Butch5
Member
It's used of believers because they have been grafted into Israel. That's what the parable of the Olive tree is about in Rom 11
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Predestination and Calvinism
- Thread starter K2CHRIST
- Start date
It's used of believers because they have been grafted into Israel. That's what the parable of the Olive tree is about in Rom 11
Butch5
Member
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph. 1:1 KJV)
This passage is one long sentence in Greek. It's got a bunch of dependent clauses. It is a Haebraism, a praise to God. Paul is giving praise to God for what He has done for the Jewish people. This is "NOT" speaking of Gentile Christians being chosen before the foundation of the world.
Notice that Paul differentiates between to groups here. He uses first and second person pronouns. There is one group, us, we, and our, and another group he calls, you and your. Paul puts himself in the first group of which he says, 'we who first hoped in the Christ'. It was the Jews who first hoped in the Christ.
This passage is one long sentence in Greek. It's got a bunch of dependent clauses. It is a Haebraism, a praise to God. Paul is giving praise to God for what He has done for the Jewish people. This is "NOT" speaking of Gentile Christians being chosen before the foundation of the world.
Notice that Paul differentiates between to groups here. He uses first and second person pronouns. There is one group, us, we, and our, and another group he calls, you and your. Paul puts himself in the first group of which he says, 'we who first hoped in the Christ'. It was the Jews who first hoped in the Christ.
Jim Parker
Member
Knowledge before the fact does not cause the fact.
I can know that, if it continues to rain, the roads will be flooded. That knowledge does not cause the roads to be flooded.
Malachi
Member
How do you arrive at this conclusion, since the church at Ephesus consisted of both Jews and Gentiles? The letter to the Ephesians is for all Christians throughout the ages.
Butch5
Member
The context. The book of Ephesians is about how God has made the two groups, Jews and Gentiles into one. In verses 3-12 Paul is praising God for what He's done for the Jews. All of the verbs in that section are past tense except one where Paul says, "we have redemption'. In that section Paul repeatedly uses first person personal pronouns, us, we, and our. When gets to verse 13 he changes to second person plural pronouns, you and your. He says,
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
(Eph. 1:13-14 NKJ)
When Paul says, "you also" he is referring to a different group of people than he was previously. He said we have all of this and you also trusted after you heard the Gospel.
The things that Paul states in verses 3-12 are things that God did for the Jews. It was the Jews who were chosen to be holy and blameless before God. It was the Jews who were given an inheritance. It was the Jews who God had made Himself known to. It was the Jews who were called the beloved. It was the Jews who had "before hoped" in the Christ. The context and grammar make it clear that there are two different groups of people referenced here.
I suppose this is an assumption you carry over from an earlier discussion with a calvinist elsewhere. Neither the text nor consequently I hold that Rom 9:9-13 talks about individual salvation.
It very clearly is an explanation of Paul's statement in Rom 9:8 - not the children of flesh but the children of Promise are counted for the seed - which again is to uphold his defense in Rom 9:6 that God's word has not failed to Israel despite it seeming that way when after all the covenants and the promises(Rom 9:4), they end up accursed from Christ (Rom 9:3) - this, being very much on the concept of salvation.
Also, I do not believe anyone is predestined for hell - I am more inclined to Lutheran doctrines which holds to single predestination - that's an entirely different topic, just stating it for context of where I come from.
Fine. Now why does Paul make this point here? He concludes that God has sovereignly elected a bloodline and...how does that fit into all the texts on salvation I've quoted in my last post? Against what issue (if not Rom 9:6) is Paul hoping to make defense in proving God's sovereign election of a bloodline alone with no context of salvation?
What is Paul's great sorrow? Doesn't the answer to this question pertain to the concept of salvation, thereby making it the central topic for chapters 9-11?
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Jim Parker
Member
[edit]
Assuming that predestination is a reality:
There are two possible outcomes: heaven and hell.
Some are predestined to heaven and others are not.
The others, who are not predestined to heaven, must be predestined to the only other possibility, which is hell.
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Why so?
If I have purposed to throw a destination party this weekend at a far-off place, and I invite all whom I know to come there but by arranging for their own means of transport - then without any contemplation at all I already know there is the possibility that one might be deterred from coming owing to the sheer distance and/or transport arrangements. Again, without thinking about any individual, if the possibility exists for one, it exists for all and there theoretically could be a scenario where none turn up for the party.
I then predetermine - that I shall welcome whosoever makes it there on their own. At the same time, to safeguard against the theoretical case of none turning up, I shall also at this moment itself elect my very close inner circle of friends whom I have predetermined to drive by and pick up on the day of the party in case they have decided against coming due to difficulties in travel arrangements. This elect group is a measure to provide certainty of at least a remnant at the party in the very worst case. Note here, I have predestined the end-result for my inner circle of friends, but have made no such predestining for the rest - they each may or may not destine themselves to be at the party.
So if my very close friend A decides to turn up on his own, great.
If my not so close friend P does so too, great - welcome to the party.
But if my very close friend B decides not to turn up, I'm going to be at his door on that day providing the very travel arrangements that deterred him, so as to ensure he is there too, as part of my initial election of my inner circle - which I had predetermined so as to meet my purpose of ensuring the certainty of a group of my friends at least to be present at the party.
If my not so close friend Q decides not to come, then I wouldn't be at his door picking him up on that day - but Note, this is not because I predestined for him not to be at the party.
Of course, there are only 2 outcomes - either one is at the party or one is not. But it is not quite so with my act of predestining - I could either predestine one to be at the party, or I could predestine one to not be at the party, Or I could simply not predestine anything at all, permitting the person to determine his destination for himself. For predestining involves an act of my volition, which I may or may not choose to exercise over a person - and which I have chosen to exercise over my elect group of close friends and similarly have chosen not to exercise over the rest. I will contend with all who are invited by reminding them of the party and by coaxing them to come, but the elect remnant are the ones who are predestined to be there while the rest are permitted to act in accordance with their own will.
Obviously this is a crude analogy meant to show the validity of single predestination alone and which cannot be applied to God in all aspects - for God does not elect based on people's attributes but rather on His own sovereignty etc. But the parallel should quite show it's perfectly logical for God to predestine His elect remnant to be saved at the very worst case, but which does not preclude His waiting with all longsuffering and forbearance for all (including the elect) to avail of His universal offer of salvation by believing in the Gospel of Christ first. It is when none choose to be saved, that He regenerates His elect remnant by His mercy as part of His predestining counsel to fulfill His purposes of having a people for Himself.
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Malachi
Member
That is pure conjecture on your part. The Christians in Ephesus were both Jews and Gentiles, and you can check that for yourself in the Acts of the Apostles. If anything, Paul was the one who constantly reminded the Christians that in Christ there was neither Jew nor Gentile.
And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. (Acts 19:17).
Malachi
Member
It may be perfectly logical, but it not perfectly biblical. Unfortunately Calvin allowed human logic to enter into his theology. Predestination is always for those who are ALREADY saved, not for sinners to be saved or lost.
There is a good possibility Calvin might have concluded wrongly on double predestination - given that I myself read only single predestination from Scriptures. But then again, you might believe I too have concluded wrongly on this. Anyway, Logic can always be proven to be wrong if it is - or shown to be inconsistent if it denies Scriptures. We could use this thread to discuss such Scriptural texts.
Why do you say my above statement is not biblical - when a remnant is saved (Rom 9:27) , and this remnant is according to His election of grace (Rom 11:5), and such election is predetermined independent of any's works (Rom 9:11) ?
Chopper
Member
The Elect of God is the Remnant of God, chosen by Him before the world was created. Jeremiah is a good example. They are a special, hand picked followers by YHWH to represent Him in all generations and geographical locations. God has always had a witness. The three portions of Scripture that you have posted is simply a reference to this special Remnant of believers to live according to their calling as the Elect of God.
Calvin's TULIP is correct when applied to the Elect of God. It is not correctly applied to the rest of the believers who come to Christ thru the "General Call of the Gospel" as they come by their own free will to either choose or deny Jesus the Christ of YHWH. They are the ones who also can loose their Salvation if they don't adhere to the faith until death.
Chopper
Member
The entire letter to the Ephesian Church should be ample proof that Israel is not the subject of this letter, but all people including Gentiles of which Paul was called to witness too.
Butch5
Member
It's not conjecture at all. Look at the grammar and the context. Yes, the letter is written to the church at Ephesus. However, there is a difference between someone being written to and written about. There are clearly two groups Paul is talking about, us and you.
Butch5
Member
Chopper, the subject of the book is God make the two, Jew and Gentile, one. That is clear from chapter two. In order for Paul to explain how the two are made one he has to specify that there are two groups. One group is the Jews and one group is the Gentiles.
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, (Eph. 2:11-19 NKJ)
Take notice that the "YOU" is the Gentiles. Also, notice who the saints are in this passage, the Jews.
In chapter 1 Paul gives the praise to God for what He's done for Israel and the blessings He's bestowed upon them and then in verse 13 He includes the Gentiles, 'in Him you also after you heard the word of truth.' He includes the Gentiles who receive these blessings "after" they heard the word of truth.
The "You" were sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13), who is the guarantee of inheritance for the "Us" (Eph 1:14) and not the "You" ?
Shouldn't we simply interpret it interchangeably until specifically and explicitly stated that there are 2 distinct groups being referred to?
Chopper
Member
Butch, you asked this, "That's because it's about Israel. Where do you see it not about Israel?" I think you just answered your own question. It's not about Israel only, it's about the two, Jew & Gentile's brought together. Therefore what verse one is speaking about applies to both. I'm interested in Verse one....
Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."
Yes sir.
Abraham typtifies this one new man, being both Jew and Gentile, as it were... being the source of the seed group for the Jews, while at the same time being a Gentile.
Paul also speaks of these things concerning Melchizedek, as being a type of Christ... who have no ancestry from which to derive a lineage, making Him neither Jew nor Gentile.
Since the bloodline is determined by the father, and Jesus Himself being the seed of the woman, can be considered neither Jew nor Gentile, though He was born under the law.
JLB
Butch5
Member
If it's about both then Isn't it about Israel? Verse 5 is about the Jews. As I've pointed out several times Paul references two groups, us and you. He explains clearly in chapter 2 that the group called "you" is the Gentiles. Therefore the other group, "us" is someone else. The statements in verses 3-12 tell us who the "us" group is, it's the Jews. It was the Jews who first trusted in the Christ. It was the Jews to whom God had given an inheritance. Notice that Paul said they had received an inheritance, past tense. The Gentiles had never received an inheritance from God. In verse 14 Paul speaks of a future inheritance of believers, it's future, not past. The past inheritance was to the Jews.
54 `And you shall divide the land by lot as an inheritance among your families; to the larger you shall give a larger inheritance, and to the smaller you shall give a smaller inheritance; there everyone's inheritance shall be whatever falls to him by lot. You shall inherit according to the tribes of your fathers. (Num. 33:54 NKJ)
This is what Paul is talking about in Ephesians.
It was the Jews who were predestined to adoption.
22 "Then you shall say to Pharaoh,`Thus says the LORD: "Israel is My son, My firstborn. (Exod. 4:22 NKJ)
The promise was to Abraham and his seed. Because Abraham obeyed God, God promised certain things to him. The Gentiles are made part of that through Christ. It is through Christ, by being grafted into the cultivated olive tree that the Gentiles become partakers of the promises to Abraham. Paul goes into detail about this in Galatians 3.
Paul
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph. 1:4 NKJ)
OT Realization
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. (Deut. 7:6 KJV)
2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. (Deut. 14:2 KJV)
Paul
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Eph. 1:1 KJV)
Accepted isn't the best translation the word actually means to pursue with grace. That's what God did for Israel.
OT Realization
6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. (Deut. 7:6 KJV)
Paul
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Eph. 1:1 KJV)
OT realization.
God did this down through time with the prophets. He gave Israel prophet after prophet who came saying, "thus saith the Lord".
Butch5
Member
There are two distinct group being referred to, us, and you. Notice that Paul starts with us, we. our, and then in verse 13 switches to you and your. He says all of the things God had done fro the Jews, then in verse 13 he includes the Gentiles "after" they heard the word of truth they became apart of the one group which is then us. In other words Paul starts out with a group us. Then he says after "you" heard the word of truth you became part of our group. He explains this later in chapter 2.
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, (Eph. 2:11-20 NKJ)
This passage explains verses 3-14 in chapter 1. Notice that the Gentiles have been brought into the covenants of promise that Israel already had. It is the covenants of promise that Paul is explaining in chapter 1:3-11. They had been chosen by God, they were to be holy, they had received an inheritance, they had received the wisdom of God. etc. Paul says that it is through Christ that the Gentiles have been brought into these covenant promises. Because the Gentiles are in Christ they are now a part of the chosen people, they are to be holy, they now has an inheritance, they now can receive the wisdom of God.