quote by stranger on Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:49 am
unred typo wrote:
“That’s not the way I came about understanding God’s scope of knowledge. First I believed as you do, that every particle of the future was known to God, but somehow not orchestrated by Him. I then had a much more detailed, cumbersome and complicated paradigm of how that could happen and still maintain free will.â€Â
If every particle of the future was known by God its logical to say that everything was orchestrated by Him through, e.g. the laws of physics which God invented and governs. I somehow think you were overwhelmed by the details. What you say below further leads me to believe that:
unred typo wrote:
In reality, when I was forced to consider how the thing was maintained by God, it became apparent that in order for such a scheme to work, the events to the tiniest detail would have to be done already (at least in God’s mind) and be eternally known.
This is symptomatic of a philosopher becoming overwhelmed by the details. . .
Why do you think they say, ‘the devil is in the details’? The details are where you realize that it ain’t that simple. In fact, it gets quite ugly. I have no problem believing that God could know all the details of a created and orchestrated future. What I have a problem with is understanding the Bible in the light of such a theory. It doesn’t work. If you think it does, you better rethink it.
quote by stranger:
unred typo wrote:
God is eternal, and his word is eternal but not all the events of the future. Even the single most benign event such as you brushing your teeth at 12:02 on November 22, 2009 in your red silk jammies would have to be some kind of reality for God to already know it before the world was created. Otherwise, it would be faulty knowledge and not true. Just consider the fixed events that one future event relies upon in order to be true. . .
unred typo wrote:
I did work out a solution but it was akin to killing houseflies with a shotgun. We won’t even go there. Thankfully, we don’t have to. The objections you have about the future being known/unknown can all be addressed with the simple statement of fact that the knowledge of the events of the future is unknown because it doesn’t exist in a fixed way such as the history of the past exists.
The simple statement of fact needs to be tested before you claim it to be true. There is association and continuity between the past, present and the future. I really think that the starting point for testing your assertion is with God:
1. start with God existing and no creation at this point.
2. Next God creates the world.
Since time can be demonstarted to be a created entity, it would be ridiculous to state that God who created time, past, present and future did not have complete knowledge and mastery over it.
The evidence is that God manages the universe and Christians believe that the physical laws are God's laws insofar as they are true.
“Since time can be demonstrated to be a created entity,†Say what?? …wait a minute… we haven’t established that at all. Not even close. Chapter/verse, please. I don’t see time as created or any type of entity. It’s a concept, a way to measure, like weight or height or distance.
quote by stranger:
So it is no good stating that God cannot know the future as a fact because you cannot prove it. Even men can accurately predict the future an example of which I have posted separately. If you want to do an experiment - make it simple in a controlled environment. It is the environment that is often the hinderance.
God is eternal and exists outside all relations of time; not subject to change.
Well, I could prove it the same way you proved that “time can be demonstrated to be a created entity,†…that was a piece of cake. You just stated it and charged ahead to build your case on top of your own statement. No fair.
Man cannot accurately predict the future. Never and not once. They may get lucky and predict what will happen and it doesn’t get messed up, but if God doesn’t want their prediction to come true, it ain’t gonna happen, not once, no way. Only God can accurately predict the future with 100% accuracy. He has the clout to make it happen and no one can thwart his plans.
God can and does change his own mind and his own plans. What doesn’t change are his holy principles, his non aging attributes, his non diminishing power and his foundation of truth. Read these and explain how God’s plans can change in these instances if they were set from the beginning of time:
Exodus 13:17
And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest
peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:
This shows God’s uncertainty of how the people will react when they meet opposition.
1 Chronicles 21:15
And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
The amount of destruction was not already set ahead of time.
Jeremiah 26:13
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.
There is a distinct ‘if’ here.
Ezekiel 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
A choice to repent or not.
Amos 7:6
The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.
God changes his mind.
Jonah 3:10
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
God again changes his mind.
Genesis 18:20-21
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
God must see what their reaction to the angels he sends before he can determine how wicked they have become.
There are hundreds of other instances that could be sited of God changing the plans he had made based on the free will actions of man. I don’t have a problem with this in my theology. The future is not predetermined. What do you do with these?