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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible
- Thread starter Nathan
- Start date
atpollard
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Nathan
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- Thread starter
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So here is what I gather from the WCF statements.
God's calling is different than His election, and so then His election is predicated on His predestination. Not all He calls are the ones He predestinates. But this is all in the context of salvation, not is who is called, elected, or predestined to hear the Gospel.
So He may call some, but He did not predestine them for election, and therefore they will not continue in the faith they received from Him - but they did receive grace, just they were not able to continue because they were not elected to do so.
----------------------------------------------------
As I indicated before, God made His plans known before He did them. So, If God were to call some, give them grace, only to take it away in the end, we should find it written about in the Old Testament. But what I find is that God does not take away something that He gives, nor does He call in "vain" only to not give those things He promises to those who draw near to Him. Isaiah says this in distinct words.
Isaiah 45
Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus,
whose right hand I have grasped,
to subdue nations before him
and to loose the belts of kings,
to open doors before him
that gates may not be closed:
“I will go before you
and level the exalted places,
I will break in pieces the doors of bronze
and cut through the bars of iron,
I will give you the treasures of darkness
and the hoards in secret places,
that you may know that it is I, the LORD,
the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I name you, though you do not know me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the LORD, who does all these things.
“Shower, O heavens, from above,
and let the clouds rain down righteousness;
let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit;
let the earth cause them both to sprout;
I the LORD have created it.
“Woe to him who strives with him who formed him,
a pot among earthen pots!
Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’
or ‘Your work has no handles’?
Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”
Thus says the LORD,
the Holy One of Israel, and the one who formed him:
“Ask me of things to come;
will you command me concerning my children and the work of my hands?
I made the earth
and created man on it;
it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
and I commanded all their host.
I have stirred him up in righteousness,
and I will make all his ways level;
he shall build my city
and set my exiles free,
not for price or reward,”
says the LORD of hosts.
Thus says the LORD:
“The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush,
and the Sabeans, men of stature,
shall come over to you rand be yours;
they shall follow you;
they shall come over in chains and bow down to you.
They will plead with you, saying:
‘Surely God is in you, and there is no other,
no god besides him.’”
Truly, you are a God who hides himself,
O God of Israel, the Savior.
All of them are put to shame and confounded;
the makers of idols go in confusion together.
But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.
For thus says the LORD,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it empty,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
“I am the LORD, and there is no other.
I did not speak in secret,
in a land of darkness;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
‘Seek me in vain.’
I the LORD speak the truth;
I declare what is right.
“Assemble yourselves and come;
draw near together,
you survivors of the nations!
They have no knowledge
who carry about their wooden idols,
and keep on praying to a god
that cannot save.
Declare and present your case;
let them take counsel together!
Who told this long ago?
Who declared it of old?
Was it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other god besides me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none besides me.
“Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.’
“Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me,
are righteousness and strength;
to him shall come and be ashamed
all who were incensed against him.
In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
shall be justified and shall glory.”
So those who turn to God, who receive forgiveness in grace, cannot then have it taken away by God. Therefore, it is not possible for God to call some, then not elect them.
God's calling is different than His election, and so then His election is predicated on His predestination. Not all He calls are the ones He predestinates. But this is all in the context of salvation, not is who is called, elected, or predestined to hear the Gospel.
So He may call some, but He did not predestine them for election, and therefore they will not continue in the faith they received from Him - but they did receive grace, just they were not able to continue because they were not elected to do so.
----------------------------------------------------
As I indicated before, God made His plans known before He did them. So, If God were to call some, give them grace, only to take it away in the end, we should find it written about in the Old Testament. But what I find is that God does not take away something that He gives, nor does He call in "vain" only to not give those things He promises to those who draw near to Him. Isaiah says this in distinct words.
Isaiah 45
Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus,
whose right hand I have grasped,
to subdue nations before him
and to loose the belts of kings,
to open doors before him
that gates may not be closed:
“I will go before you
and level the exalted places,
I will break in pieces the doors of bronze
and cut through the bars of iron,
I will give you the treasures of darkness
and the hoards in secret places,
that you may know that it is I, the LORD,
the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I name you, though you do not know me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the LORD, who does all these things.
“Shower, O heavens, from above,
and let the clouds rain down righteousness;
let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit;
let the earth cause them both to sprout;
I the LORD have created it.
“Woe to him who strives with him who formed him,
a pot among earthen pots!
Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’
or ‘Your work has no handles’?
Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”
Thus says the LORD,
the Holy One of Israel, and the one who formed him:
“Ask me of things to come;
will you command me concerning my children and the work of my hands?
I made the earth
and created man on it;
it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
and I commanded all their host.
I have stirred him up in righteousness,
and I will make all his ways level;
he shall build my city
and set my exiles free,
not for price or reward,”
says the LORD of hosts.
Thus says the LORD:
“The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush,
and the Sabeans, men of stature,
shall come over to you rand be yours;
they shall follow you;
they shall come over in chains and bow down to you.
They will plead with you, saying:
‘Surely God is in you, and there is no other,
no god besides him.’”
Truly, you are a God who hides himself,
O God of Israel, the Savior.
All of them are put to shame and confounded;
the makers of idols go in confusion together.
But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.
For thus says the LORD,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it empty,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
“I am the LORD, and there is no other.
I did not speak in secret,
in a land of darkness;
I did not say to the offspring of Jacob,
‘Seek me in vain.’
I the LORD speak the truth;
I declare what is right.
“Assemble yourselves and come;
draw near together,
you survivors of the nations!
They have no knowledge
who carry about their wooden idols,
and keep on praying to a god
that cannot save.
Declare and present your case;
let them take counsel together!
Who told this long ago?
Who declared it of old?
Was it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other god besides me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none besides me.
“Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.’
“Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me,
are righteousness and strength;
to him shall come and be ashamed
all who were incensed against him.
In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
shall be justified and shall glory.”
So those who turn to God, who receive forgiveness in grace, cannot then have it taken away by God. Therefore, it is not possible for God to call some, then not elect them.
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
- 5,372
- 295
There's something here that should be considered. Christians today tend to use the word unbelievers to incorporate all who are not believers in Christ. However, they don't all fit into a single group. There are some who have never heard the Gospel. These are different from those who choose not to believe. Those who choose not to believe have heard the Gospel and rejected it. The word translated "unbelievers" in the passage you quoted is "apisteuo". It is the word "pisteuo" , believe, with the prefix "a", not. It carries the idea of to disbelieve. In order to disbelieve the Gospel one must first have heard the Gospel. In essence then, it's not that all those who are not believers in Christ that have had their minds blinded by the god of this age, but rather those who have chosen to disbelieve.
Nathan
Member
- Sep 1, 2010
- 5,084
- 565
- Thread starter
- #527
Some of us understand this and believe it. But there are others, well regarded people(not that it should mean anything), who believe it does determine salvation.
The whole point of this thread is to look at it from a Biblical perspective and see how it indeed does not have to do with salvation alone.
I fully believe that when a person takes into view the entirety of the Bible this can be plainly seen. I think we dwell too much on the NT instead of looking at the OT, which is what Jesus and Paul both taught from.
If they could teach and let others understand what predestination and election is, just using the OT, then we should also be able to understand it.
It's only when the NT is misunderstood, wrongly applied verses, that we think predestination and election are only applied to some and withheld from others - and indicate some sort of mystery of Gods choice apart from our choice. There should be no mystery when we consider this theology while studying the Bible.
Butch5
Member
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It's these kinds of things that get overlooked that allow for erroneous theology to come into being.
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
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I agree. All one really needs to do is to read Paul's writings without their presuppositions and look at the context of what He writes to see what he is talking about. For instance, the passage you posted in the OP is often referred to as the golden chain of salvation. However, Paul isn't even talking about salvation in that passage. People use Roman 9 to say that God chooses to save some and not others. Again, that is not what Paul is talking about. He even states plainly that the choosing is that the older will serve the younger. The problem is that people have been so indoctrinated with this idea of proof texting that too many don't even know what the passage that they quote mean.
Chopper
Member
- Aug 11, 2013
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Butch, the end result of Predestination and Election IS Salvation.
Chopper
Member
- Aug 11, 2013
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I have defended classic Calvinism for years. I have found that most of the arguments against TULIP is that these people have neglected to review God's sovereignty, wisdom, plan for the ages, and just the awesome knowledge of what He has planned before the foundations of the world were laid. God did not wait to consult mankind to see how we perceive in our little pea brains what He should do to be fair to all, no, He is so much higher than we are and truthfully, modern man knows nothing about this subject.
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
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It's not. That idea is from the Reformation. Predestination and Election have to do with Israel and God's choosing people to fulfill His promises to Abraham. It's not the the idea that came out of the Reformation.
Butch5
Member
- Jul 16, 2012
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I'll agree with the last part of the last sentence. My arguments against the TULIP deal with the fact that not one of them is based in Scripture, but rather on inferences.
- Jul 13, 2012
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In addition to your statements and in line with what you are saying, there is the the idea from God's perspective that some people, according to the parable of the wheat and tares that can't or won't ever be saved, because they are the "children of the devil", sown into this world by the devil.
IOW, a tare will never become wheat.
- but the tares are the sons of the wicked one
- The enemy who sowed them is the devil.
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:37-43
Jesus said these words: You are of your father the devil... John 8:44
- I believe some would find this alarming to find out that Jesus said these words to Jews would believed in Him.
The full context:
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” John 8:31-41
I would like to hear this perspective discussed from the standpoint of this thread topic.
JLB
- Jul 13, 2012
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37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. Matthew 13:37-38
Well for starters, those who are the sons of the wicked one are not predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29
It would be only those who are the sons of the kingdom, that are predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son.
Unless you believe otherwise, if so, please share why.
JLB
Last edited:
- Jul 13, 2012
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3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6
- He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world...
God in His foreknowledge, saw those who would choose to be "in Him", and He chose them to be holy and blameless, having predestined those whom He foreknew would be "in Christ" to adoption as sons.
To me, any predestination or election, would have to come from the "spiritual gene pool" of the wheat group, and not the tare group.
JLB
atpollard
Member
- Nov 30, 2016
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Why do some fall away?
(I am not disagreeing, I just acknowledge the fact that not everyone who hears the gospel and starts the race will finish.)
The WCF offers one possible explanation, how do you explain the fact?
Were those who believed for a while 'called'?
Were those who believed for a while and fell away 'elected'?
(Luke 8:13, 2 Peter 3:17, 1 John 2:19)