Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Nathan]

PLEASE!! Whether Elect or General Call Believers, both have to, at some point in their lives, must believe by faith in Christ Jesus for Salvation. Just like everyone else. The major difference being that the Elect cannot loose their Salvation, whereas the General Call Believers can be deceived and return to old ways.

I'd still like to know where the distinction is made when you get a chance.

But, I do have a question regarding this thought. Do believers know which one of your groups they belong to, or is it unknowable?

 

[Chopper]

Ok, to better understand about the general call and those predestined, can you help us to understand which scriptures refer to each category of believer?

Does Romans 1:16, refer to the "General Call", of the Gospel, or the "Predestined Call" of the Gospel?

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16



JLB

Hello there my old friend. Certainly, I'd be honored to post the Scriptures you refer to. I'm being very basic here. The predestined call is Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

The General Call is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I said it would be simple....Here's some background that might help you and others. As you know, I'm a classic Calvinist. His TULIP is very true. Now, what I don't believe is that God, outside of the Elect, He determined that the rest of mankind would remain lost. That caused me to seek the Holy Spirit of God, to find an answer because of verses like "God is not willing that any perish" and the classic John 3:16.

There have been several folk on this Forum that say they never heard of the General Call of the Gospel. That's because it came to me by way of revelation by the Spirit of Jesus and made perfect sense. The General Call also answers the question of why so many "if's" in the Bible dealing with the loss of Salvation if certain rules are not followed like....Hebrews 2:1 "For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it." (NASB)

This is an answer to the fact that Calvin states that the Elect will be saved right to the end....Called by Calvin, "Perseverance of the saints."

So, the Elect will always continue to be saved, while the General Call Believers must maintain their faith in Jesus or forfeit Salvation. I hope this helps, if not, ask away old friend.

 

[Nathan]

Hello there my old friend. Certainly, I'd be honored to post the Scriptures you refer to. I'm being very basic here. The predestined call is Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

The General Call is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I said it would be simple....Here's some background that might help you and others. As you know, I'm a classic Calvinist. His TULIP is very true. Now, what I don't believe is that God, outside of the Elect, He determined that the rest of mankind would remain lost. That caused me to seek the Holy Spirit of God, to find an answer because of verses like "God is not willing that any perish" and the classic John 3:16.

There have been several folk on this Forum that say they never heard of the General Call of the Gospel. That's because it came to me by way of revelation by the Spirit of Jesus and made perfect sense. The General Call also answers the question of why so many "if's" in the Bible dealing with the loss of Salvation if certain rules are not followed like....Hebrews 2:1 "For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it." (NASB)

This is an answer to the fact that Calvin states that the Elect will be saved right to the end....Called by Calvin, "Perseverance of the saints."

So, the Elect will always continue to be saved, while the General Call Believers must maintain their faith in Jesus or forfeit Salvation. I hope this helps, if not, ask away old friend.

Thanks Chopper. I hope you don't ever take offense to my posts/questions. It seems to be happening to me the last day or so and I am not sure why.

So do you believe the letter to the Ephesians was completely to the elect/predestined ones only?

Also, do you believe that believers can know which one of your defined groups they belong to?

 

[Chopper]

I'd still like to know where the distinction is made when you get a chance.

But, I do have a question regarding this thought. Do believers know which one of your groups they belong to, or is it unknowable?

Good question my Brother & Friend. The answer is no, we do not know in which camp we belong. some, like myself may have a faint idea that they might be of the Elect simply because of the circumstances that led up to their Born Again experience. Like, I knew that the Holy Spirit was calling me for about 10 years before I became saved. Of course I didn't know it was the Holy Spirit. Things like that.

I think if we knew for sure, it might lead to a spiritual pride which our Lord doesn't like.

 

[Nathan]

Are there any other passages that make a distinction to this division of groups?

Also, the letter to the Ephesians - just meant for the Elect?

 

[joseph lentz]

Are there any other passages that make a distinction to this division of groups?

Also, the letter to the Ephesians - just meant for the Elect?

I do not think there are two groups of people being called.
Romans 3:23 says "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God;(24) being justified freely BY HIS GRACE TROUGH THE REDEMPTION THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS. Everyone MUST come this way.

 

[Chopper]

Thanks Chopper. I hope you don't ever take offense to my posts/questions. It seems to be happening to me the last day or so and I am not sure why.

So do you believe the letter to the Ephesians was completely to the elect/predestined ones only?

Also, do you believe that believers can know which one of your defined groups they belong to?

Hi again. I'll never take offense at anything you post because we're Brothers in Christ. AND, Christ is in you.

I believe that the Ephesians quote is for the Elect only.
I believe that some people can have an idea that they are of the Elect, but not for sure because of pride.

Love You
Chopper

 

[JLB]

The predestined call is Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

Yes this is clear that God chosen those "in Him" before the foundation of the world.

How does one come to be "in Christ"?

The General Call is John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

So those in the general call, are to believe in Him, to have everlasting life.

Got it.

Do those in the predestined call have to believe?

I said it would be simple....Here's some background that might help you and others. As you know, I'm a classic Calvinist. His TULIP is very true. Now, what I don't believe is that God, outside of the Elect, He determined that the rest of mankind would remain lost. That caused me to seek the Holy Spirit of God, to find an answer because of verses like "God is not willing that any perish" and the classic John 3:16.

There have been several folk on this Forum that say they never heard of the General Call of the Gospel. That's because it came to me by way of revelation by the Spirit of Jesus and made perfect sense. The General Call also answers the question of why so many "if's" in the Bible dealing with the loss of Salvation if certain rules are not followed like....Hebrews 2:1 "For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it." (NASB)

This is an answer to the fact that Calvin states that the Elect will be saved right to the end....Called by Calvin, "Perseverance of the saints."

So, the Elect will always continue to be saved, while the General Call Believers must maintain their faith in Jesus or forfeit Salvation. I hope this helps, if not, ask away old friend.

Ok, so does Romans 1:16 refer to the predestined call or the general call?

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


I have never really studied Calvinism, so this is kinda new to me.


Thanks for taking the time to explain, from your studies, the things that pertain to TULIP, and the predestined ones verses those who are saved in the general call.



JLB

 

[Chopper]

Are there any other passages that make a distinction to this division of groups?

Also, the letter to the Ephesians - just meant for the Elect?

Yes there are other passages of Scripture that make a distinction to these two groups. And Ephesians is for the Elect, at least in verses 4 & 5.

Yes this is clear that God chosen those "in Him" before the foundation of the world.

How does one come to be "in Christ"?



So those in the general call, are to believe in Him, to have everlasting life.

Got it.

Do those in the predestined call have to believe?





Ok, so does Romans 1:16 refer to the predestined call or the general call?

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


I have never really studied Calvinism, so this is kinda new to me.


Thanks for taking the time to explain, from your studies, the things that pertain to TULIP, and the predestined ones verses those who are saved in the general call.



JLB

Thank you JLB, lets make it clear. Whether a person is of the Elect, or the General Call, both groups must, at some point in their life, when they understand what Jesus has done to forgive their sins, and what they must do as a result, believe by faith in Christ's finished work of redemption on the cross, believe on Him for their Salvation. No one is exempt.

 

[JLB]

they must do as a result, believe by faith in Christ's finished work of redemption on the cross, believe on Him for their Salvation. No one is exempt.

We agree that the way to eternal life is by believing the Gospel.

The part I think we don't agree is: some are chosen before the foundation of the world for damnation and some are chosen for eternal life.

That would mean those of the predestined call, are "empowered" or "enabled" in such a way a to have them believe, while those of the general call must make the choice to believe, with no "empowering" or "enabling".

Am I understanding this correctly?

I honestly believe there are those who are predestined for specific purpose, such as Moses and John the Baptist, the Apostles, and Paul, but when it comes to salvation, they must believe and obey the Gospel like everyone else.

I also believe that when the Gospel was preached in the beginning, there was specific regions and people groups that were targeted to hear the Gospel first, because there were so few people that were qualified and equipped as Apostles to carry the Gospel.

I believe Paul was specifically led, and ordained by the Spirit to go to specific area's first, for the purpose of bringing the Gospel to those who also were predestined [for purpose] to be Apostles and Teacher's, Evangelist's, Pastor's, and Prophets.

The one thing to reconcile in all of this, is only those who are of sons of the kingdom, are qualified to believe the Gospel.

Believing the Gospel is what saves.



JLB

 

[joseph lentz]

When one believes he/she was predestined to eternal life,that person also has to believe no matter what,come hell or high water they are saved. No matter what sins they commit along the way(if they believe that anything is sin to them), Heaven is there home.Which leads to pride and self-righteousness.

 

[Nathan]

When one believes he/she was predestined to eternal life,that person also has to believe no matter what,come hell or high water they are saved. No matter what sins they commit along the way(if they believe that anything is sin to them), Heaven is there home.Which leads to pride and self-righteousness.

Interesting thoughts. I am not sure they came across very clear. Could you maybe explain them a little more, in a different way, without loosing the meaning you meant?

 

[joseph lentz]

Interesting thoughts. I am not sure they came across very clear. Could you maybe explain them a little more, in a different way, without loosing the meaning you meant?

I thought that I was pretty straight forward, but I will do it different:
If I felt that I was predestined to eternal life,or some specific calling in the future. Then I would have the belief,that no matter what I did in life,it is okay with God. Which in turn would become pride,and self-righteousness. This is what lead to the fall of the human named Lucifer,the King of Tyre.

 

[Nathan]

I thought that I was pretty straight forward, but I will do it different:
If I felt that I was predestined to eternal life,or some specific calling in the future. Then I would have the belief,that no matter what I did in life,it is okay with God.

That's what I thought you were indicating, but it did sound a bit different the other way you posted it.

I do think that some who "believe" in predestination probably have this train of thought. I also do think that others, who believe in the Calvin kind of predestination, in fact don't think they can.

Ultimately, it comes down to what people, who believe in this idea, tell and teach others about it. If they teach others that they can do whatever, and God will still 'save' them, then they are wrong. That is clear in the Bible.

 

[atpollard]

I have never really studied Calvinism, so this is kinda new to me.

I don't think that this explanation of 'general call' and 'predestined call' is strictly orthodox Calvinism. You will not find this taught in the Heidelberg Catechism or the Westminster Confession of Faith.

 

[Nathan]

I don't think that this explanation of 'general call' and 'predestined call' is strictly orthodox Calvinism. You will not find this taught in the Heidelberg Catechism or the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Yea, I did not see it in there either.

We should call it "Chopperism" :wink

 

[Papa Zoom]

I thought that I was pretty straight forward, but I will do it different:
If I felt that I was predestined to eternal life,or some specific calling in the future. Then I would have the belief,that no matter what I did in life,it is okay with God. Which in turn would become pride,and self-righteousness. This is what lead to the fall of the human named Lucifer,the King of Tyre.

It can (and should) lead to humility. That's my .o2

 

[JLB]

I don't think that this explanation of 'general call' and 'predestined call' is strictly orthodox Calvinism. You will not find this taught in the Heidelberg Catechism or the Westminster Confession of Faith.

I don't know about those things, as I don't study what man believes, [commentary], but what the scriptures teach.


This general call and predestined call is what my friend Chopper has studied and come to the conclusion of, in his studies to reconcile Calvinism and scripture.

That may not even be a good explanation of his findings in this matter, but what I believe he is conveying to me.

Sorry to Chopper if this explanation of mine about your studies, is misrepresenting you.



JLB

 

[Chopper]

We agree that the way to eternal life is by believing the Gospel.

The part I think we don't agree is: some are chosen before the foundation of the world for damnation and some are chosen for eternal life.

That would mean those of the predestined call, are "empowered" or "enabled" in such a way a to have them believe, while those of the general call must make the choice to believe, with no "empowering" or "enabling".

Am I understanding this correctly?

I honestly believe there are those who are predestined for specific purpose, such as Moses and John the Baptist, the Apostles, and Paul, but when it comes to salvation, they must believe and obey the Gospel like everyone else.

I also believe that when the Gospel was preached in the beginning, there was specific regions and people groups that were targeted to hear the Gospel first, because there were so few people that were qualified and equipped as Apostles to carry the Gospel.

I believe Paul was specifically led, and ordained by the Spirit to go to specific area's first, for the purpose of bringing the Gospel to those who also were predestined [for purpose] to be Apostles and Teacher's, Evangelist's, Pastor's, and Prophets.

The one thing to reconcile in all of this, is only those who are of sons of the kingdom, are qualified to believe the Gospel.

Believing the Gospel is what saves.



JLB

I believe that you and I agree on all accounts.

You and I agree on this quote of yours....

The part I think we don't agree is: some are chosen before the foundation of the world for damnation and some are chosen for eternal life.

That's where Calvin and I disagree. No one is chosen by God to be lost and spend eternity in the LOF.

The interesting fact of it all is, according to Hebrews....
Hebrews 1:1 "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high." (NASB)

Notice what the KJV says about V.2.... Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."

And the ESV on V.2.... Hebrews 1:2 "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

Hang in there JLB, there's a method to my madness. The Scripture plainly states that the creation of the world, and all created things were the work of non other than the Son of God, Jesus. You know JLB? I don't hear anyone posting about this fact of creation by Jesus Christ. Are they scared to stick their necks out because their not sure? Well I'm not!!

Well here's my point old Buddy. Since everything in the universe/earth was created by Jesus, God's Son by the Word of His Power, AND since Jesus....Hebrews 1:3 "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."....Died for the sins of every man, would He will or determine that some would be saved but some would remain lost and go to hell? NO, NO, NO!!!

I don't think that Calvin realized the Truth of the Scriptures that I just posted. That the Son of creation was the Son Who died on that cross for man's sins.

Love You JLB
Chopper

 

[Chopper]

Yea, I did not see it in there either.

We should call it "Chopperism" :wink

Hi Nathan. Since I'm the author of the "General Call of the Gospel" you'll not find that theology anywhere but here at CF.net. For some solid information, check out my post to my friend JLB on post # 779. Thank you for "Chopperism" it's gotta be called something, right?