Predestination and Election

[stranger]

Drew wrote:

The fact that all are indeed equal in Christ (as you say) is not grounds to assume that all "got there in exactly the same way". This seems to be your argument. I still think the original argument is sound (although I am not done yet!) - there is no justification for concluding anything beyond what is said - the prophets and apostles were predestined.

Hi Drew,

To clarify - all were predestined in Christ for salvation. The answer to how they got there or got to be in Christ was a work of God (since this happened before creation). The reference to Christ dying before the foundation of the world . . . ie before creation is therefore definitive.

The Apostles and Prophets were therefore also predestined within or as a subset of a larger group. I am not concluding anything beyond what is said in the text - thus my view is that the 'us' you refer to refers to Paul and the saints in Ephesus.

I agree that the prophets and apostles were predestined to salvation at this stage.

 

[unred typo]

quote by wingnut on Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:00 am
How does predestination work?

The same way a Builder builds a house. He owns a piece of land. He conceives of a plan for the house. Then he has the means to have the foundation laid, orders the bricks and hires a bricklayer to build the structure. Then he calls in contractors to finish the house, and viola - what began as an idea, is brought to pass, exactly according to the plan.

Just as Josh and red_undo seem to be intimating, God has an overall idea for the house, but the specifics get sorted out as the house goes along.

Here is my challenge to all.

Find me a prophecy/scripture in the Bible which shows that every detail of the future is mapped out. That is not how God operates.

God has a general plan for what he wishes to achieve. He can prophesy how things will turn out simply because he has the power to bring things to pas as things go along. If God wants to keep Israel in Egypt a little longer, he hardens Pharaoh's heart. When Israel prove uncooperative in the wildernis, God just keeps them there a little longer. But ultimately they get to the Promised Land in the right attitude. When they ask for a King, God gives them one, even though He thinks its a bad idea (which it was). Through all this give and take and interaction with uncooperative man, one thing is for sure. Ultimately God holds the winning hand, and he always wins. His will always is done. What He predestins (sp?), ultimately will come to pass.

I haven’t seen anyone take up the challenge, wingnut but I really like this nice, simple analogy. It’s brilliant in it’s simplicity. So brilliant I think it is inspired of God. Drew brought up a verse Ephesians 2:20 "having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone" which very aptly fits into this context. In fact all of Ephesians works in this same framework. Look at these verses as well:

19Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together grows unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom you also are built together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

God’s plan existed before we existed, before we became part of it as individuals, if we have. Whether or not we become part of the building of it has been left up to us. The church is going up with or without us. Whosoever will may come and do their part in it’s completion. The church I’m referring to is the universal church made up of all God’s followers from all times and places as they submit unto the rule of God through his Son.

 

[unred typo]

quote by stranger on Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:26 am

To clarify - all were predestined in Christ for salvation. The answer to how they got there or got to be in Christ was a work of God (since this happened before creation). The reference to Christ dying before the foundation of the world . . . ie before creation is therefore definitive.

The Apostles and Prophets were therefore also predestined within or as a subset of a larger group. I am not concluding anything beyond what is said in the text - thus my view is that the 'us' you refer to refers to Paul and the saints in Ephesus.

I agree that the prophets and apostles were predestined to salvation at this stage.

I can’t seem to get a rational answer to this question, stranger. I hope you can give me one.

How could a person who has not been born, nor has his parents been born, nor any human being been born, be known personally by God and be chosen, elected, predestined and ordained to salvation? I can understand it in the example that wingnut gave which I just re-posted above, but I cannot fathom it in the way you and others here have insisted it must be believed.

Correct me if I’m wrong please, but are you saying that God knew you personally before Adam was even created? Did you know God before you existed or did he just know you? Were you a lump of clay sitting on God’s wall before there was clay, before there was a wall, before anything that exists, was created? Did you talk to God or he to you, before you were created? In what way did he know you?

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote:

I can’t seem to get a rational answer to this question, stranger. I hope you can give me one.

How could a person who has not been born, nor has his parents been born, nor any human being been born, be known personally by God and be chosen, elected, predestined and ordained to salvation?

The text in Ephesians 1 says that God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. The expression 'in Him' is equivalent to 'in Christ' and this is the key. Why? I suggest the motivation is/was/ will ever be - out of love. How? In Christ or if you perfer the mystery in Christ.

I can understand it in the example that wingnut gave which I just re-posted above, but I cannot fathom it in the way you and others here have insisted it must be believed.

I don't insist - this a discussion forum. By all means argue your case.

Correct me if I’m wrong please, but are you saying that God knew you personally before Adam was even created? Did you know God before you existed or did he just know you? Were you a lump of clay sitting on God’s wall before there was clay, before there was a wall, before anything that exists, was created? Did you talk to God or he to you, before you were created? In what way did he know you?

Let us look at Romans 8:29 . .
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son. . .

From this text I can say that God not only foreknew but also predestined those in Christ to become conformed to the image of His Son. If my testimony is true and I walk in the light -those in Christ includes me.

As to your questions . . I would say that God foreknew me in Christ before Adam was created. This contruct keeps me within the created order after Adam's creation and in Christ before Creation.

While I can't use your vocabulary in every instance have I answered your question?

 

[stranger]

There are two kinds of predestination. One is wrong, one is right.

The first kind is the wrong kind. It says in calvinism that the person is totally deprave from the fall and can't choose, so that God predestinates by saving some and not others without regard first for their choice, like robots.

The other kind of predestination (Biblical) is God predestinates by foreknowing (Rom. 8.29) our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints.

Hi workerforthechurch,

When Jesus hung on the cross with the thieves on each side - one expressed belief and the other unbelief. Both exercised a sort of faith, one obtained a promise from Jesus and the other didn't. I try not to define 'predestined' with qualifications or disqualifications. If there is tension between predestination and whosoever will then weighting/emphasizing one, at the expense of the other, will invariably fail. Why not live with, and in, the tension?

 

[unred typo]

by stranger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:30 am
unred typo said:[quote:fe507]
I can’t seem to get a rational answer to this question, stranger. I hope you can give me one.
How could a person who has not been born, nor has his parents been born, nor any human being been born, be known personally by God and be chosen, elected, predestined and ordained to salvation?

The text in Ephesians 1 says that God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. The expression 'in Him' is equivalent to 'in Christ' and this is the key. Why? I suggest the motivation is/was/ will ever be - out of love. How? In Christ or if you perfer the mystery in Christ.

I can understand it in the example that wingnut gave which I just re-posted above, but I cannot fathom it in the way you and others here have insisted it must be believed.


I don't insist - this a discussion forum. By all means argue your case.[/quote:fe507]

While I appreciate your attempt, you didn’t say that wingnut had answered correctly according to your belief or not, you just ignored it. This is not a discussion if you and I talk past each other, is it? We have both quoted the verse(s) in question. Repeating them and giving a non-explanation doesn’t answer the question they raise. I used the wrong word. I should have said you ‘persist’ in your belief even though you make no attempt to understand or explain it in any practical way.

by stranger :
unred typo said:[quote:fe507]
Correct me if I’m wrong please, but are you saying that God knew you personally before Adam was even created? Did you know God before you existed or did he just know you? Were you a lump of clay sitting on God’s wall before there was clay, before there was a wall, before anything that exists, was created? Did you talk to God or he to you, before you were created? In what way did he know you?

Let us look at Romans 8:29 . .
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son. . .

From this text I can say that God not only foreknew but also predestined those in Christ to become conformed to the image of His Son. If my testimony is true and I walk in the light -those in Christ includes me.

As to your questions . . I would say that God foreknew me in Christ before Adam was created. This contruct keeps me within the created order after Adam's creation and in Christ before Creation.
While I can't use your vocabulary in every instance have I answered your question?[/quote:fe507]

You talked around it. Do you think the term, ‘foreknew’ means in any way that God knew the substance and attributes that you are individually and personally constructed of, before the world was even formed? Were you ‘you’ before the creation of anything else?

I don’t know what you mean by my ‘vocabulary’. Everything I asked could have been framed by a six year old. Is it the ‘clay on the wall’ shelf imagery that confused you?

As to your answer, I, too, would say that God foreknew me in Christ before Adam was created, but not as personal substance, but as part of the unknown body of Christ that would eventually be made up of the ‘whosoever will‘ believers.

Now that I think back to wingnut’s analogy to personal salvation, I see a way that it can be related to an individual, and not the unknown future. The builder/overseeing the construction analogy can be stretched and twisted to be used as God’s blueprint for each individual’s foredained destiny, which is not what wingnut nor I had intended, unless I misunderstood what he meant. I still hate analogies. :wink:

 

[MrVersatile48]

Timely Word 4 Today:-

The Guarantee of Redemption


And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, (NIV) Ephesians 1:13


The transaction of redemption is legitimized when Paul says in Ephesians 1:13 that believers are "sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" (RSV). (In Paul's time, a seal was used to confirm that an object or a document was genuine and/or to mark a thing as one's property.) The Holy Spirit is a deposit or payment of earnest money guaranteeing the inheritance promised by God. The Spirit is our down payment, the first installment made in advance, that secures the "legal" claim of our redemption.

When all seems lost. . . when it seems that God is silent. . . when it looks like God has disappeared. . . remember, God has not forsaken you. Jesus Christ died for you. The Holy Spirit secures God's payment in your relationship with Him. Read the Truth - cling to the Truth - and trust God!

Written by Marji "Mike" Kruger

Forward this devotion to a friend

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote:

You talked around it.

What you refer to as 'talking around' is in fact the very center of the doctrine, namely that God foreknew us in Christ before creation. But there are also boundaries and I don't want to overstep them.

Do you think the term, ‘foreknew’ means in any way that God knew the substance and attributes that you are individually and personally constructed of, before the world was even formed?

I prefer this - that God's foreknowledge is perfect just as His knowledege is perfect, comprehensive and exhaustive before creation. Having said that - the answer to your above question would be yes.

Were you ‘you’ before the creation of anything else?

In the mind/thoughts of God in Christ. Let us agree that 'foreknow' simply means 'to know beforehand'.

I don’t know what you mean by my ‘vocabulary’. Everything I asked could have been framed by a six year old. Is it the ‘clay on the wall’ shelf imagery that confused you? As to your answer, I, too, would say that God foreknew me in Christ before Adam was created, but not as personal substance, but as part of the unknown body of Christ that would eventually be made up of the ‘whosoever will‘ believers.

We agree on the first part of your statement, namely 'that God foreknew me in Christ before Adam was created' . When you finish your sentence with but . . . and what follows. . . is your interpretation. Presumably your unknown body of Christ equates to the 'until the full number of Gentiles come in' . . . and all Israel?

Now that I think back to wingnut’s analogy to personal salvation, I see a way that it can be related to an individual, and not the unknown future. The builder/overseeing the construction analogy can be stretched and twisted to be used as God’s blueprint for each individual’s foredained destiny, which is not what wingnut nor I had intended, unless I misunderstood what he meant. I still hate analogies. :wink:

Ok, you and wingnut appear to be on the same wavelength.

Have I answered your questions now?

 

[unred typo]

quote by stranger on Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:10 pm

I prefer this - that God's foreknowledge is perfect just as His knowledege is perfect, comprehensive and exhaustive before creation. Having said that - the answer to your above question would be yes.

God’s knowledge is perfect in that he knows everything that can possibly be known. A free will action or decision cannot be known in truth until it is made. God can know all about you and your dislikes and preferences and what you would most likely choose to do but it can’t be stated in truth until it happens or it‘s course is set. If it isn’t true, God doesn’t know it or God’s knowledge would be wrong. His knowledge can never be wrong.

His foreknowledge is based on him knowing what he will or would do in any given situation. If you choose to do good, he will reward you. If you choose to do evil, he will punish you. If you repent, he will forgive you. Your choices determine where you end up in his foreknowledge. It’s not that difficult or mysterious.

We may be able to agree that 'foreknow' simply means 'to know beforehand', if you can agree to my analogy here: (I know, I know, we hate those… )

It’s the same way that you can foreordain that your children will get an ice cream if they remain in the house and do their chores while you go to the store. Those who are in the house and done their chores are the chosen and elected to have ice cream. Who are they? It doesn’t matter if they all obey or none obey or which ones do or don’t, you foreknow who you are going to reward: those who obey.

Doesn’t that work for you better than something that can‘t be understood?

quote by stranger:
We agree on the first part of your statement, namely 'that God foreknew me in Christ before Adam was created' . When you finish your sentence with but . . . and what follows. . . is your interpretation. Presumably your unknown body of Christ equates to the 'until the full number of Gentiles come in' . . . and all Israel?

The unknown body of Christ is unknown and determined solely on the parameters that God set out before the foundation of the world. Those that obey him will be rewarded, those that sin will die unless they repent and follow Christ. Those that repent of their sin and follow Christ’s ways are the body of Christ. There is no reason to assume they are personally pre-known before they were born before the foundation of the world in eternity past. When they obey and follow Christ, they then become part of the body of Christ foreordained from the beginning of creation to be conformed to the image of God’s son. No reason to go all time-warp sci-fi here or unformed space goop with your name on it, or whatever you believe you believe. Which, btw, you have still not explained how you believe you can personally be known without being created which is still what you seem to say here.

You try to fudge around it by saying that you are “in the mind/thoughts of God in Christ.†Is this akin to being ‘a twinkle in your father’s eye’ just before you were conceived or something more concrete? A plan or a design is not a ‘person’ personally known. You can’t be intellectually honest and keep two opposing thoughts. That doesn’t seem to matter to some around here though.

:-?

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote:

God’s knowledge is perfect in that he knows everything that can possibly be known. A free will action or decision cannot be known in truth until it is made. God can know all about you and your dislikes and preferences and what you would most likely choose to do but it can’t be stated in truth until it happens or it‘s course is set. If it isn’t true, God doesn’t know it or God’s knowledge would be wrong. His knowledge can never be wrong.

There is a difference in world views emerging, yours and mine. I apologise for getting into theory and philosophy more so than actual theology. The clearest way is to examine the emerging differences is side by side - yours are numbered 1. and mine 2.

1. God’s knowledge is perfect in that he knows everything that can possibly be known.
2. God's knowledge is perfect.

1. A free will action or decision cannot be known in truth until it is made.
2. God has free will. Men have too many constraints to have free will.

1. God can know all about you and your dislikes and preferences and what you would most likely choose to do but it can’t be stated in truth until it happens or it‘s course is set.
2. God knows everything about us. We don't necessarily know the outcome of an event until it happens. God knows what the outcome will be before it happens.

1. If it isn’t true, God doesn’t know it or God’s knowledge would be wrong. His knowledge can never be wrong.
2. All truth is found in God. No truth exists outside God.

His foreknowledge is based on him knowing what he will or would do in any given situation. If you choose to do good, he will reward you. If you choose to do evil, he will punish you. If you repent, he will forgive you. Your choices determine where you end up in his foreknowledge. It’s not that difficult or mysterious.

God knows what He own will is. If your referring to foreknowing us in Christ / predestination - then I cannot say that it is based upon what choices we make or fail to make:

As far as I can tell: Foreknowledge/ Predestination is not based upon our choices to validate that God made the right choice before Creation.

We may be able to agree that 'foreknow' simply means 'to know beforehand', if you can agree to my analogy here: (I know, I know, we hate those… )

It’s the same way that you can foreordain that your children will get an ice cream if they remain in the house and do their chores while you go to the store. Those who are in the house and done their chores are the chosen and elected to have ice cream. Who are they? It doesn’t matter if they all obey or none obey or which ones do or don’t, you foreknow who you are going to reward: those who obey.

Doesn’t that work for you better than something that can‘t be understood?

No, because what you are offering is the mechanics of foreknowing/predestination that is based upon your subsequent obedience. Have I understood your illustration aright? With foreknowledge and predestination - I want to leave it with God which, if you think about it, is expressed by the term before the foundation of the world.

Linguistically foreknow means to know beforehand. But since we are talking about God and 'those who He foreknew He predestined (in Christ)'. . . I can accept Paul's statement on the basis of faith in Christ. Now there are verses that cause me to be uneasy - but I refuse any false comfort to alleviate this uneasiness. Do questions like this cause you to be uneasy?

Which, btw, you have still not explained how you believe you can personally be known without being created which is still what you seem to say here. . .

You try to fudge around it by saying that you are “in the mind/thoughts of God in Christ.â€Â

Obviously I have not explained it to your satisfaction, but I am content with what I have said. You ask me where I was before the creation of the world? I answered 'in the mind/ thoughts of God in Christ'. If you want to press your question - the answer will still be 'in Christ'. This is what God has revealed - that is how I know and why I believe that the answer is true ie 'in Christ' - two words upon which so much Christian theology is built - its amazing!

Is this akin to being ‘a twinkle in your father’s eye’ just before you were conceived or something more concrete? A plan or a design is not a ‘person’ personally known. You can’t be intellectually honest and keep two opposing thoughts. That doesn’t seem to matter to some around here though. . .

Again, what God has revealed is concrete in the sense that it is propostional truth. I see no conflict with God having a plan for redemption AND a knowledge of those in Christ before Creation. After all God is not like we are though we are made in His image.

 

[unred typo]

quote by stranger on Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:04 am:
There is a difference in world views emerging, yours and mine. I apologise for getting into theory and philosophy more so than actual theology. The clearest way is to examine the emerging differences is side by side - yours are numbered 1. and mine 2.

1. God’s knowledge is perfect in that he knows everything that can possibly be known.
2. God's knowledge is perfect.

God’s knowledge is perfect in my view as well. Can you tell me what can be known if there is nothing to know as yet? That’s the future. It’s not here yet, and it doesn’t exist. Are you saying it exists? God has plans for what he will do in it but that is not the same as it actually having any facts that can be known about it. You’re confusing the past and the present with the future.

1. A free will action or decision cannot be known in truth until it is made.
2. God has free will. Men have too many constraints to have free will.

You’re confusing ability to act with ability to choose your actions. If I tie you up and hold a gun in your hand pointed at your head, and cause you to pull the trigger, have I changed your will to live because you had constraints on what you wanted to do? God wanted to gather all of Jerusalem under his wings like a hen does her chicks but they would not come to him. Whose will was restrained there?

1. God can know all about you and your dislikes and preferences and what you would most likely choose to do but it can’t be stated in truth until it happens or it‘s course is set.
2. God knows everything about us. We don't necessarily know the outcome of an event until it happens. God knows what the outcome will be before it happens.

I can agree that God knows the outcome of an event before it happens because he knows what he will allow to happen or stop from happening, not because he saw it happen in his mind off in the future from some distant past point before the world was created. This is a artificial construct of what the words in the Bible mean.

He knows the beginning because he planned and executed it and he knows the end because he has outlined what the final outcome will be and because he will bring it to pass, but he has left the choice to obey and love him up to us. It’s not going to ruin his day if you choose to go to the movies instead of church, if you so choose. You may be all that important to you but God has allowed you to choose and he will live with your decision or deal with it as he deems best. He is not threatened by your ability to reject him.

1. If it isn’t true, God doesn’t know it or God’s knowledge would be wrong. His knowledge can never be wrong.
2. All truth is found in God. No truth exists outside God.

This is a total straw man. Of course all truth is found in God and no truth exists outside God. Can he ‘know’ something is true and it turns out to be false? No, his knowledge is perfect and he knows only what is true and that doesn’t change the fact that the future is unknown because it doesn’t exist and changes moment by moment. Think about it. We both believe 1 as well as 2. Does it pain you to agree with me?

quote by stranger:
God knows what He own will is. If your referring to foreknowing us in Christ / predestination - then I cannot say that it is based upon what choices we make or fail to make:
As far as I can tell: Foreknowledge/ Predestination is not based upon our choices to validate that God made the right choice before Creation.

I know you cannot say that his foreknowledge is based upon what choices we make or fail to make. That would mean that you were responsible for your own destiny and what Jesus taught is true and truly applies to you right now, not some future dispensation. You better get this straight. Your eternity depends on it.

quote by stranger:
No, because what you are offering is the mechanics of foreknowing/predestination that is based upon your subsequent obedience. Have I understood your illustration aright? With foreknowledge and predestination - I want to leave it with God which, if you think about it, is expressed by the term before the foundation of the world.

Yes, you have me pegged here. I believe you have pegged yourself too. You want to leave it with God. Wash your hands of the whole nasty mess and let him clean you up and wipe your nose and put you on his shoulders and carry you to glory. Only it’s not what he promised unless you are a person lacking in comprehension who has no accountability.

I have thought about it for years and I continue to think about it. The term, “before the foundation of the worldâ€Â, refers to God’s Son, the Word that was with him before he created anything. The plan to undo/delete man’s sin by making the Word to be born flesh, was formed “before the foundation of the worldâ€Â, and the choice to save those ‘whosoever will come to Christ’ in the future defines what ‘in Christ’ means here. It is the not only way to interpret those verses, but if you ask me, it is the only way that makes scriptural sense.

quote by stranger:
Linguistically foreknow means to know beforehand. But since we are talking about God and 'those who He foreknew He predestined (in Christ)'. . . I can accept Paul's statement on the basis of faith in Christ. Now there are verses that cause me to be uneasy - but I refuse any false comfort to alleviate this uneasiness. Do questions like this cause you to be uneasy?

There is nothing that precludes the idea that foreknow means to know something ten minutes ago or from the point someone is committed to an idea before they act on it. God could foreknow Christ and his intention to die for the future sins of those who freely chose to disobey when given the choice because Christ existed then. Christ was there at the creation, before the foundation of the world.

Have you ever even attempted to imagine that what I am saying could possibly be true and the implications of that or does it frighten you too much? I was uneasy when I first considered that God did not have to know the future and wondered if he could still be trusted to bring all his will to pass but now I can see it is as it is. He is the great ‘I AM that I AM’ who is right on the cutting edge between the past and the present and the future who knows every nanosecond what has just now happened everywhere and what he needs to do to change his direction to meet the needs of those to whom he has given his word. I’m not skeered, are you?

quote by stranger:
Again, what God has revealed is concrete in the sense that it is propostional truth. I see no conflict with God having a plan for redemption AND a knowledge of those in Christ before Creation. After all God is not like we are though we are made in His image.

That’s because you have not followed that ‘propostional truth’ down every rabbit hole. There are some places it just won’t go. If God has a knowledge of who is ‘saved,’ and all the details of the future, there is nothing future, it is all the past and has already happened and you are just a figment of God’s imagination and you don‘t exist now anymore than you did then in the beginning of creation. There are no choices and when God says ‘choose this day whom you will serve,’ or ’come unto me all you who labor and are heavy laden,’ you don’t really have any choice at all and he is only kidding, lying or being hypocritical.

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote:

To prevent the posts from growing excessively long I have split your reply. This is part of my reply:

Have you ever even attempted to imagine that what I am saying could possibly be true and the implications of that or does it frighten you too much? I was uneasy when I first considered that God did not have to know the future and wondered if he could still be trusted to bring all his will to pass but now I can see it is as it is. He is the great ‘I AM that I AM’ who is right on the cutting edge between the past and the present and the future who knows every nanosecond what has just now happened everywhere and what he needs to do to change his direction to meet the needs of those to whom he has given his word. I’m not scared, are you?

No. I remain confident in theological contructs. I did have an existentialist friend who had a terrifying dream that he sat on a small planet earth as it raced towards a dark unknown.

So there was a progression in your thinking, firstly God did not have to know the future then He could not know the future because the future could not be known. Am I misrepresenting you?

It is about time we mention 'eternal' in connection with God. It is a primary confession of faith that God it eternal. One meaning of eternal is existing outside all relations of time; not subject to change. This is more reasonable and believable than God not knowing the future.

That’s because you have not followed that ‘propostional truth’ down every rabbit hole. There are some places it just won’t go. If God has a knowledge of who is ‘saved,’ and all the details of the future, there is nothing future, it is all the past and has already happened and you are just a figment of God’s imagination and you don‘t exist now anymore than you did then in the beginning of creation. There are no choices and when God says ‘choose this day whom you will serve,’ or ’come unto me all you who labor and are heavy laden,’ you don’t really have any choice at all and he is only kidding, lying or being hypocritical.

Theology was once known as the queen of the sciences. I will rewrite a part of the above paragraph.

If God has a knowledge of who is ‘saved,’ and all the knowledge of the details of the future, there is nothing He doesn't know about the future, it is to Him as the past or the present. Before Creation God foreknew and predestined us in Christ. At Creation we existed in Adam as a future descendants. Now we exist in Christ as a members of His body. There is a choice when God says ‘choose this day whom you will serve,’ or ’come unto me all you who labor and are heavy laden.’

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote:

God’s knowledge is perfect in my view as well. Can you tell me what can be known if there is nothing to know as yet? That’s the future. It’s not here yet, and it doesn’t exist. Are you saying it exists? God has plans for what he will do in it but that is not the same as it actually having any facts that can be known about it.

What can be known about the future is what God has revealed about the future. If God does not and cannot know the future as you suggest how can He reveal anything about the future to us? When you say that there is nothing to know as yet - I disagree.

You’re confusing the past and the present with the future.

Really? Yesterday was the 15th September 07, presently it's the 16th September and tomorrow will be the 17th September. I claim to know that tomorrow will be the 17th September.

You’re confusing ability to act with ability to choose your actions. If I tie you up xxxxx. God wanted to gather all of Jerusalem under his wings like a hen does her chicks but they would not come to him. Whose will was restrained there?

If you have observed this the chicks actually come, and if one doesn't and the others do, upon noticing the one that hasn't races to the mother. We now touch upon the permissive will of God and the decretive will of God. Either way God has and maintains free will. The permissive will of God was resisted.

 

[unred typo]

quote by stranger on Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:33 am
To prevent the posts from growing excessively long I have split your reply. This is part of my reply:

Nice try, but this will be long. :-D

quote by stranger:

I remain confident in theological contructs. I did have an existentialist friend who had a terrifying dream that he sat on a small planet earth as it raced towards a dark unknown.

So there was a progression in your thinking, firstly God did not have to know the future then He could not know the future because the future could not be known. Am I misrepresenting you?

It is about time we mention 'eternal' in connection with God. It is a primary confession of faith that God it eternal. One meaning of eternal is existing outside all relations of time; not subject to change. This is more reasonable and believable than God not knowing the future.

That’s not the way I came about understanding God’s scope of knowledge. First I believed as you do, that every particle of the future was known to God, but somehow not orchestrated by him. I then had a much more detailed, cumbersome and complicated paradigm of how that could happen and still maintain free will. I won’t go into it here but trust me, it worked, at least it appeared to work, just like those never ending staircase drawings.

In reality, when I was forced to consider how the thing was maintained by God, it became apparent that in order for such a scheme to work, the events to the tiniest detail would have to be done already (at least in God’s mind) and be eternally known. God is eternal, and his word is eternal but not all the events of the future. Even the single most benign event such as you brushing your teeth at 12:02 on November 22, 2009 in your red silk jammies would have to be some kind of reality for God to already know it before the world was created. Otherwise, it would be faulty knowledge and not true.

Just consider the fixed events that one future event relies upon in order to be true. The toothbrush had to be invented, the dog didn’t eat it, you have toothpaste, the sink, indoor plumbing, your bathroom, your house, you must still have teeth, you are not a paraplegic, you didn’t fall down the stairs on November 21, you’re not allergic to silk, you didn’t end up in a Disneyland resort motel from a timeshare adventure, a terrorist didn’t bomb your house, and the list goes on infinitum.

I did work out a solution but it was akin to killing houseflies with a shotgun. We won’t even go there. Thankfully, we don’t have to. The objections you have about the future being known/unknown can all be addressed with the simple statement of fact that the knowledge of the events of the future is unknown because it doesn’t exist in a fixed way such as the history of the past exists.

Do you imagine the past exists now or is it over, done, finished, ka-put? Are the Indians still circling the fort and are the pilgrims still huddled in the bunker? No, only the history of the event remains. In the same way, the future doesn’t exist in and of itself. The big difference is, get your pens ready, the future hasn’t happened yet! There is nothing to write. Nothing to see. Nothing to know. It’s not even a big blank page waiting for history to be recorded on it. It doesn’t exist.

So God isn’t deficient in his knowledge. There is no such thing as future history that he has to memorize the dates and presidents and battles in order. Does he have plans for the future? Definitely. Can he bring them to pass? Of course, he’s God. Only he could do it. He controls what happens in the present that might mess up those plans. If you think up a super bomb that will blow up the world so Jesus can’t return, what do you think are your chances of setting it off? Nil. Oh, he might let you build it and on the morning of your planned disaster, you might slip on your red silk jammies you dropped on the bathroom floor and jam the toothbrush down your throat and choke to death on your favorite bubblegum flavored toothpaste. No one can change God’s plans. He’s not worried. Neither am I. My confidence is in him. He will do what he has promised and foretold.

quote by stranger:

If God has a knowledge of who is ‘saved,’ and all the knowledge of the details of the future, there is nothing He doesn't know about the future, it is to Him as the past or the present. Before Creation God foreknew and predestined us in Christ. At Creation we existed in Adam as a future descendants. Now we exist in Christ as a members of His body. There is a choice when God says ‘choose this day whom you will serve,’ or ’come unto me all you who labor and are heavy laden.’

Ok, here is where it get’s easy to understand but impossible almost to explain. I have tried time and time again but few even get what I’m saying before heating up the ‘heretic’ branding iron. You got this far so I’ll try again. The key word phrase is ‘in Christ’. We were predestined to obtain salvation in Christ as a group but yet as individuals. Oh oh. I feel an analogy overcoming me. We hate those.

It’s like President and the Army. The President ordained that whosoever (individual person) is in the Army will be sent to Iraq or Afghanistan to fight for a time in the war against terrorism. My nephew is ‘in the Army’ as an individual but part of the group by his own choice and therefore part of those elected to go. The President’s call for troops went out before he became a soldier, in the beginning of the war. The President foreknew those in the Army and those who join the Army in the future will be foreordained to this destiny before he even made the announcement to go to war. Did the President know him personally when he became one of the chosen to go to Iraq? No, but he became part of the elect by his decision to join the Army. He was predestined to a tour in Iraq by his joining the Army just as surely as if the President himself had handpicked him to go.

In the same way, we are chosen from the beginning as individuals and part of the elect when we are in Christ. (think: in the Army against Satan) God foreordained those ‘in Christ’ to be chosen and elected to various promises and callings. You have free will to join in the Army of Christ but when you join, you become part of those chosen from the beginning of the world, because that is when God made the decision to elect those in Christ to be outfitted with the armor of God, forgiven by repentance, sins washed away in his blood, conformed to the image of his son, adopted, etc..

Do you see what I mean? :-?

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote:

The objections you have about the future being known/unknown can all be addressed with the simple statement of fact that the knowledge of the events of the future is unknown because it doesn’t exist in a fixed way such as the history of the past exists.

You say that the future is unknown because it doesn't exist. What you have to take into account is the change that occurs after a period of time.

A simply test. . . I make three simple statements today on the 17th September, and seal them in an envelope for 24 hours.

The three statements sealed in an envelope are:

1. the past, yesterday, was the 17th September.
2. the present, today is the 18th September.
3. the future, tomorrow, will be the 19th September.

24 hours, ie on the 18th September, I open the envelope and read the statements.
I make the following observations:

By taking into account change over 24 hours I managed to make true statements about the future, namely: Statements 1, 2, and 3 are true.

If the future is unknown and doesn't exist:
How could I know something about the future?
How could I make a statement about the future that is true if it doesn't exist?

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote:

That’s not the way I came about understanding God’s scope of knowledge. First I believed as you do, that every particle of the future was known to God, but somehow not orchestrated by Him. I then had a much more detailed, cumbersome and complicated paradigm of how that could happen and still maintain free will.

If every particle of the future was known by God its logical to say that everything was orchestrated by Him through, e.g. the laws of physics which God invented and governs. I somehow think you were overwhelmed by the details. What you say below further leads me to believe that:

In reality, when I was forced to consider how the thing was maintained by God, it became apparent that in order for such a scheme to work, the events to the tiniest detail would have to be done already (at least in God’s mind) and be eternally known.

This is symptomatic of a philosopher becoming overwhelmed by the details. . .

God is eternal, and his word is eternal but not all the events of the future. Even the single most benign event such as you brushing your teeth at 12:02 on November 22, 2009 in your red silk jammies would have to be some kind of reality for God to already know it before the world was created. Otherwise, it would be faulty knowledge and not true. Just consider the fixed events that one future event relies upon in order to be true. . .

I did work out a solution but it was akin to killing houseflies with a shotgun. We won’t even go there. Thankfully, we don’t have to. The objections you have about the future being known/unknown can all be addressed with the simple statement of fact that the knowledge of the events of the future is unknown because it doesn’t exist in a fixed way such as the history of the past exists.

The simple statement of fact needs to be tested before you claim it to be true. There is association and continuity between the past, present and the future. I really think that the starting point for testing your assertion is with God:
1. start with God existing and no creation at this point.
2. Next God creates the world.

Since time can be demonstarted to be a created entity, it would be ridiculous to state that God who created time, past, present and future did not have complete knowledge and mastery over it.
The evidence is that God manages the universe and Christians believe that the physical laws are God's laws insofar as they are true.

So it is no good stating that God cannot know the future as a fact because you cannot prove it. Even men can accurately predict the future an example of which I have posted separately. If you want to do an experiment - make it simple in a controlled environment. It is the environment that is often the hinderance.

God is eternal and exists outside all relations of time; not subject to change.

 

[unred typo]

quote by stranger on Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:49 am
unred typo wrote:
“That’s not the way I came about understanding God’s scope of knowledge. First I believed as you do, that every particle of the future was known to God, but somehow not orchestrated by Him. I then had a much more detailed, cumbersome and complicated paradigm of how that could happen and still maintain free will.â€Â


If every particle of the future was known by God its logical to say that everything was orchestrated by Him through, e.g. the laws of physics which God invented and governs. I somehow think you were overwhelmed by the details. What you say below further leads me to believe that:

unred typo wrote:
In reality, when I was forced to consider how the thing was maintained by God, it became apparent that in order for such a scheme to work, the events to the tiniest detail would have to be done already (at least in God’s mind) and be eternally known.


This is symptomatic of a philosopher becoming overwhelmed by the details. . .

Why do you think they say, ‘the devil is in the details’? The details are where you realize that it ain’t that simple. In fact, it gets quite ugly. I have no problem believing that God could know all the details of a created and orchestrated future. What I have a problem with is understanding the Bible in the light of such a theory. It doesn’t work. If you think it does, you better rethink it.

quote by stranger:
unred typo wrote:
God is eternal, and his word is eternal but not all the events of the future. Even the single most benign event such as you brushing your teeth at 12:02 on November 22, 2009 in your red silk jammies would have to be some kind of reality for God to already know it before the world was created. Otherwise, it would be faulty knowledge and not true. Just consider the fixed events that one future event relies upon in order to be true. . .


unred typo wrote:
I did work out a solution but it was akin to killing houseflies with a shotgun. We won’t even go there. Thankfully, we don’t have to. The objections you have about the future being known/unknown can all be addressed with the simple statement of fact that the knowledge of the events of the future is unknown because it doesn’t exist in a fixed way such as the history of the past exists.


The simple statement of fact needs to be tested before you claim it to be true. There is association and continuity between the past, present and the future. I really think that the starting point for testing your assertion is with God:
1. start with God existing and no creation at this point.
2. Next God creates the world.

Since time can be demonstarted to be a created entity, it would be ridiculous to state that God who created time, past, present and future did not have complete knowledge and mastery over it.
The evidence is that God manages the universe and Christians believe that the physical laws are God's laws insofar as they are true.

“Since time can be demonstrated to be a created entity,†Say what?? …wait a minute… we haven’t established that at all. Not even close. Chapter/verse, please. I don’t see time as created or any type of entity. It’s a concept, a way to measure, like weight or height or distance.

quote by stranger:
So it is no good stating that God cannot know the future as a fact because you cannot prove it. Even men can accurately predict the future an example of which I have posted separately. If you want to do an experiment - make it simple in a controlled environment. It is the environment that is often the hinderance.

God is eternal and exists outside all relations of time; not subject to change.

Well, I could prove it the same way you proved that “time can be demonstrated to be a created entity,†…that was a piece of cake. You just stated it and charged ahead to build your case on top of your own statement. No fair.

Man cannot accurately predict the future. Never and not once. They may get lucky and predict what will happen and it doesn’t get messed up, but if God doesn’t want their prediction to come true, it ain’t gonna happen, not once, no way. Only God can accurately predict the future with 100% accuracy. He has the clout to make it happen and no one can thwart his plans.

God can and does change his own mind and his own plans. What doesn’t change are his holy principles, his non aging attributes, his non diminishing power and his foundation of truth. Read these and explain how God’s plans can change in these instances if they were set from the beginning of time:

Exodus 13:17
And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

This shows God’s uncertainty of how the people will react when they meet opposition.

1 Chronicles 21:15
And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

The amount of destruction was not already set ahead of time.

Jeremiah 26:13
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

There is a distinct ‘if’ here.

Ezekiel 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

A choice to repent or not.

Amos 7:6
The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

God changes his mind.

Jonah 3:10
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
God again changes his mind.

Genesis 18:20-21
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God must see what their reaction to the angels he sends before he can determine how wicked they have become.

There are hundreds of other instances that could be sited of God changing the plans he had made based on the free will actions of man. I don’t have a problem with this in my theology. The future is not predetermined. What do you do with these?

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote:

Why do you think they say, ‘the devil is in the details’? The details are where you realize that it ain’t that simple. In fact, it gets quite ugly. I have no problem believing that God could know all the details of a created and orchestrated future. What I have a problem with is understanding the Bible in the light of such a theory. It doesn’t work. If you think it does, you better rethink it.

The theories of science don't bother me in the least. I don't try to interpret revelation in the light of science (on this we agree) but what I am saying is that revelation is not to be interpreted in the light of Philosophical theories either.

“Since time can be demonstrated to be a created entity,†Say what?? …wait a minute… we haven’t established that at all. Not even close. Chapter/verse, please. I don’t see time as created or any type of entity. It’s a concept, a way to measure, like weight or height or distance.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth Genesis 1:1. (ex nihilo) Then there is a text that you have quoted yourself: without Him was not anything made that was made. (john chapter 1.)

You do not see time as created or any type of entity? Well the most universal symbol of time is a clock. What it is made of is created matter. The men who decided to standardise the duration of a time interval were created. The physical laws that have time as an constant or variable actually explain how things operate in this world. It is all of the created order it is not Spirit. But why discuss all this?

Well, I could prove it the same way you proved that “time can be demonstrated to be a created entity,†…that was a piece of cake. You just stated it and charged ahead to build your case on top of your own statement. No fair.

I assumed that it I did not need to prove it to you. I did point out that 'God is eternal and exists outside all relations of time; not subject to change.' Believe it or not most Christians would accept this. . . I certainly do. If you want to call time something other than a dimension that's ok. I will call it a dimension. Length, height etc are all dimensions - they measure something. The something they measure pertains to the physical world that we can see and touch. For this reason they pertain to the created order - the physical and we know that the physical is created. To be sure there are also created spiritual beings which belong to the spiritual realm and these cannot be measured in this way.

Man cannot accurately predict the future. Never and not once. They may get lucky and predict what will happen and it doesn’t get messed up, but if God doesn’t want their prediction to come true, it ain’t gonna happen, not once, no way. Only God can accurately predict the future with 100% accuracy. He has the clout to make it happen and no one can thwart his plans.

Let's focus on man predicting the future. I agree if God wanted to stop it He could. God stopping the predictions from coming true are not what this discussion is about. We are talking about your statements:
The future cannot be known
and the future doesn't exist.

If in the present I can predict an event that is still future once, what then? I am not intent on predicting anything provative to God's will, buy merely demonstrate at this early stage, that a future event can be predicted.

God can and does change his own mind and his own plans. What doesn’t change are his holy principles, his non aging attributes, his non diminishing power and his foundation of truth. Read these and explain how God’s plans can change in these instances if they were set from the beginning of time:

Exodus 13:17
And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

This shows God’s uncertainty of how the people will react when they meet opposition.

1 Chronicles 21:15
And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

The amount of destruction was not already set ahead of time.

Jeremiah 26:13
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

There is a distinct ‘if’ here.

Ezekiel 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

A choice to repent or not.

Amos 7:6
The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

God changes his mind.

Jonah 3:10
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
God again changes his mind.

Genesis 18:20-21
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God must see what their reaction to the angels he sends before he can determine how wicked they have become.

There are hundreds of other instances that could be sited of God changing the plans he had made based on the free will actions of man. I don’t have a problem with this in my theology. The future is not predetermined. What do you do with these?

Slow down, I haven't used the word 'predetermined' yet. I am still talking about the future existing or not and that it can be known or not.

 

[stranger]

unred typo

To stick to one topic per post, and to stop the posts from getting excessively long, here is how I understand time: A dimension and unit of measurement: from . . .nanoseconds, seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months and years. . . millenium. . .

So from nanoseconds to a millenium time is essentially the duration of the interval between t2 and t1. It's an agreed upon standard. Call time units what you will the 'intervals exist' and that is what it is about.

In Christian faith we maintain the distinction between the Creator and the creation. Before creation was have God and only God or very God as it is sometimes expressed ie the person and being of God who Christians accept as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Before Creation did time exist? I would say no because all we have is the eternal God. If time is the interval between t2 and t1 as defined above where do we insert this interval in the eternal God? There is little point in talking about 'intervals or duration' however long or short in reference to God before creation. Eternity not time is of God.

Hence before creation: 'God is eternal and exists outside all relations of time; not subject to change'. Do you agree so far?

Next we turn to creation. From the Christian perpective we now have a beginning at creation of all things visible and invisible. After creation we also have the fall of man, the incarnation of Christ and the end of the age. So God created all things except 'evil' I might add. If we look at history Christians can say that it is linear . . . it has purpose from the start to finish.

Since time can be seen to be created from Genesis 1, we can call the intervals 'day' at this stage. God separated the light from the darkness and call the light day - we have what we call time. Time then is of the created order and part of this created world. I know that many Philosophers will violently objection to this creationist view 'let there be light' . . I know that there are people who don't believe time exists but if you think about time as an interval - whether it be a nanosecond or a millenium it is quantitative as a physical measurement. It is not purely theoretical - there really is sometime to it though it's hard to explain. To summarise then:

1. 'God is eternal and exists outside all relations of time; not subject to change'.2. 'Time is a creation of God and of the created order'.

Does this make sense to you?

 

[unred typo]

quote by stranger on Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:21 am
The theories of science don't bother me in the least. I don't try to interpret revelation in the light of science (on this we agree) but what I am saying is that revelation is not to be interpreted in the light of Philosophical theories either.

What I expressed is not a ‘Philosophical theory’, it is only God given common sense.

quote by stranger:

Unred typo wrote: “Since time can be demonstrated to be a created entity,†Say what?? …wait a minute… we haven’t established that at all. Not even close. Chapter/verse, please. I don’t see time as created or any type of entity. It’s a concept, a way to measure, like weight or height or distance.â€Â

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth Genesis 1:1. (ex nihilo) Then there is a text that you have quoted yourself: without Him was not anything made that was made. (john chapter 1.)

You do not see time as created or any type of entity? Well the most universal symbol of time is a clock. What it is made of is created matter. The men who decided to standardise the duration of a time interval were created. The physical laws that have time as an constant or variable actually explain how things operate in this world. It is all of the created order it is not Spirit. But why discuss all this?

We may not be able to discuss all this at all. If you think making a clock or devising a system to record time is creating time, we won’t get past square one. Think about this. If your son asks you when are you going to spend some time with him, do you think he will be satisfied if you hand him a watch and say “Here‘s some time. Would you like a calendar, too?†?

You still owe me a verse, btw. Neither of those say, “In the beginning God created time†or “without Him was not any time made that was made.â€Â

quote by stranger:
I assumed that it I did not need to prove it to you. I did point out that 'God is eternal and exists outside all relations of time; not subject to change.' Believe it or not most Christians would accept this. . . I certainly do. If you want to call time something other than a dimension that's ok. I will call it a dimension. Length, height etc are all dimensions - they measure something. The something they measure pertains to the physical world that we can see and touch. For this reason they pertain to the created order - the physical and we know that the physical is created. To be sure there are also created spiritual beings which belong to the spiritual realm and these cannot be measured in this way.

Most Christians hear a new idea and run to their pastor like Chicken Little to find out if the world will end if they think it. He tells them whether it’s OK to hold such a view or not and they run home to get a basket to put it in. I’m really quite dismayed at what most Christians believe.

If I want to call time something other than a dimension that's ok??? I was the one who said that I “don’t see time as created or any type of entity. It’s a concept, a way to measure, like weight or height or distance.†The concept I was referring to was a ‘dimension.’
So, yes, by all means call it a dimension. It’s a way to measure the passing of the present into the past.

Time is not an entity or a place or a thing or somewhere we can fly to and get there in a souped up De Lorean. You can’t hold it in your hand and it’s not bigger than a bread box. It’s not a thing you can stand in or climb out of. You can’t run faster and get beyond right now, this second, the ever present present. It’s always ‘now.’ ‘Now’ is always turning into ‘then.’ We can’t go back to ‘then’ and we can’t go ahead to next week, we’re stuck right here in the present. God is stuck right here too. He says, I AM that I AM. I believe God is eternal and exists in the present, just like we do. There is no reason to go sci-fi and say he is “outside all relations of time; not subject to change.†He doesn’t age or diminish in his attributes but he is not outside of time… there is no such place.

quote by stranger:
Let's focus on man predicting the future. I agree if God wanted to stop it He could. God stopping the predictions from coming true are not what this discussion is about. We are talking about your statements:
The future cannot be known
and the future doesn't exist.

If in the present I can predict an event that is still future once, what then? I am not intent on predicting anything provative to God's will, buy merely demonstrate at this early stage, that a future event can be predicted.

The future cannot be foretold by man with 100% accuracy. Only God’s prophets can do that and only when God tells them what to say. Probabilities are not prophesies, btw. Name one. I’ll stand on my statements. There is nothing ‘in the future’ to be known
because the future doesn't exist yet.

.