Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Jim Parker]

They must be good.


I have noticed that whenever you feel strongly about a subject or teaching, you post it twice.

I was asked the same question twice.
My answer didn't change and I didn't want the second person to miss it.
As you were.
I'll be in the area.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is a steady flow of Protestants away from Protestantism and into the Orthodox churches as a direct result of people wanting to know what the early church taught and discovering the Early Church Fathers. They find that what was orthodox (lower case "O") in the first 800 years of the church and what the modern western churches teach to day are, on some key issues, worlds apart and they move to the churches that teach the original doctrines of the Church.

I personally came into Orthodoxy from the Pentecostal Holiness Church. (So now I'm "orthocostal?")

It's a gentle awakening.

iakov the fool

Orthocostal. Yes.
And what am I??
Protocatholic?
We did the opposite!

 

[Jim Parker]

Orthocostal. Yes.
And what am I??
Protocatholic?
We did the opposite!

Not so much.
Before I "got saved" in the PHC I was raised RC. (And knew nothing except God is a trinity and nuns carried concealed rulers.)

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

Not so much.
Before I "got saved" in the PHC I was raised RC. (And knew nothing except God is a trinity and nuns carried concealed rulers.)

iakov the fool

LOL
They don't carry concealed rulers anymore!
Now everyone is begging people to go to church.

At the time of the Apostles, all they had to do was convince people that they were worshipping the wrong god. (the gentiles, at least).
Today, the churches have to convince people that God EXISTS!

That's a bit more difficult to do.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, how do you reconcile two different groups of believers with one singular faith? It's by faith that we are saved, and that faith is a gift of God, so it means that He would be giving two different faiths. Where do you find two different faiths in the Bible?

I've been quite clear in my belief's. I don't know where you are seeing that I believe in two different faiths. The Elect, and General Call believers are believing in the ONE JESUS, ONE BAPTISM, ONE CHURCH OF JESUS, ONE, ONE, ONE!!!

 

[Nathan]

I've been quite clear in my belief's. I don't know where you are seeing that I believe in two different faiths. The Elect, and General Call believers are believing in the ONE JESUS, ONE BAPTISM, ONE CHURCH OF JESUS, ONE, ONE, ONE!!!

Then what about the passage in Ephesians that speaks of one faith and one calling? I'm just trying to understand how you reconcile two different callings, one to the elect and one to the general; and how you reconcile two different faiths because it is by faith we are brought into Christ. If one person is to believe they are the elect, and the other general - then those are two separate faiths.

I'm not speaking of the life of faith, in which we live, but the faith that God gives us in order for us to receive His grace. Ephesians speaks very clearly about this. That is why I am seeing you speak of two different faiths. If the same faith was given to both, then either both would be elect or both would be general.

Do you believe that God gives us faith, as a gift, in order for us to receive grace?

 

[JLB]

Then what about the passage in Ephesians that speaks of one faith and one calling? I'm just trying to understand how you reconcile two different callings, one to the elect and one to the general; and how you reconcile two different faiths because it is by faith we are brought into Christ. If one person is to believe they are the elect, and the other general - then those are two separate faiths.

I'm not speaking of the life of faith, in which we live, but the faith that God gives us in order for us to receive His grace. Ephesians speaks very clearly about this. That is why I am seeing you speak of two different faiths. If the same faith was given to both, then either both would be elect or both would be general.

Do you believe that God gives us faith, as a gift, in order for us to receive grace?

Yes of course there would need to be two "faiths", [no such thing as two faiths] if there were two paths or ways to be saved.


The only way to be saved is to believe [obey] the Gospel, which is by grace through faith.

The Gospel is the power [grace] of God unto salvation: for everyone who believes.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


The only question, now for Brother Chopper is: Does Romans 1:16, refer to the
"General Call", of the Gospel, or the "Predestined Call" of the Gospel?




JLB

 

[Nathan]

Yes of course there would need to be two "faiths", [no such thing as two faiths] if there were two paths or ways to be saved.


The only way to be saved is to believe [obey] the Gospel, which is by grace through faith.

The Gospel is the power [grace] of God unto salvation: for everyone who believes.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


The only question, now for Brother Chopper is: Does Romans 1:16, refer to the
"General Call", of the Gospel, or the "Predestined Call" of the Gospel?




JLB

It's nice to know I'm not the only one that has trouble rationalizing two seperate callings.

I would think if this was known then there would be mention of it somewhere. But everything I read says all believers come to the faith the same way. I would thing that the word "some", or "part", or "a few" would be used in describing the difference of election.

It would be a pretty significant point to make if there was a difference. The only reason to make a distinction is to rationalize some can fall away.

 

[Chopper]

Apparently I'm not making my self clear on this issue, or you're seeing something that I'm not teaching. There are not two faiths, and I don't understand why you see it that way. There are two different groups of people who come to believe in the Christ of God, Jesus. One group is called the Elect. The other group is General Call believers. Both groups exercise the same gift of faith from the grace of God. Both groups rely on the same Holy Spirit's power to understand and believe the same Gospel.

Lets stop here. Do you two have any questions?

 

[Nathan]

Apparently I'm not making my self clear on this issue, or you're seeing something that I'm not teaching. There are not two faiths, and I don't understand why you see it that way. There are two different groups of people who come to believe in the Christ of God, Jesus. One group is called the Elect. The other group is General Call believers. Both groups exercise the same gift of faith from the grace of God. Both groups rely on the same Holy Spirit's power to understand and believe the same Gospel.

Lets stop here. Do you two have any questions?

yes, I have a question. Where do you find the distinction of the two groups in the Bible? If there are two groups of believers, then there has to be some mention of it - not just an inference. I honestly have never seen the term "General Call" associated with believes, or anything like it.

I am not trying to be offensive chopper. I truly do not understand where you get this from. I can see how you would come to this conclusion, but only in the sense of trying to reconcile the thought of predestination(as defined by calvin) with the plethora of passages dealing with believers falling away. In that reconciliation, I can see drawing a distinction between two groups. But Biblicaly I simply cannot find it.

Here is a second question. In Ephesians 4 Paul says there is one calling. So, if there is a call for the elect, and one for the General, would that not add up to the number 2?

 

[Chopper]

Ok my good friend Nathan. To save you from reading a very long post and explanation of my theology on this matter that you're asking, it might save time and space by asking you a few questions, if you don't mind.

The reason that you haven't heard of the General Call of the Gospel is, I'm the one who has come up with it for some very good reasons, of which you will soon understand.

Please consider this portion of God's Word....Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

These folk who have been chosen before the foundation of the world, and been predestined to be saved, or Children of God, does this apply to everyone who is saved?

 

[JLB]

But everything I read says all believers come to the faith the same way.

Of course, if their were some who came by grace and faith, and then some others who were somehow, "made" to believe, then then one who was made to believe, would not be saved by faith.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It's nice to know I'm not the only one that has trouble rationalizing two seperate callings.

I would think if this was known then there would be mention of it somewhere. But everything I read says all believers come to the faith the same way. I would thing that the word "some", or "part", or "a few" would be used in describing the difference of election.

It would be a pretty significant point to make if there was a difference. The only reason to make a distinction is to rationalize some can fall away.

Yes.


So the question remains: Does Romans 1:16, refer to the "General Call", of the Gospel, or the "Predestined Call" of the Gospel?

If so, then what category are those of Ephesians 1:3-5, "General Call" or "Predestined Call"

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6


This shows us, God through His foreknowledge, chose those "in Christ", before they foundation of the world.

God saw would would choose Christ, and He predestined those who would choose to be "in Christ", before the foundation of the world, to adoption as sons.



JLB

 

[joseph lentz]

Yes.


So the question remains: Does Romans 1:16, refer to the "General Call", of the Gospel, or the "Predestined Call" of the Gospel?

If so, then what category are those of Ephesians 1:3-5, "General Call" or "Predestined Call"

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6


This shows us, God through His foreknowledge, chose those "in Christ", before they foundation of the world.

God saw would would choose Christ, and He predestined those who would choose to be "in Christ", before the foundation of the world, to adoption as sons.



JLB

Romans 1:16 has nothing to do with predestination,only the Plan of Salvation was predestined......God does not know who will come before hand,that is left entirely up to the individual. No one is predestined, only those which are drawn by the Spirit and come with a broken spirit and contrite heart need apply. A lot of scriptures can be taken out of context,especially when taken at only face value. Such as "All Israel shall be saved". Does that mean even though a person is a rapist and murderer, because he is a Jew,he will still be saved if he dies in his sins? Paul says we are all sinners saved by Grace. If a person is predestined,either he can't sin,or can sin all he wants,either way he's secure and Heaven bound.

 

[Nathan]

Ok my good friend Nathan. To save you from reading a very long post and explanation of my theology on this matter that you're asking, it might save time and space by asking you a few questions, if you don't mind.

The reason that you haven't heard of the General Call of the Gospel is, I'm the one who has come up with it for some very good reasons, of which you will soon understand.

Please consider this portion of God's Word....Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

These folk who have been chosen before the foundation of the world, and been predestined to be saved, or Children of God, does this apply to everyone who is saved?

Yes, it applies to everyone who has faith. One in Christ. Even Abraham is apart of this group.

 

[Nathan]

Romans 1:16 has nothing to do with predestination......God does not know who will come before hand,that is left entirely up to the individual. No one is predestined, only those which are drawn by the Spirit and come with a broken spirit and contrite heart need apply. A lot of scriptures can be taken out of context,especially when taken at only face value. "Such as all Israel shall be saved". Does that mean even though a person is a rapist and murderer, because he is a Jew,he will still be saved if he dies in his sins?

God does know, the beginning to the end, if He did not know, then He could not be God. Think about it. If God knew how things would end, but didn't know how an individual would respond before, then how can you rest assured He actually knows the end?

Isaiah 41:1-4
1 Listen to me in silence, O coastlands; let the peoples renew their strength; let them approach, then let them speak; let us together draw near for judgment.
2 Who stirred up one from the east whom victory meets at every step? He gives up nations before him, so that he tramples kings underfoot; he makes them like dust with his sword, like driven stubble with his bow.
3 He pursues them and passes on safely, by paths his feet have not trod.
4 Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

 

[Butch5]

Ephesians 1:1-12 [NIV]
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To God’s holy people in Ephesus,a d the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—6 to the praise of his glorious grace,p which he has freely given us in the One he loves.q 7 In him we have redemption through his blood,s the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the richest of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mysteryu of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,e having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.a 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth,c the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal,d the promised Holy Spirit,e 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


To read this as being written to one group "the Faithful Saints" of which Paul includes himself, and to read in again as addressed to two distinct groups "us/our" and "you" creates two such radically different messages, that they are NOT the same Gospel!

To imply, as you have, that the promises of EPH 1:3-12 are for Jews in order to fulfill an OT promise to the nation of Israel and should not be applied to Gentiles as a promise for all believers is not a trivial point to make. Your claim amounts to one that Jewish Christians are
"blessed in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ" ... Gentile Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists). Jewish Christians were "chose in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight." ... Gentile Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists). Jewish Christians were "predestined for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ" ... Gentile Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists). Jewish Christians have "redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" ... Gentile Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists).

Gentile Christians were "marked with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" ... Jewish Christians need to look elsewhere for such a promise (if it exists).

This is not the tone of the message of the rest of scripture and is very different than the meaning derived from Paul addressing one group in which Greek and Jew become a trivial detail and the promises are for the True (spiritual) Israel, not those who are Jews in flesh only. This may not be your intent, but this is how your words ARE being heard and why they are encountering so much resistance.

*****



Respectfully, we are reading it. Perhaps too closely, but we are reading it ...






I may have misunderstood, but I read you claiming Ephesians 1 is ...
1. about historic Israel (not spiritual Israel)
2. about promises to David
3. not about Gentiles being included in the the promises (you were refuting Nathan making that very point).
4. not about "chosen to be saved".

In my opinion, while Ephesians 1 is about the fulfillment of the promises to Eve and Abraham and David, it appears to me to be ALL ABOUT the Spiritual Israel, the children of Abraham by faith, those with circumcised hearts. It is about the natural branches that were not cut off and the wild branches grafted on all of which derive value and life from connection to the True Vine. The WE/US of Ephesians includes Paul (who was not a gentile but is part of the Faithful Saints, and the YOU of Ephesus excludes Paul (because the statement does not apply to him). There is no division of the body in the lesson or promise, just acknowledgement of the reality ... Paul was not a gentile from Ephesus.

You have misunderstood what I've said. You did touch on it though when you said the passage was "about" Israel. I'll address this shortly. In the mean time please tell me who the two groups are. Grammatically, us and you cannot be the same people.

 

[Butch5]

In the second half of Ephesians 2 Paul writes how God has taken the Gentiles and included them in the covenants of Israel.

He writes this is what God has done for us Jews, Ephesians 1:3-12. Then after "YOU" (Gentiles) heard the Gospel, you too were included in these covenants, Ephesians 1:14-23. This is how God did it, Epehsians 2

 

[Nathan]

Butch5

When Paul speaks to the Thessalonians in the second letter, is he leaving himself out of the equation because he does not say "us" or "we"? Is he saying that they are the ones God choose as firstfruits, to be saved, and to obtain glory, leaving himself out because he does not use certain words?

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15
13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

 

[Butch5]

Wouldn't Ephesians 1:12 be very important to this conversation?
verse 12: "to the end that we who were THE FIRST to hope in Christ should be to the praise of His glory".
NASB

verse 13: "in Him, you ALSO, after listening to the message of truth..."
NASB

It seems to me that Paul is speaking about two groups but both are In Christ and are the faithful.
Group 1: Those who believed FIRST, the Apostles - and Paul - that brought the gospel and were chosen by God to do this.

Group 2: Everyone else that believes in Jesus for salvation.

verse 15: "...and your love for all the saints".
NASB
Perhaps Paul means the deliverers of the gospel by "the saints" ?

I don't quite understand why this is so important???

Verse 12 is very important. Paul and the apostles were Jews. A more accurate translation is, before hoped in the Christ.

The word the is in the Greek but left out in some English translations. This show translational bias. It's probably not intentional, but just a misunderstanding, but bias none the less.

Who were the people who before hoped in "the Christ"? It was the Jews. Paul isn't talking about people placing faith in Jesus. He talking about people who had previously hoped in the Messiah. The Jews were the people who were hoping in the Messiah, not the Gentiles.

Notice these translations kept the word "the".

YLT Ephesians 1:12 for our being to the praise of His glory, even those who did first hope in the Christ,

CJB Ephesians 1:12 so that we who earlier had put our hope in the Messiah would bring him praise commensurate with his glory. (Eph. 1:12 CJB)

The New Jerusalem Bible puts it even clearer.

Ephesians 1:12 chosen to be, for the praise of his glory, the people who would put their hopes in Christ before he came. (Eph. 1:12 NJB)