shepherds who do not really care for their sheep. God said in the O.T. that He, Himself, would come to be the shepherd of His sheep. And His sheep are those that hear His voice and respond to it. Did you know that sometimes sheep just wander off? They get stuck, they fall off clifts, they get lost - they die because they didn't stay close to their shepherd. It's their CHOICE to go wandering off - looking for who knows what. The shepherd will ALWAYS go looking for a lost sheep in order to bring it back to the fold., but sometimes it doesn't work - much like in real life for us.

Cygus says:
Yes, mankind is without excuse. But lets talk about the word "draw" would you like to discuss that? Is draw God saying dragging or saying ...whooing...such as here kitty kitty . Trying to entice people?

I leave it up to your intellect to decipher whether I mean "dragging" or "whooing".
It should be obvious to you...

Remember Revelation 3:20. No door handle. Door must be opened from the inside.

Wondering

 

[ivdavid]

Faith is a noun, it is substance. It is what we receive
Faith is the substance of things hoped for.

FAITH: Hebrews 11:1
Faith is a noun. It's a "thing." It's something I have: an assurance that I will eventually have the things I hope for.

Given that multiple other topics are being discussed in this same thread, it just might seem redundant to get stuck on word definitions - but I believe this contributes as one of the core root differences between the two belief systems.

If I may summarize the points of discussion, it may bring more clarity on where we each come from.

1. You hold Heb 11:1 to be the definition of Faith, while I hold it to merely be a description of Faith.

It would seem scandalous on my part to disagree with the most widely accepted definition of Faith as in Heb 11:1, but the Greek Grammar simply doesn't lend itself to this interpretation.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for - is used in the same sense as - Milk is the substance of Ice creams. Now, to the question of what is the core substance of Ice creams, we'd answer Milk - but it is a far cry to defining Milk itself as the substance of Ice creams. Milk rather, is defined as An opaque white fluid rich in fat and protein, secreted by female mammals for the nourishment of their young - and a further description of it is that it lends itself to be used as the substance of Ice creams.

Similarly, to the question of what is the substance of the things you hope for, what forms the core basis of assurance for the things hoped for, the answer is Faith in God - but it is a far cry to defining Faith itself thus. The Christian Faith, can be generically defined as the system of believing in the sufficiency of Christ to fulfill all He has stated/promised to His people. Applying this in the context of an individual, one's "Having Faith in Christ" is defined as that individual's believing in Christ's sufficiency to fulfill all that He has promised the individual, therein having no semantic difference whatsoever.


2. You hold Faith to be a "thing", a crude parallel being a 'book' - which God gives to us. But it is our Believing that fulfills the purpose of being given it just as in the crude parallel, our 'reading' is what fulfills the purpose of being given the 'book'. Faith/'book' is the offer from God to which Believing/'reading' should be our response in obedience. Having Faith does not necessarily entail that one would believe in Christ.

I do not hold the same view - one's Having Faith to me is semantically exactly the same as one's Believing In Christ - just as one's having a good night's Sleep(noun) is exactly the same as one's Sleeping(verb) well through a night. The noun "Sleep" is not an independent 'thing' or substance apart from one's own act of sleeping - and especially when applied in the context of an individual, both amount to the exact same meaning.

I'd say this is not even a theological subject of discussion. A qualified person in linguistics should be able to clarify that the greek words for "having Faith" is used in the exact same semantic sense as the greek words for "Believing in" are used.

Satan believed in Him too and His ability to keep His promises on the basis of Jesus' nature and abilities

I assume we are speaking purely in the context of faith unto salvation or saving faith. If so, Where in Scriptures do we find Satan believing in Christ for his salvation? Satan has been promised no redemption or salvation by Christ - and therein it's impossible for Satan to believe in Christ for salvation.

To get a little more precise, for one "to have saving faith", he is to hold as true the sufficiency of Christ alone to fulfill His promises to atone, redeem, sanctify and glorify that person into the eternal Kingdom of God. For one to even claim to have such saving faith, he must necessarily be eligible for these promises in the first place, which satan isn't. In case you're referring to satan's belief that God is sufficient to save others, that doesn't amount to one's own saving faith - which should necessarily entail one's own salvation as a primary end-result. Besides, that would be worded as "believing that Christ saves" rather than "believing in Christ to save".

 

[ivdavid]

You're saying that salvation is monergistic- God doing all the work. The only causative cooperation on the part of man would be his desire to know God and to serve God. He must be looking for God in order to find Him, and in order to hear His voice. Other than this, I'd say that Justification (initial salvation) is totally the work of God.

For it to be monergistic, there cannot be any other causative contribution apart from God alone. So if you set up man's seeking God as a necessary cause, no matter how small it is in itself, it still becomes synergistic and not monergistic. "Other than this" is all the difference between the two belief systems.

 

[JLB]

You hold Faith to be a "thing", a crude parallel being a 'book' - which God gives to us. But it is our Believing that fulfills the purpose of being given it just as in the crude parallel, our 'reading' is what fulfills the purpose of being given the 'book'.

Very good analogy. [ Can I have your permission to use it?]

Thanks for making our point.

Faith is what we receive from God, when we hear His Voice.

Believing [obeying] is what we do in response to His Voice. [Faith is dead, without obedience]

IOW if you don't obey, you don't believe.


The Point: Our believing, which is our part, is not the same as, the faith that comes from God, which is His part.



JLB

 

[JLB]

For it to be monergistic, there cannot be any other causative contribution apart from God alone. So if you set up man's seeking God as a necessary cause, no matter how small it is in itself, it still becomes synergistic and not monergistic. "Other than this" is all the difference between the two belief systems.

Without our obedience to choose to do, what we hear from God, faith is dead.


Does God give us grace to do... Yes.
Do this mean God does the doing... No.


JLB

 

[ivdavid]

The Point: Our believing, which is our part, is not the same as, the faith that comes from God, which is His part.

Yes, I understand your position. It's just that you've based it on defining the phrasal words "to have faith in Christ" and "to believe in Christ" as 2 different concepts, while linguistically they mean exactly the same. If you have any other basis for such a distinction apart from just the definitions, then we could discuss that. Else, I'd simply request you to reconfirm if your rendering of these words and their meanings are indeed semantically correct or not.

 

[Cygnus]

My reply was that we choose based on our experiences. Based on our knowledge of God. Maybe we heard about Him in church as youngsters, maybe someone witnessed and told us about Him, maybe we had a personal encounter- having the experience of being told something by God, finding it to be the truth, and thus being able to believe in Him. Maybe we come to believe out of sheer WILL - the acceptance that God exists and that we wish to spend eternity with Him and so work toward that goal through justification and sanctification. It's easy Cygnus - I even said the other time; don't make it difficult. God reveals Himself - it's up to us to decide to obey or not obey, receive forgiveness or not receive forgiveness, accept salvation or deny salvation.

As I suggested previously...You base your acceptance on life experiences. One of them was "Maybe we heard about Him in church as youngsters," OK, what if that youngster never went to church and heard about Him? Poor fellow goes to hell now. "maybe someone witnessed and told us about Him" What if he was never witnessed to? Once again poor fellow goes to hell. Even still, even if they went to church and were witnessed to they still had to make the decision....why should, would they believe the church? The witness?

You said "Maybe we come to believe out of sheer WILL"...what if you don't have the sheer will? You have all of these answers and every answer is dependent on our life experience. For this reason I don't accept your answer.

God chooses you. You don't choose God. God give you the gift of grace and faith...you don't find it... God regenerates you....you don't regenerate yourself. God gives you the ability to believe. You don't figure it out on your own.

 

[Cygnus]

FOR CYGNUS

Limited Atonement. How many times must we post the same verses? So Jesus died ONLY for those who were predestined to be saved? You could reread all of the above again. Here's why:
We could post scripture back and forth till the cows come home. You're not SUPPOSED to pluck scripture out to prove a point. The bible is a complete and total book with different chapters, beginning with Genesis. It's the story of God's relationship to Man. As you read thought the bible you DO NOT find the concept that God loves only a few men and condemns the others to hell. The concept you find is that He loves ALL men.

It is a biblical fact....Jesus died for His sheep. John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Matt 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Notice it says poured out for many...not ALL.

Not all people go to heaven. Many go to hell. ALL people, don't go to heaven.

 

[Cygnus]

For it to be monergistic, there cannot be any other causative contribution apart from God alone. So if you set up man's seeking God as a necessary cause, no matter how small it is in itself, it still becomes synergistic and not monergistic. "Other than this" is all the difference between the two belief systems.

Good post. When one enters into the belief of synergistic salvation....they believe they had a part in their salvation.
Are those people then not saved? I think they are saved, they just misunderstand what happened.

 

[Butch5]

I understand that opening this thread is like opening the proverbial can of worms. I can hardly believe I am doing it. Especially because in my own mind the problem between freewill and predestination. They both make perfectly good sense to me. God knows and control what I will choose, but I can still choose. It's that simple to me. But apparently not for everyone else. Some really seem to struggle over this issue. In fact it has become a major arguments over and over in Christianity, and because it seems so easy for me my real problem comes from trying to understand why others have a problem with it. I guess that is why I posted on it.

So the question I would like to propose is:

Why do you think Calvinism and predestination verse freewill and a persons ability to choose has caused such problems?

When one understands predestination according to the Bible there is no tension between free will and predestination. The problem comes when one accepts the Reformed doctrine of Predestination, which isn't Biblical, that problems arise. There really isn't a debate to be had here.

 

[childeye]

This is how I see it. Freewill is vanity. I respectfully welcome anyone to talk me down.

The spirit behind freewill, is fundamentally "personal responsibility for one's actions". But when it enters the moral/ immoral purview, it then becomes "personal responsibility for one's righteousness and unrighteousness". Hence the blame and praise goes to the personal individual for their either righteous or unrighteous actions, and this becomes vanity as we compare ourselves with others.

Now to me, there really is no difference between being responsible for our own righteousness and unrighteousness and being responsible for our own obedience and disobedience. This must be said, lest in vanity/freewill, we see disobedience and obedience as something other than claiming righteousness and unrighteousness as our own prerogative. After all, obedience to God is a form of righteousness, and even the fear of God is one of His Spirits. It cannot come from a carnal source but vanity can. So This is why Paul begins Romans with explaining God's Wrath with the righteousness part of freewill/vanity.

God is angry that men suppress the Truth. They don't admit what they clearly are able to see. And that is, that God makes everyone, and what ever is righteous and godliness in mankind, are His attributes manifesting in the creature of His creation, and whatever is unrighteousness, is therefore a product of being made flesh. Romans 1:20.

There is a Godhead which men are under, and it is Eternal and therefore cannot be questioned. There is therefore no excuse to believe that we are personally responsible for our righteousness in praise of ourselves. Nor is it logical to use that righteousness to judge or scrutinize anyone, including He Who has established it this way so as to exalt and humble according to His wisdom and foreknowledge.

Then Paul explains what mankind did that changed God's glory from an incorruptible God to one like a corruptible man and worshipped the creation over the Creator. Romans 1:25. In vanity/freewill, they thought that they themselves were wise, and seeking mutual praise from others, they were therefore unthankful to God for their wisdom, and they entered into a darkness of understanding. Romans 1:21-22. Hence even though they knew God, they did not esteem Him as God.

So God gave men over to the lust of their flesh, to show them that they become unrighteous apart from Him. Romans 1:24. And men did become unrighteous and filled with vile passions. But in the workings of a reprobate mind, men still think it is by their Freewill that they choose to do those things. And therefore, since they do the abominable things, they therefore unwittingly are claiming that they approve of those doing them, even though they know, that God would not approve.

So therefore, to expose the complicated equivocation that freewill is, now Paul addresses the unrighteousness part of vanity/freewill. In Romans 2:1 he says, therefore there is no excuse to blame people for their unrighteousness, because we only condemn ourselves who do the same, just as we praise ourselves for being wise and righteous. Much of the rest of Romans is commentary on this. And all of scripture is about confessing ourselves as hopeless sinners apart from God's grace, and Christ as the only source of righteousness and redemption. In Christ, we can become renewed and worship God in Truth, being counted blameless for our foolishness, so long as we don't blame others who trespass against us. Therefore there is no condemnation in Christ, and we also receive the Holy Spirit to guide us in all Truth.

This is how I see righteousness by grace through faith. I believe this was all predestined to happen so as to glorify God. Romans 8:20.

 

[GodsGrace]

Given that multiple other topics are being discussed in this same thread, it just might seem redundant to get stuck on word definitions - but I believe this contributes as one of the core root differences between the two belief systems.

If I may summarize the points of discussion, it may bring more clarity on where we each come from.

1. You hold Heb 11:1 to be the definition of Faith, while I hold it to merely be a description of Faith.

It would seem scandalous on my part to disagree with the most widely accepted definition of Faith as in Heb 11:1, but the Greek Grammar simply doesn't lend itself to this interpretation.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for - is used in the same sense as - Milk is the substance of Ice creams. Now, to the question of what is the core substance of Ice creams, we'd answer Milk - but it is a far cry to defining Milk itself as the substance of Ice creams. Milk rather, is defined as An opaque white fluid rich in fat and protein, secreted by female mammals for the nourishment of their young - and a further description of it is that it lends itself to be used as the substance of Ice creams.

Similarly, to the question of what is the substance of the things you hope for, what forms the core basis of assurance for the things hoped for, the answer is Faith in God - but it is a far cry to defining Faith itself thus. The Christian Faith, can be generically defined as the system of believing in the sufficiency of Christ to fulfill all He has stated/promised to His people. Applying this in the context of an individual, one's "Having Faith in Christ" is defined as that individual's believing in Christ's sufficiency to fulfill all that He has promised the individual, therein having no semantic difference whatsoever.


2. You hold Faith to be a "thing", a crude parallel being a 'book' - which God gives to us. But it is our Believing that fulfills the purpose of being given it just as in the crude parallel, our 'reading' is what fulfills the purpose of being given the 'book'. Faith/'book' is the offer from God to which Believing/'reading' should be our response in obedience. Having Faith does not necessarily entail that one would believe in Christ.

I do not hold the same view - one's Having Faith to me is semantically exactly the same as one's Believing In Christ - just as one's having a good night's Sleep(noun) is exactly the same as one's Sleeping(verb) well through a night. The noun "Sleep" is not an independent 'thing' or substance apart from one's own act of sleeping - and especially when applied in the context of an individual, both amount to the exact same meaning.

I'd say this is not even a theological subject of discussion. A qualified person in linguistics should be able to clarify that the greek words for "having Faith" is used in the exact same semantic sense as the greek words for "Believing in" are used.

I see that you like both math and linquistics.
I've spent years teaching kids the difference between faith and belief.

I could have faith that Jesus is able to save me.
But not believe in Him so as to follow Him.

Or

Our moral life has its source in faith in God.
Faith is necessary. God gives us Faith.
Our DUTY toward God is to believe in Him and to bear witness to Him in our lives.
Believing in Him means living for Him - it means Doing. WE do the doing.

I assume we are speaking purely in the context of faith unto salvation or saving faith. If so, Where in Scriptures do we find Satan believing in Christ for his salvation? Satan has been promised no redemption or salvation by Christ - and therein it's impossible for Satan to believe in Christ for salvation.

To get a little more precise, for one "to have saving faith", he is to hold as true the sufficiency of Christ alone to fulfill His promises to atone, redeem, sanctify and glorify that person into the eternal Kingdom of God. For one to even claim to have such saving faith, he must necessarily be eligible for these promises in the first place, which satan isn't. In case you're referring to satan's belief that God is sufficient to save others, that doesn't amount to one's own saving faith - which should necessarily entail one's own salvation as a primary end-result. Besides, that would be worded as "believing that Christ saves" rather than "believing in Christ to save".

This is a total misunderstanding of what I posted, if you could seriously ask me where in scripture do we find satan believing in Christ for his salvation.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

For it to be monergistic, there cannot be any other causative contribution apart from God alone. So if you set up man's seeking God as a necessary cause, no matter how small it is in itself, it still becomes synergistic and not monergistic. "Other than this" is all the difference between the two belief systems.

You're getting carried away with language ivdavid.

I mentioned two words which must be understood in my post no. 186:
Justificaton
Sanctification

If you understand the above, monergistic and synergistic become unimportant since it's through our faith and belief in God that He works, and not through concepts made up by man.
1 Corinthians 2:2
1 Corinthians 2:4-5

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

When one understands predestination according to the Bible there is no tension between free will and predestination. The problem comes when one accepts the Reformed doctrine of Predestination, which isn't Biblical, that problems arise. There really isn't a debate to be had here.

Not only is it not biblical, it's a lie straight from satan that distorts the image, character, love and justice which are God and makes Him out to be a hideous ruler over His creation.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

As I suggested previously...You base your acceptance on life experiences. One of them was "Maybe we heard about Him in church as youngsters," OK, what if that youngster never went to church and heard about Him? Poor fellow goes to hell now. "maybe someone witnessed and told us about Him" What if he was never witnessed to? Once again poor fellow goes to hell. Even still, even if they went to church and were witnessed to they still had to make the decision....why should, would they believe the church? The witness?

You said "Maybe we come to believe out of sheer WILL"...what if you don't have the sheer will? You have all of these answers and every answer is dependent on our life experience. For this reason I don't accept your answer.

God chooses you. You don't choose God. God give you the gift of grace and faith...you don't find it... God regenerates you....you don't regenerate yourself. God gives you the ability to believe. You don't figure it out on your own.

If the youngster, or adult, NEVER heard about God, what makes you think they'd go to hell?

See, you're view of God is one of twisted beliefs. God is a JUST God.
A JUST God will not arbitrarily send ANYONE to hell, unless it is by their own choice.

You don't have will, Cygnus? Do you get up out of bed every morning? That's your will at work.

You could not accept my answer. However, ALL those who come to serve God because it is their choice and desire to, will accept it because it's the truth.

YOUR truth distorts God's love for His creatures and makes Him out to be a monster.

Please read 2 Peter 3:9 very slowly and explain which words of that verse are not intelligible to you.

Wondering

 

[Butch5]

Not only is it not biblical, it's a lie straight from satan that distorts the image, character, love and justice which are God and makes Him out to be a hideous ruler over His creation.

Wondering

I do agree that the Reformed doctrine impugns the character of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is a biblical fact....Jesus died for His sheep. John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Matt 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Notice it says poured out for many...not ALL.

Not all people go to heaven. Many go to hell. ALL people, don't go to heaven.

Who are the sheep of the Good Shepherd?
Jesus was Jewish. He came for His own but He also invited the gentiles.
His sheep are those that believe Him and desire to be in His fold. Those are His sheep.
When Jesus says He has other sheep, He's speaking to the other 11 tribes, other than Judah (of which Jesus descended) and also of the gentiles.

So He is the gatekeeper of His sheep who hear His voice - those who wish to be in His fold.

Mathew 26:28
The New and Everlasting Covenant

The New Covenant is found in the O.T., Jeremiah 31:34.
The sign is Baptism
The seal is Jesus' sacrifice

All minor and major prophets spoke of the Kingdom of God. Jesus came to set up the Kingdom. John 3:3
God will forgive the sins and iniquities of those in the New Testament. Every covenant prior to this was for Abraham and for the land of Israel and the inhabitants of Israel. The N.C. is for EVERYONE, since there is a progression of inclusion in each succeeding covenant.

God is creating a family, HIS family:
Adam and Eve ..... Marriage
Noah ..................... Father, Patriarch, Family
Abraham................ A new nation, chieftan of a tribe
Moses.................... Promised land and a Holy Nation
David..................... KINGDOM with eternal throne with SON OF DAVID to rule over ALL nations

So, are we included in the N.C.?
YES.
At the Wedding Banquet, the gentiles are invited:
Mathew 22 The Marriage Feast

The gentiles are grafted in:
Romans 11:13...

The Kingdom of God will be of the nation producing good fruits
Mathw 21:33...

Jesus will make two groups into one:
Ephesians 2:14

Jesus establishes the Kingdom of God on earth in a spiritual sense, and in the future a real kingdom will reign.

Please read through the covenants up to the New Covenant and explain to me where there is a limit set in each case. You'll find that the New Covenant is for ALL men who wish to be a part of it.

You say His blood was
Poured out for many:

You mean THIS kind of many?
John 1:12
For as many as received Him...

Many = those that receive Him
of their own free will.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I do agree that the Reformed doctrine impugns the character of God.

I'd like to add that it took 1,500 years for Mr. Calvin to come up with this concept. It was never contemplated before this time and was turned down as heresy in the late 1600's by the Synod of Jerusalem.

Wondering