Predestination and Election

[unred typo]

Part 2, quote by stranger on Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:27 pm:

To stick to one topic per post, and to stop the posts from getting excessively long, here is how I understand time: A dimension and unit of measurement: from . . .nanoseconds, seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months and years. . . millenium. . .

So from nanoseconds to a millenium time is essentially the duration of the interval between t2 and t1. It's an agreed upon standard. Call time units what you will the 'intervals exist' and that is what it is about.

In Christian faith we maintain the distinction between the Creator and the creation. Before creation was have God and only God or very God as it is sometimes expressed ie the person and being of God who Christians accept as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Before Creation did time exist? I would say no because all we have is the eternal God. If time is the interval between t2 and t1 as defined above where do we insert this interval in the eternal God? There is little point in talking about 'intervals or duration' however long or short in reference to God before creation. Eternity not time is of God.

Why would you think time didn’t exist? God would be in the present just like he is now. Even if there wasn’t a past or future, there still would be a present, because God is the Great ‘I AM .’ The passage of time is why there is an eternity past and an eternity future. God’s thoughts change and appear in consistent order.

quote by stranger :
Hence before creation: 'God is eternal and exists outside all relations of time; not subject to change'. Do you agree so far?

I made it all the way to ‘God is eternal’ but you have not proven that he exists ‘outside all relations of time’, whatever that is supposed to mean. I agree his nature and attributes are ageless and not subject to decay or to diminish.

quote by stranger Next we turn to creation. From the Christian perpective we now have a beginning at creation of all things visible and invisible. After creation we also have the fall of man, the incarnation of Christ and the end of the age. So God created all things except 'evil' I might add. If we look at history Christians can say that it is linear . . . it has purpose from the start to finish.

The beginning is not the beginning of time, just our knowledge of it and the world and mankind in it.

quote by stranger Since time can be seen to be created from Genesis 1, we can call the intervals 'day' at this stage. God separated the light from the darkness and call the light day - we have what we call time. Time then is of the created order and part of this created world. I know that many Philosophers will violently objection to this creationist view 'let there be light' . . I know that there are people who don't believe time exists but if you think about time as an interval - whether it be a nanosecond or a millenium it is quantitative as a physical measurement. It is not purely theoretical - there really is sometime to it though it's hard to explain.

God separated the light from the darkness and called the light; day - that means we have what we call ‘daylight,’ not ‘time.’ We even have a name for the passing of darkness into daylight…. Evening and morning, the first day. You’re confusing the winding up of the clock with the time the clock is ticking off. It took time for God to think all of the creation up and it took time for him to plan all the laws and workings of it before he actually started to speak it into existence. Just because time didn’t take a toll on God, doesn’t mean that it didn’t pass. ‘Eternal’ just means he was always in existence and forever will be.

quote by stranger
To summarise then:

1. 'God is eternal and exists outside all relations of time; not subject to change'.2. 'Time is a creation of God and of the created order'.

Does this make sense to you?

No, it’s still all wrong, except the ‘God is eternal’ part. Change it to:
1. 'God is eternal and always existed throughout time; not subject to discrepancy and aging in his unchanging attributes and character'.
2. 'Time is the duration of the movement of the present into the past during which God accomplishes all his works of creation.’

Time is not a thing, it’s the duration of ‘now’ in relation to ‘then.’

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote:

Why would you think time didn’t exist?

Because the time interval presupposes change. What I am saying it is that God did not change before or prior to creating everything. The affirmation 'I am that I am' was in response to Moses question: Who are you Lord? I understand this to mean 'I exist for I exist' or something along those lines. Moses anticipated the question of the Hebrews : Who sent you (Moses)?

The beginning is not the beginning of time, just our knowledge of it and the world and mankind in it.

I see the work of Creation as the beginning of everthing except and only except God.

God separated the light from the darkness and called the light; day - that means we have what we call ‘daylight,’ not ‘time.’ We even have a name for the passing of darkness into daylight…. Evening and morning, the first day. You’re confusing the winding up of the clock with the time the clock is ticking off. It took time for God to think all of the creation up and it took time for him to plan all the laws and workings of it before he actually started to speak it into existence. Just because time didn’t take a toll on God, doesn’t mean that it didn’t pass. ‘Eternal’ just means he was always in existence and forever will be.

You were supposed to make the connection within the Genesis 1:1 to about 2:4 etc. But the verse(s) I owe you: Genesis 1:
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:
15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Daylight is physical created light that is defined roughly by sunset /sunrise. Our Sun the greater light produces this light. All this is created: the earth, sun. rotation of the planets around the sun etc. The interval of time 'day' is seen only in this relation. Therefore I affirm that the interval of time is created and is of the created order.

God is light. This refers to non physical light - Spirit. This is not created.

'God is eternal and exists outside all relations of time; not subject to change'.2. 'Time is a creation of God and of the created order'.

No, it’s still all wrong, except the ‘God is eternal’ part. Change it to:
1. 'God is eternal and always existed throughout time; not subject to discrepancy and aging in his unchanging attributes and character'.
2. 'Time is the duration of the movement of the present into the past during which God accomplishes all his works of creation.’
Time is not a thing, it’s the duration of ‘now’ in relation to ‘then.’

No, although God existed throughout time He also existed before time. I keep stressing before Creation to maintain the distinction between the Creator and the creation. This distinction is critical in that nothing existed with God that was of the created order. Only God of very God.

Existing throughout time automatically places my thinking after Creation was finished. Because of this when God first utters the words 'Let there be. . . He spoke as God of very God. From the appearance of phyical matter out of nothing all the elements which time intervals require to exist were created.

If we consider the consequences of God before creation in which time existed- presumably an infinite regression would occur. The eternally present God would be regressing into the past eternally. Infinite regression from the present to the past has no appeal to me.

 

[unred typo]

quote by stranger:
unred typo wrote: “Why would you think time didn’t exist?â€Â


Because the time interval presupposes change. What I am saying it is that God did not change before or prior to creating everything. The affirmation 'I am that I am' was in response to Moses question: Who are you Lord? I understand this to mean 'I exist for I exist' or something along those lines. Moses anticipated the question of the Hebrews : Who sent you (Moses)?

Unred: The beginning is not the beginning of time, just our knowledge of it and the world and mankind in it.


I see the work of Creation as the beginning of everthing except and only except God.

God separated the light from the darkness and called the light; day - that means we have what we call ‘daylight,’ not ‘time.’ We even have a name for the passing of darkness into daylight…. Evening and morning, the first day. You’re confusing the winding up of the clock with the time the clock is ticking off. It took time for God to think all of the creation up and it took time for him to plan all the laws and workings of it before he actually started to speak it into existence. Just because time didn’t take a toll on God, doesn’t mean that it didn’t pass. ‘Eternal’ just means he was always in existence and forever will be.


You were supposed to make the connection within the Genesis 1:1 to about 2:4 etc. But the verse(s) I owe you: Genesis 1:
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:
15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Daylight is physical created light that is defined roughly by sunset /sunrise. Our Sun the greater light produces this light. All this is created: the earth, sun. rotation of the planets around the sun etc. The interval of time 'day' is seen only in this relation. Therefore I affirm that the interval of time is created and is of the created order.

God is light. This refers to non physical light - Spirit. This is not created.

God’s creation of daylight and night, sun, moon and stars is not the creation of time, but the creation of a timepiece. He said let them be for signs, seasons and for days and years for those dwelling on the earth. He wants us to know what time it is. One of the things in the book of Enoch is the importance that is given to the knowledge of when the seasons change and the counting of the years they mark off. The sun and planets movement are the movement of a clock for us. Enoch wrote a book on how to tell time by the motion of them.

quote by stranger
'God is eternal and exists outside all relations of time; not subject to change'.2. 'Time is a creation of God and of the created order'.

Unred: No, it’s still all wrong, except the ‘God is eternal’ part. Change it to:
1. 'God is eternal and always existed throughout time; not subject to discrepancy and aging in his unchanging attributes and character'.
2. 'Time is the duration of the movement of the present into the past during which God accomplishes all his works of creation.’
Time is not a thing, it’s the duration of ‘now’ in relation to ‘then.’


No, although God existed throughout time He also existed before time. I keep stressing before Creation to maintain the distinction between the Creator and the creation. This distinction is critical in that nothing existed with God that was of the created order. Only God of very God.

Existing throughout time automatically places my thinking after Creation was finished. Because of this when God first utters the words 'Let there be. . . He spoke as God of very God. From the appearance of phyical matter out of nothing all the elements which time intervals require to exist were created.

If we consider the consequences of God before creation in which time existed- presumably an infinite regression would occur. The eternally present God would be regressing into the past eternally. Infinite regression from the present to the past has no appeal to me.

If you mean that God existed before the creation of our time clock, the motion of the sun, moon, and planets, I could agree. But time marks even the motion of God himself, his thoughts, his words, his heartbeats, if you will. It is not an entity that exists outside of God or inside of God. It is a way of uniformly marking the passing of this interval between past and present. It isn’t even anything we can measure except with a great deal of crudity. How long is it between present and past? When exactly does the present time become the past time? It’s ‘now’ and then before you can even blink, ‘now’ becomes ‘then’. I believe there would have been a ‘now’ and a ‘then’ before God created. Do you not believe that he planned the universes and all the workings of them before he spoke them into existence? How could there not be intervals of activity in eternity past? God would not exist if there were not thoughts and words of God and without the word nothing was made that was made. Your problem is you can’t get the concept that time is not a thing that was made. The creation of a clock is not the creation of time itself.

Infinite regression from the present to the past has no appeal to me either. We hate it but that’s the way it goes.

 

[stranger]

Hi unred typo

Here is a summary. Feel free to make changes if you so desire. Please nothing long – it is meant as a summary. I have tried to observe a correspondence in the numbering. The question section is meant for pointed questions that you or I think the other has not adequately answered. Again apologies for the philosophical nature of this discussion.

SUMMARY STATEMENT

Unred typo

1. God exists in present eternity and past eternity. Past and present are descriptive of time.
2. God’s eternity present regresses to eternity past every moment.
3. ‘In the beginning’ is not the beginning of time, just out knowledge of it an mankind in it.
4. God’s activity presupposes intervals of activity in eternity past.
5.


Stranger

1. The eternal God existed before creation without past, present, or future in eternity.
2. God is not subject to change, time interval’s or regression.
3. ‘In the beginning’ marks the beginning of time at creation.
4. God is both active and at rest eternally.
5.

questions to unred typo
1.
2.
3.

questions to stranger typo
1.
2.
3.

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote: “Why would you think time didn’t exist?â€Â

Unred:

The beginning is not the beginning of time, just our knowledge of it and the world and mankind in it.

If ‘in the beginning. . .’ is not the beginning of time but the beginning of our knowledge of time how can you comment about time prior to creation? If creation is the beginning of our knowledge (of time) we have no knowledge of time prior to creation. You actually assume that time exists prior to creation but you cannot prove it. It would be difficult enough a task for both of us to understand eternity from our temporal spheres.

Similarly when you speak about eternity past, eternity present (and eternity future) you have taken some baggage with you into eternity. Put simply you have taken time with you into eternity.

God separated the light from the darkness and called the light; day - that means we have what we call ‘daylight,’ not ‘time.’ We even have a name for the passing of darkness into daylight…. Evening and morning, the first day. You’re confusing the winding up of the clock with the time the clock is ticking off. It took time for God to think all of the creation up and it took time for him to plan all the laws and workings of it before he actually started to speak it into existence. Just because time didn’t take a toll on God, doesn’t mean that it didn’t pass. ‘Eternal’ just means he was always in existence and forever will be.

Are you saying that a day is not a measure of time? Surely not.

Genesis 1:
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:
15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

God’s creation of daylight and night, sun, moon and stars is not the creation of time, but the creation of a timepiece. He said let them be for signs, seasons and for days and years for those dwelling on the earth. He wants us to know what time it is. One of the things in the book of Enoch is the importance that is given to the knowledge of when the seasons change and the counting of the years they mark off. The sun and planets movement are the movement of a clock for us. Enoch wrote a book on how to tell time by the motion of them.

Friend, days and years are time as well as a measure thereof. It's a 'duration' you said that yourself.

If you mean that God existed before the creation of our time clock, the motion of the sun, moon, and planets, I could agree. But time marks even the motion of God himself, his thoughts, his words, his heartbeats, if you will. It is not an entity that exists outside of God or inside of God. It is a way of uniformly marking the passing of this interval between past and present. It isn’t even anything we can measure except with a great deal of crudity. How long is it between present and past? When exactly does the present time become the past time? It’s ‘now’ and then before you can even blink, ‘now’ becomes ‘then’. I believe there would have been a ‘now’ and a ‘then’ before God created. Do you not believe that he planned the universes and all the workings of them before he spoke them into existence? How could there not be intervals of activity in eternity past? God would not exist if there were not thoughts and words of God and without the word nothing was made that was made. Your problem is you can’t get the concept that time is not a thing that was made. The creation of a clock is not the creation of time itself.

Infinite regression from the present to the past has no appeal to me either. We hate it but that’s the way it goes.

The fact is that we have one life and that is ticking away day by day and when the number is complete- as far as this sourjourn goes - time ceases to be the ruthless regression. I think the emphasis on life is better than time. Did all this start with those whom He foreknew and predestined before the foundation of the world?

 

[unred typo]

quote by stranger on Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:23 pm
Hi unred typo

Here is a summary. Feel free to make changes if you so desire. Please nothing long – it is meant as a summary. I have tried to observe a correspondence in the numbering. The question section is meant for pointed questions that you or I think the other has not adequately answered. Again apologies for the philosophical nature of this discussion.

Hello again, stranger… I made as few adjustments to your outline as possible. I may have to tweak it again after hearing your questions. It’s not like I had eternity to plan this out… :wink:

SUMMARY STATEMENT

Unred typo

1. God exists in present eternity and past eternity. Past and present are descriptive of time.
2. God’s eternity present regresses to eternity past every moment.
3. ‘In the beginning’ means the beginning of all things created and does not mark the beginning of time at creation since time is not a ‘thing‘ to create.
4. God’s activity presupposes intervals of planning activity in eternity past.
5.

Stranger

1. The eternal God existed before creation without past, present, or future in eternity.
2. God is not subject to change, time interval’s or regression.
3. ‘In the beginning’ marks the beginning of time at creation.
4. God is both active and at rest eternally.
5.

questions to unred typo
1.
2.
3.
Waiting patiently…

‘questions to stranger typo?’ Do you mean ‘from typo’ or are you getting stranger? Was that a stranger typo or an ordinary typo? If a typo is unread, is it still a typo? But I digress… Sorry, on to the real questions… :wink:
1. How could the future not exist in the past before creation if he always knew it eternally?
2. How could he be present in the past before creation if there was once no present to be present in?
3. How could there be a time when there was no time if there was no time?
4. If God is at rest and active at the same time, why did he rest after six days of activity?

 

[unred typo]

Now I see why breaking up these posts is not such a good idea. We’re going to be talking past each other.

quote by stranger on Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:38 am
unred typo wrote: “Why would you think time didn’t exist? The beginning is not the beginning of time, just our knowledge of it and the world and mankind in it.â€Â


If ‘in the beginning. . .’ is not the beginning of time but the beginning of our knowledge of time how can you comment about time prior to creation? If creation is the beginning of our knowledge (of time) we have no knowledge of time prior to creation. You actually assume that time exists prior to creation but you cannot prove it. It would be difficult enough a task for both of us to understand eternity from our temporal spheres.

Similarly when you speak about eternity past, eternity present (and eternity future) you have taken some baggage with you into eternity. Put simply you have taken time with you into eternity.

Exactly my point. I haven’t taken time into a time when there was no time because such a thing could not happen. When you read “In the beginning was the Word†the word ‘was’ tells of a past time before the beginning of the creation of us and our world.

quote by stranger :
Are you saying that a day is not a measure of time? Surely not.

Of course a day is a measure of time. A measure of time at creation was the duration of the interval between each division of creation. The time interval of a day existed before the actual movement of the sun or earth since the sun was not even created until day four.

quote by stranger :
Unred wrote: “God’s creation of daylight and night, sun, moon and stars is not the creation of time, but the creation of a timepiece. He said let them be for signs, seasons and for days and years for those dwelling on the earth. He wants us to know what time it is. One of the things in the book of Enoch is the importance that is given to the knowledge of when the seasons change and the counting of the years they mark off. The sun and planets movement are the movement of a clock for us. Enoch wrote a book on how to tell time by the motion of them.â€Â


Friend, days and years are time as well as a measure thereof. It's a 'duration' you said that yourself.

The duration of time is not a created thing, it’s the interval during which a thing is created. When I ask how long did God plan the universe before he spoke it into existence, I am speaking of time in the purest sense of the word. When I ask did time exist before creation, I am taking some baggage with the question because time doesn’t really exist at all. It isn’t a person, place or thing at all.

quote by stranger :

Unred wrote:“If you mean that God existed before the creation of our time clock, the motion of the sun, moon, and planets, I could agree. But time marks even the motion of God himself, his thoughts, his words, his heartbeats, if you will. It is not an entity that exists outside of God or inside of God. It is a way of uniformly marking the passing of this interval between past and present.
It isn’t even anything we can measure except with a great deal of crudity. How long is it between present and past? When exactly does the present time become the past time? It’s ‘now’ and then before you can even blink, ‘now’ becomes ‘then’. I believe there would have been a ‘now’ and a ‘then’ before God created. Do you not believe that he planned the universes and all the workings of them before he spoke them into existence? How could there not be intervals of activity in eternity past? God would not exist if there were not thoughts and words of God and without the word nothing was made that was made. Your problem is you can’t get the concept that time is not a thing that was made. The creation of a clock is not the creation of time itself.
Infinite regression from the present to the past has no appeal to me either. We hate it but that’s the way it goes.â€Â


The fact is that we have one life and that is ticking away day by day and when the number is complete- as far as this sourjourn goes - time ceases to be the ruthless regression. I think the emphasis on life is better than time. Did all this start with those whom He foreknew and predestined before the foundation of the world?

Yes, we are discussing this because of the OP topic, and if there was no time before the foundation of the world, there would be no time that God planned anything because he wouldn’t have had time to. :wink:

Don't forget to go back to the last post. Some of it will answer this one.

 

[stranger]

Hi unred typo

SUMMARY STATEMENT

Unred typo

1. God exists in present eternity and past eternity. Past and present are descriptive of time.
2. God’s eternity present regresses to eternity past every moment.
3. ‘In the beginning’ means the beginning of all things created and does not mark the beginning of time at creation since time is not a ‘thing‘ to create.
4. God’s activity presupposes intervals of planning activity in eternity past.
5.

Stranger

1. The eternal God existed before creation without past, present, or future in eternity.
2. God is not subject to change, time interval’s or regression.
3. ‘In the beginning’ marks the beginning of time at creation.
4. God exhibits both activity and rest eternally.
5.

questions to stranger
1. How could the future not exist in the past before creation if he always knew it eternally?
I don't speak of future or past before creation. All I say is that God knew eternally those whom He foreknew and predestined before Creation. We do not have the metaphysics or otherwise of how it happened. But the solitary facts in this verse are consist with the view that God knows all things. Your the one who talks about eternity past and eternity present, not me. Again there is no frame of reference. past, present or future in the Person of God prior to creation. ie the eternal God existed and creation didn't.

Romans 8:29-30 (NASB)
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
The highlighted red shows what God did before creation. The highlighted green called is after creation.

2. How could he be present in the past before creation if there was once no present to be present in?
I don't speak of present or past before creation. Prior to creation God existed eternally. This means that He has no beginning and no end.

3. How could there be a time when there was no time if there was no time?
I don't call eternity 'time.' Prior to creation the eternal God existed. Nothing else existed - but only God. There is the true basis for creation out of nothing. Talk to me about time in this creation.

4. If God is at rest and active at the same time, why did he rest after six days of activity?
God rested in the 7th day because He finished His work of creation. So in creation there is both activity and rest. The day of rest is a sanctifying work! Prior to creation God shows activity in foreknowledge and predestination of those in Christ. God who exhibited activity throughout eternity would presumably also rest. The rest I refer to is not rest due to working too hard or getting tired, but composure(?) arising from God's Being.

Questions to unred typo
1.Qualifier- as you know I don't speak of time before creation. 'If time doesn't really exist at all' why do you speak of 'eternity past, eternity present or eternity future' before creation?
2. 'If time doesn't really exist' how can 'a duration of time' exist?
3. In your usage what is the difference between 'eternity present' and 'eternity'?

 

[unred typo]

SUMMARY STATEMENT by stranger on Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:43 am

Unred typo:

1. God exists in present eternity and past eternity. Past and present are descriptive of time.
2. God’s eternity present regresses to eternity past every moment.
3. ‘In the beginning’ means the beginning of all things created and does not mark the beginning of time at creation since time is not a ‘thing‘ to create.
4. God’s activity presupposes intervals of planning activity in eternity past.
5.

Stranger:

1. The eternal God existed before creation without past, present, or future in eternity.
2. God is not subject to change, time interval’s or regression.
3. ‘In the beginning’ marks the beginning of time at creation.
4. God exhibits both activity and rest eternally.
5.

Unred questions to stranger
[quote:4fb14]1. How could the future not exist in the past before creation if he always knew it eternally?

stranger answer:
I don't speak of future or past before creation. All I say is that God knew eternally those whom He foreknew and predestined before Creation. We do not have the metaphysics or otherwise of how it happened. But the solitary facts in this verse are consist with the view that God knows all things. Your the one who talks about eternity past and eternity present, not me. Again there is no frame of reference. past, present or future in the Person of God prior to creation. ie the eternal God existed and creation didn't.

Romans 8:29-30 (NASB)
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
The highlighted red shows what God did before creation. The highlighted green called is after creation. [/quote:4fb14]

Exactly. You see we have before and after, which denotes the passage of time. The very fact that we have two things that God did prior to creation shows a succession of events, which also shows an order to his existence, not chaos. It took a measure of time to foreknow and it then took another measure of time to predestine, however momentary this planning went on before creation. Time is not created, any more than length or height, it just is, whether there is anything to measure or not.

Unred question:
2. How could he be present in the past before creation if there was once no present to be present in?

stranger answer:
I don't speak of present or past before creation. Prior to creation God existed eternally. This means that He has no beginning and no end.

‘He has no beginning or end’ means he wasn’t born or come into existence at some time in the past, and he isn’t going to die at some time in the future. You have eliminated him from existence altogether. Think about it. We cannot fathom ‘no beginning’ or ‘no end.’ We can think in terms of length of time even in an interval which is open ended. Does eternity last longer than a zillion years? Does it last longer than a day? Did God create eternity or does it just exist?

Unred question:
3. How could there be a time when there was no time if there was no time?

stranger answer:
I don't call eternity 'time.' Prior to creation the eternal God existed. Nothing else existed - but only God. There is the true basis for creation out of nothing. Talk to me about time in this creation.

We have to call eternity ‘time’ because of the poverty of our language and the puniness of our finite minds. You might call it a time in the past before anything existed except God. I would be happy to talk about time in this creation if you didn’t try to make it a thing or a place that God created. It’s a measure, that’s all. When we have that straight, we can move on to the real topic at hand, predestination and election.

Unred question:
4. If God is at rest and active at the same time, why did he rest after six days of activity?

stranger answer: God rested in the 7th day because He finished His work of creation. So in creation there is both activity and rest. The day of rest is a sanctifying work! Prior to creation God shows activity in foreknowledge and predestination of those in Christ. God who exhibited activity throughout eternity would presumably also rest. The rest I refer to is not rest due to working too hard or getting tired, but composure(?) arising from God's Being.

OK, maybe we’re getting there. Activity denotes motion, motion can be measured in terms of length of time it takes to do the activity. If God had activity in the eternity before creation, there was intervals of time set apart to do the activity or a time when the activity started. God likes to keep track of these things, so he probably has an idea of how long he thought about election and creating things. It doesn’t matter if you track time or not, it just happens to be because there is motion or activity. You don’t have to measure your house for it to have length or height.

Questions to unred typo
1.Qualifier- as you know I don't speak of time before creation. 'If time doesn't really exist at all' why do you speak of 'eternity past, eternity present or eternity future' before creation?

Figure of speech. I speak of length and width but they don’t exist as an entity either.

Question to unred typo
2. 'If time doesn't really exist' how can 'a duration of time' exist?

A duration of time doesn’t exist except as a measurement. It’s not a real entity that must be created.

Question to unred typo
3. In your usage what is the difference between 'eternity present' and 'eternity'?

Just an easy way to differentiate between what has past before creation of the world, during the time of the world’s existence as we know it and what is yet to come when time will no longer be a factor to recon with or to keep track of in the way we do now, i.e. rotation of the planets, sun and stars.

 

[stranger]

SUMMARY STATEMENT

Unred typo:

1. God exists in present eternity and past eternity. Past and present are descriptive of time.
2. God’s eternity present regresses to eternity past every moment regardless of what his makeup is.
3. ‘In the beginning’ means the beginning of all things created and does not mark the beginning of time at creation since time is not a ‘thing‘ to create.
4. God’s activity presupposes intervals of planning activity in eternity past.
5. God's eternal existence was an eternal present tense before creation just as it is after and creation had no effect on God’s perception of time.

Stranger:

1. The eternal God existed before creation without past, present, or future in eternity.
2. God is Spirit and is not subject to change, time or regression from present to past.
3. ‘In the beginning’ marks the beginning of time at creation.
4. God exhibits both activity and rest eternally.
5. God's eternity is a timeless existence, and eternal presence.

 

[unred typo]

Modified SUMMARY STATEMENT by stranger on Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:43 am

Unred typo:

1. God exists in present eternity and past eternity. Past and present are descriptive of time.
2. God’s eternity present regresses to eternity past every moment.
3. ‘In the beginning’ means the beginning of all things created and does not mark the beginning of time at creation since time is not a ‘thing‘ to create.
4. God’s activity presupposes intervals of planning activity in eternity past.
5.

Stranger:

1. The eternal God existed before creation without past, present, or future in eternity.
2. God is Spirit and is not subject to change, time or regression from present to past.
3. ‘In the beginning’ marks the beginning of time at creation.
4. God exhibits both activity and rest eternally.
5. God's eternity is a timeless existence, and eternal presence.

My #2 and #5 is going to read:
2. God’s eternity present regresses to eternity past every moment regardless of what his makeup is.
5. God's eternal existence was an eternal present tense before creation just as it is after and creation had no effect on God’s perception of time.

You still have not proved anything scripturally with all this. Nowhere is it said that God created time. You’re reading something into the text that just isn’t there.

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote:
Romans 8:29-30 (NASB)
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
The highlighted red shows what God did before creation. The highlighted green called is after creation. [/quote]

Exactly. You see we have before and after, which denotes the passage of time. The very fact that we have two things that God did prior to creation shows a succession of events, which also shows an order to his existence, not chaos. It took a measure of time to foreknow and it then took another measure of time to predestine, however momentary this planning went on before creation. Time is not created, any more than length or height, it just is, whether there is anything to measure or not.

The mechanics of God's activity prior to creation are not revealed. I am content to say He did 2 things as you point out in relation to our order of salvation- but there is a well known warning that is appropriate here: My thoughts are not your thoughts and My ways are not your ways. In fact I suggest that the 'My thoughts' were in fact the apostle Paul's thoughts - but the ways (mechanics of God's activity prior to creation) are simply not revealed. To posit a time frame in which God brought forth His 'foreknowledge and predestination' before Creation is something I won't buy. Let it suffice to say that is was in Christ in the eternal presence of the Living God.

Your next statement suggests and even greater difficulty - 'Time is not created , any more than length or height, it just is, whether there is anything to measure or not.' I know that you don't think time is not created??, but the rest of the sentence?? Must be misprint. The only view that accommodates your sentence is a denial of creation out of nothing - that matter has always existed and from it God fashioned life etc

‘He has no beginning or end’ means he wasn’t born or come into existence at some time in the past, and he isn’t going to die at some time in the future. You have eliminated him from existence altogether. Think about it. We cannot fathom ‘no beginning’ or ‘no end.’ We can think in terms of length of time even in an interval which is open ended. Does eternity last longer than a zillion years? Does it last longer than a day? Did God create eternity or does it just exist?

No, I have not 'eliminated Him from existence altogether' but from the environment that is not God of very God before creation that you suppose must exist. Yes, I cannot fathom God's eternity
with no beginning or no end. That is one uncomprehendable attribute of God. See point 5 to cover this one of the summary statement. Consider Melchizedek - see the colour of the language: Hebrews 7:3
Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

It might be interesting to see how the historic Confessions of Faith express the doctrine of God.

We have to call eternity ‘time’ because of the poverty of our language and the puniness of our finite minds. You might call it a time in the past before anything existed except God. I would be happy to talk about time in this creation if you didn’t try to make it a thing or a place that God created. It’s a measure, that’s all. When we have that straight, we can move on to the real topic at hand, predestination and election.

Your call. The problem you face with eternity as time - is that you cannot measure it. You have said time doesn't exist unless it is measured. The other problem is asscoiated with freedom in God. I see God as a free Being. When you say He is subect to eternity present becoming eternity past moment by moment you have this 'infinite regression' - I can only suggest, that most orthodox confessions of faith that I have read have an air of orthodox theology about them - with which I would readily agree.

Unred question:
4. If God is at rest and active at the same time, why did he rest after six days of activity?

stranger answer: God rested in the 7th day because He finished His work of creation. So in creation there is both activity and rest. The day of rest is a sanctifying work! Prior to creation God shows activity in foreknowledge and predestination of those in Christ. God who exhibited activity throughout eternity would presumably also rest. The rest I refer to is not rest due to working too hard or getting tired, but composure(?) arising from God's Being.

OK, maybe we’re getting there. Activity denotes motion, motion can be measured in terms of length of time it takes to do the activity. If God had activity in the eternity before creation, there was intervals of time set apart to do the activity or a time when the activity started. God likes to keep track of these things, so he probably has an idea of how long he thought about election and creating things. It doesn’t matter if you track time or not, it just happens to be because there is motion or activity. You don’t have to measure your house for it to have length or height.

1.

A duration of time doesn’t exist except as a measurement. It’s not a real entity that must be created.

2.

It doesn’t matter if you track time or not, it just happens to be because there is motion or activity. You don’t have to measure your house for it to have length or height.

Do you see any contradiction between 1 and 2?

After creation: a duration of time exists whether you measure it or not; n fact all the dimensions exist whether I measure them or not. Let's move on to election and predestination.

 

[unred typo]

You missed these:
Does eternity last longer than a zillion years? Does it last longer than a day? Did God create eternity or does it just exist?

quote by stranger :
The problem you face with eternity as time - is that you cannot measure it. You have said time doesn't exist unless it is measured. The other problem is asscoiated with freedom in God. I see God as a free Being. When you say He is subect to eternity present becoming eternity past moment by moment you have this 'infinite regression' - I can only suggest, that most orthodox confessions of faith that I have read have an air of orthodox theology about them - with which I would readily agree.

If I said time doesn't exist unless it is measured, show me where and I will retract that. It is easy enough to confuse what is meant by what is said in a conversation like this. I don’t think I ever said time doesn’t exist in any case of the matter. I think the easiest way to explain infinity or eternity is to say that it is everlasting present time without beginning or end.

quote by stranger :
1.A duration of time doesn’t exist except as a measurement. It’s not a real entity that must be created.


2. It doesn’t matter if you track time or not, it just happens to be because there is motion or activity. You don’t have to measure your house for it to have length or height.

Do you see any contradiction between 1 and 2?

A duration of time doesn’t exist as a created person, place or thing, but is only a measurement of the length of activity or portion of it. It doesn’t matter if you track time or not, it just happens to be because there is motion or activity. You don’t have to measure your house for it to have length or height. You don’t have to measure time for it to exist as a measurable duration any more than you have to create time in the first place.

quote by stranger :After creation: a duration of time exists whether you measure it or not; n fact all the dimensions exist whether I measure them or not. Let's move on to election and predestination.

And before creation of the world, time existed just like other dimensions. Might as well move on. This hoss is dead enough. Let’s see how you can talk around election and predestination now..

 

[stranger]

SUMMARY STATEMENT
Comment, your statements 2 and 5 modified.
I change 1 to eliminate the need to speak before creation


Unred typo:

1. God exists in present eternity and past eternity. Past and present are descriptive of time.
2. God’s eternity present regresses to eternity past every moment regardless of what his makeup is.
3. ‘In the beginning’ means the beginning of all things created and does not mark the beginning of time at creation since time is not a ‘thing‘ to create.
4. God’s activity presupposes intervals of planning activity in eternity past.
5. God's eternal existence was an eternal present tense before creation just as it is after and creation had no effect on God’s perception of time.

Stranger:

1. God exists from everlasting to everlasting.
2. God is Spirit and is not subject to change, time or regression from present to past.
3. ‘In the beginning’ marks the beginning of time at creation.
4. God exhibits both activity and rest eternally.
5. God's eternity is a timeless existence, and eternal presence.

 

[unred typo]

Unred typo:

1. God exists in present eternity and past eternity. Past and present are descriptive of time.
2. God’s eternity present regresses to eternity past every moment regardless of what his makeup is.
3. ‘In the beginning’ means the beginning of all things created and does not mark the beginning of time at creation since time is not a ‘thing‘ to create.
4. God’s activity presupposes intervals of planning activity in eternity past.
5. God's eternal existence was an eternal present tense before creation just as it is after and creation had no effect on God’s perception of time.

Stranger:

1. God exists from everlasting to everlasting.

Agreed.

2. God is Spirit and is not subject to change, time or regression from present to past.

This is not the God shown in the Bible. See the verses I listed for you back about 3 posts ago.

3. ‘In the beginning’ marks the beginning of time at creation.

Time for us as we know it. God has always known time as the everlasting present.

4. God exhibits both activity and rest eternally.

Sure, but that works better with my view than yours.

5. God's eternity is a timeless existence, and eternal presence.

Eternity is described as a continuous expanse of time having no beginning or end. God always existed without beginning or end, and will continue from everlasting to everlasting. Beyond that is pure speculation to support an erroneous view.

 

[unred typo]

We’ve been around this barn so many times, we’re both dizzy. Your argument runs something like “God created man, the sky is blue, therefore God is timeless and created time.†You can’t just pad your opinion with unrelated facts and declare that you are right. Let’s move on or agree to disagree.

We have pretty much established what we believe and without any scriptural proof, all we really have is a ‘is so’- ‘is not’ discussion. I would like to see you tackle the actual instances that the Bible gives in relation to God’s foreknowledge of the ‘future’, so I went back and found my original questions about that and posted it here for you:

God can and does change his own mind and his own plans. What doesn’t change are his holy principles, his non aging attributes, his non diminishing power and his foundation of truth. Read these and explain how God’s plans can change in these instances if they were set from the beginning of time:

Exodus 13:17
And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

This shows God’s uncertainty of how the people will react when they meet opposition.

1 Chronicles 21:15
And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

The amount of destruction was not already set ahead of time.

Jeremiah 26:13
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

There is a distinct ‘if’ here.

Ezekiel 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

A choice to repent or not.

Amos 7:6
The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

God changes his mind.

Jonah 3:10
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
God again changes his mind.

Genesis 18:20-21
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God must see what their reaction to the angels he sends will be before he can determine how wicked they have become.

There are hundreds of other instances that could be sited of God changing the plans he had made based on the free will actions of man. What do you do with these? I don’t have a problem with any of this in my theology. The future is not predetermined, except what God has promised will happen. Those things are basically predictions about Christ (so we would know it was really him) and promises for those in Christ who obey him, and comparatively short term prophesies that determine not eternal destinies but judgments upon nations and people that have come upon them because of behavior shown in the recent past, not predetermined from some time before creation.

 

[stranger]

unred typo

I would like to see you tackle the actual instances that the Bible gives in relation to God’s foreknowledge of the ‘future’, so I went back and found my original questions about that and posted it here for you:

God can and does change his own mind and his own plans. What doesn’t change are his holy principles, his non aging attributes, his non diminishing power and his foundation of truth. Read these and explain how God’s plans can change in these instances if they were set from the beginning of time:

Oedience or disobience to God, (laws, ways, Spirit, will ) will place or confirm a man in one of two paths - the path to life or the path to death. There are prinicples at work one of which is summed up by 'what a man sows so shall he reap'.

Exodus 13:17
And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

This shows God’s uncertainty of how the people will react when they meet opposition.

In this part of their journey God spared the people from a temptation that they were not ready for - greater than the people were able to bear. cf comment about no being tempted beyond what they can bear, and God also providing a way of escape. In your example the way of escape was obvious.

1 Chronicles 21:15
And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

The amount of destruction was not already set ahead of time.

This is an example of 'In judgement remember mercy'.

Jeremiah 26:13
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

There is a distinct ‘if’ here.

I am comfortable with this - it is a call to repentance. When I heard someone say the following sentence I was greatly relieved: The bible is full of threats and warnings against men.

Ezekiel 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

A choice to repent or not.

I would say a call to repentance which can be obeyed or not.

Amos 7:6
The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

God changes his mind.

Amos 7:1-10 (New International Version)
1 This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts after the king's share had been harvested and just as the second crop was coming up. 2 When they had stripped the land clean, I cried out, "Sovereign LORD, forgive! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!"
3 So the LORD relented.
"This will not happen," the LORD said.
4 This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: The Sovereign LORD was calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land. 5 Then I cried out, "Sovereign LORD, I beg you, stop! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!"
6 So the LORD relented.
"This will not happen either," the Sovereign LORD said.
7 This is what he showed me: The Lord was standing by a wall that had been built true to plumb, with a plumb line in his hand. 8 And the LORD asked me, "What do you see, Amos?"
"A plumb line," I replied.
Then the Lord said, "Look, I am setting a plumb line among my people Israel; I will spare them no longer.
9 "The high places of Isaac will be destroyed
and the sanctuaries of Israel will be ruined;
with my sword I will rise against the house of Jeroboam."

Jeremiah saw the future in three visions, and he interceded for Israel on the the first two occassions with the words: 'How can Jacob stand, he is so small'. God heard Jeremiah's prayer twice. In the third vision they was no intercessory prayer but warning of immanent judgment. That they were visions of the future, I have no doubt.

Jonah 3:10
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God again changes his mind.

On this occassion Jonah's message 'yet 40 days and Ninevah will be destroyed' was heeded - believed by the people and King - and they repented. God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek 33).

Genesis 18:20-21
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God must see what their reaction to the angels he sends will be before he can determine how wicked they have become.

v17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?

You will find that at v17 the Lord was intent to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. HOw do I know? Because the Lord remains with Abraham and they discuss the matter. The issue here is not only the destruction of S&G but also the destruction of the righteous with the wicked. This goes against Abraham's understanding of God's ways. So he (Abraham beings to pray . . .) Again intercessory prayer onthis occassion saved Lot . . . The angels went to destroy S&G but could not begin until Lot and co were safe. Thus the Lord and the angels knew the future, but for Abraham's sake they spoke in the terms they did becuse God knew that Abrahm's prayer availeth much for Lot.

What you are doing is looking for proof texts to support your predetermined belief - I do that also but it is a poor hermeutic.

There are hundreds of other instances that could be sited of God changing the plans he had made based on the free will actions of man. What do you do with these? I don’t have a problem with any of this in my theology. The future is not predetermined, except what God has promised will happen. Those things are basically predictions about Christ (so we would know it was really him) and promises for those in Christ who obey him, and comparatively short term prophesies that determine not eternal destinies but judgments upon nations and people that have come upon them because of behavior shown in the recent past, not predetermined from some time before creation.

There are probably 100's of other instances, but if I may be so bold as to suggest that we focus on Adam in the garden next. Adam is generic, he is generic . . .Hopefully I can get back to you on this one.

 

[unred typo]

stranger wrote: Let's move on to election and predestination.

Let's then. Start with the list of verses and my comments after them that I just posted (on Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:28 am) please. I know it's a busy season but patience obviously isn't one of my virtues, if I have any. :wink:

 

[unred typo]

unred typo

I would like to see you tackle the actual instances that the Bible gives in relation to God’s foreknowledge of the ‘future’, so I went back and found my original questions about that and posted it here for you:

God can and does change his own mind and his own plans. What doesn’t change are his holy principles, his non aging attributes, his non diminishing power and his foundation of truth. Read these and explain how God’s plans can change in these instances if they were set from the beginning of time:

Oedience or disobience to God, (laws, ways, Spirit, will ) will place or confirm a man in one of two paths - the path to life or the path to death. There are prinicples at work one of which is summed up by 'what a man sows so shall he reap'.

Exodus 13:17
And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

[quote:b8c30]This shows God’s uncertainty of how the people will react when they meet opposition.

In this part of their journey God spared the people from a temptation that they were not ready for - greater than the people were able to bear. cf comment about no being tempted beyond what they can bear, and God also providing a way of escape. In your example the way of escape was obvious.

1 Chronicles 21:15
And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

The amount of destruction was not already set ahead of time.

This is an example of 'In judgement remember mercy'.

Jeremiah 26:13
Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

There is a distinct ‘if’ here.

I am comfortable with this - it is a call to repentance. When I heard someone say the following sentence I was greatly relieved: The bible is full of threats and warnings against men.

Ezekiel 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

A choice to repent or not.

I would say a call to repentance which can be obeyed or not.

Amos 7:6
The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord GOD.

God changes his mind.

Amos 7:1-10 (New International Version)
1 This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts after the king's share had been harvested and just as the second crop was coming up. 2 When they had stripped the land clean, I cried out, "Sovereign LORD, forgive! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!"
3 So the LORD relented.
"This will not happen," the LORD said.
4 This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: The Sovereign LORD was calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land. 5 Then I cried out, "Sovereign LORD, I beg you, stop! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!"
6 So the LORD relented.
"This will not happen either," the Sovereign LORD said.
7 This is what he showed me: The Lord was standing by a wall that had been built true to plumb, with a plumb line in his hand. 8 And the LORD asked me, "What do you see, Amos?"
"A plumb line," I replied.
Then the Lord said, "Look, I am setting a plumb line among my people Israel; I will spare them no longer.
9 "The high places of Isaac will be destroyed
and the sanctuaries of Israel will be ruined;
with my sword I will rise against the house of Jeroboam."

Jeremiah saw the future in three visions, and he interceded for Israel on the the first two occassions with the words: 'How can Jacob stand, he is so small'. God heard Jeremiah's prayer twice. In the third vision they was no intercessory prayer but warning of immanent judgment. That they were visions of the future, I have no doubt.

Jonah 3:10
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God again changes his mind.

On this occassion Jonah's message 'yet 40 days and Ninevah will be destroyed' was heeded - believed by the people and King - and they repented. God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek 33).

Genesis 18:20-21
20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God must see what their reaction to the angels he sends will be before he can determine how wicked they have become.

v17 Then the LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?

You will find that at v17 the Lord was intent to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. HOw do I know? Because the Lord remains with Abraham and they discuss the matter. The issue here is not only the destruction of S&G but also the destruction of the righteous with the wicked. This goes against Abraham's understanding of God's ways. So he (Abraham beings to pray . . .) Again intercessory prayer onthis occassion saved Lot . . . The angels went to destroy S&G but could not begin until Lot and co were safe. Thus the Lord and the angels knew the future, but for Abraham's sake they spoke in the terms they did becuse God knew that Abrahm's prayer availeth much for Lot.

What you are doing is looking for proof texts to support your predetermined belief - I do that also but it is a poor hermeutic.

There are hundreds of other instances that could be sited of God changing the plans he had made based on the free will actions of man. What do you do with these? I don’t have a problem with any of this in my theology. The future is not predetermined, except what God has promised will happen. Those things are basically predictions about Christ (so we would know it was really him) and promises for those in Christ who obey him, and comparatively short term prophesies that determine not eternal destinies but judgments upon nations and people that have come upon them because of behavior shown in the recent past, not predetermined from some time before creation.

There are probably 100's of other instances, but if I may be so bold as to suggest that we focus on Adam in the garden next. Adam is generic, he is generic . . .Hopefully I can get back to you on this one.[/quote:b8c30]

Stranger, you have not once explained how something can be predetermined from before the creation of the world, (time actually, according to you, ) and then change at the last minute before it happens. How can God know thousands of years ahead of time that, say, Nineveh was going to repent and he would not be destroying it after all? Clearly, his choice to save it was based on their repentance, not an arbitrary decision thousands of years before. Do you have any idea what I’m trying to say here?

 

[stranger]

unred typo wrote
You asked for a comment on the verses that you supplied. . .

Stranger, you have not once explained how something can be predetermined from before the creation of the world, (time actually, according to you, ) and then change at the last minute before it happens. How can God know thousands of years ahead of time that, say, Nineveh was going to repent and he would not be destroying it after all?

Who God has 'foreknown and predestined' before the foundation of the world are those in Christ. How can God know? You need to ask God that question. God may or may not explain His knowing to you that would agree with your reasoning and intellect. I am only a bystander and not witness to what God did before the foundation of the world. If I offered a reason for God's action I would be speaking presumptuously. We know 'those whom He foreknew He predestined'. . . and armed with this knowledge I am content.

God's foreknowledge about Ninevah? While I know that there is a counsel of God - I do not know what is contained therein about Ninevah. I can only speak in general terms of something that I once heard: every action upon the earth is also an act of God. If I can find the quote I wil post it to you. Don't forget 'Adam'.

Clearly, his choice to save it was based on their repentance, not an arbitrary decision thousands of years before. Do you have any idea what I’m trying to say here?

Were you a witness to God's foreknowledge that you would reason thus? You appear to want to find a reason for God's foreknowledge in the subsequent repentance of believers.