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Predestination

vince:

The Bible also teaches that God grants repentance to all men.

Nope, To His Chosen acts 5:


31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel[Chosen], and forgiveness of sins.

Israel here is not ethnic jews, but spiritual jews and gentiles acts 11:

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

They have repentnace unto Life and forgiveness of sins.

Now we know this is not true of all men without exception, for many will die in their sins..

Matt 7:


23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These people were never given repentance, Christ did not even love them, nor die for them..
 
"31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel[Chosen], and forgiveness of sins."

I want you readers to see that Calvin's philosophy requires a flat-out rejection of Scripture. You cannot serve God and Calvin. The word "Chosen" does not appear in the text. God has granted repentance to Israel, and also to the Gentiles. They can accept or reject this repentance.
 
vince:

They can accept or reject this repentance.

Where does it say that ? In fact, it says nothing about an offer of repentance..
 
Go Vince go!
You are doing an upstanding job of pointing out the errors of Calvin.


Deuteronomy 30
(15) See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
(16) In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
(17) But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
(18) I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
(19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
(20) That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
 
I read your post and I understand it. when I was created by God and I stood before him - he must not have said I would be one of the christians - and if Im not one of those who follow the christian religion as you know it - than what am I? Did God not know what I would do, or did God preordain exactly what I did, which was renounce christianity.

God said, to Israel of old, " Choose you this day, whom you will serve!"

A peach seed has the preordained, predestined ability to fulfill its destiny, as all seed does...! However, as Jesus said, " the seed must go in the ground and die!" In order to fulfill its predestined, predetermined destiny, that seed has some obligations. It must go in the ground and die. It must receive sufficient light, water, air, and nutrients! It must escape disease, insects, etc.

John 1...says of those that believe, and have been born of His seed, that they have the right, the enablement, and the power TO BECOME the children of God.

As God has done His part through the enablement for every believer to fulfill their destiny of becoming images of Christ, there are choices that the believer has to make in order to achieve that destiny..

You have chosen to take your [seed] out of the light, and water! Your choice not His. Funny thing is, just as any seed in a forest that doesn't receive the light, or rain, is still predestined to be a tree! Years after a forest fire clears the forest floor, those seeds that have been lying dormant, that now receive the light and rain, spring forth, to fulfill their destiny...

You can to!

Barelohim.
 
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vince:

Nowhere in my post did I say that God gives them an OFFER of repentance

You implied it,[by stating they reject it or accept it] and do not deny it.
 
Go Vince go!
You are doing an upstanding job of pointing out the errors of Calvin.


Deuteronomy 30
(15) See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
(16) In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
(17) But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
(18) I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
(19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
(20) That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

This is really bad contextualization. God offered the Jews a choice, but the Jews never had the ability to choose anything but rebellion in that context (Dueteronomy 27-30). It was their nature, and it is our nature to rebel. Also, notice in the context... (all quotes ASV)

Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
***So then, according to this verse, the Jews were to have a choice, but not have the ability to choose the good. God did not give them a heart to choose obedience. Their heart was evil. For them to obey, God had to give them a heart to perceive. He didn't give them that heart.

Moses also promises that one day, they will obey.
Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

*** Notice where the Jews will remember the "blessing and the curse." They will remember them when they are scattered among the nations. If you go back to chapter 28, you will see that being scattered is a part of the curses for disobedience. Moses again assumes that they will disobey. But he promises that after they disobey, they will repent. Verse 2 says that they will return to the LORD they God. However, verse 6-8 tells how that will happen.

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deu 30:7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
Deu 30:8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

*** Notice that verse 8 has the same term... "return." Verse 6 tells us when the "return" will occur. In verse 6, the heart condition of 29:4 is reversed. They Jews will repent and return to the Lord when God circumcises their heart.



-------Therefore, when Moses offers the Jews a choice to obey or disobey in 17-20, they only had the ability, or the heart condition to choose one path, rebellion. So then, the offer in 17-20 was never in doubt. The Jews were going to rebel. Without the heart circumcision of Deut 30:6 they must rebel, and without that heart circumcision, we will rebel also. This heart circumcision is commonly called regeneration. We, the regenerate will choose life and choose the obedience of faith. The unregenerate will make choices according to their nature, rebellion. But it is all the work of God. Man is only a sinner.
 
Another of Calvinism's many errors is that God gives two calls: a sincere call and a hypocritical call. The doctrine is that God makes it impossible for man to respond, then He commands man to respond, and then He condemns men for not responding.

John 1:9 says "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." Folks, I looked up John 1:9 in the Greek, and it is translated correctly. Jesus is the true light that enlightens every man that comes into the world. The Words "light" and "lighten" mean to illuminate, to shine (with the emphasis on rays), to brighten.

I cannot make this verse any clearer than God did. If a person says that "enlighten" does not mean "enlighten," "every man" does not mean "every man," or "the world" does not mean "the world," then I cannot go any farther. I can quote other Scriptures showing the same things, but eventually, a person has to accept God's Word over Calvin's philosophy, and I cannot make a person do that.
 
Another of Calvinism's many errors is that God gives two calls: a sincere call and a hypocritical call. The doctrine is that God makes it impossible for man to respond, then He commands man to respond, and then He condemns men for not responding.
Vince, your style of writing is so very much like your theology. Both lack grace. It makes it so very difficult not to respond as uncharitably as you write about your doctrine of human merit. I must admit I am amazed at the similarities between your theology and that of Pelagius. I am curious if you believe anything actually happened in the fall of Adam?

Also, it is noticeable in your post that you cannot deal with correction of the errors in Deuteronomy. Typical of people of your persuasion, they are not willing to discuss the scriptural objections, but just jump to a different verse like they can only believe the half the bible they mistakenly feel supports their tradition.

It seem typical of people of your persuasion to create a straw man. I notice the emotionally charged term "hypocritical call." Of course no Calvinist would use such a term. There are in fact two calls, but you completely misrepresent the distinction. One call is Gods statement of human responsibility, the call to repentance. All men are responsible to repent. This is the call you misrepresent as the "hypocritical call." Your assumption here is that God is obligated to give all men an equal chance. So then, you call human responsibility "hypocrisy!" That is a statement that is rather blasphemous.

John 1:9 says "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." Folks, I looked up John 1:9 in the Greek, and it is translated correctly. Jesus is the true light that enlightens every man that comes into the world. The Words "light" and "lighten" mean to illuminate, to shine (with the emphasis on rays), to brighten.

I cannot make this verse any clearer than God did. If a person says that "enlighten" does not mean "enlighten," "every man" does not mean "every man," or "the world" does not mean "the world," then I cannot go any farther. I can quote other Scriptures showing the same things, but eventually, a person has to accept God's Word over Calvin's philosophy, and I cannot make a person do that.

Let me first post the verse.... Since you implied that you can read greek....
9 ην το φως το αληθινον ο φωτιζει παντα ανθρωπον ερχομενον εις τον κοσμον

Your assumption is that the word panta must always refer to all men without exception. Lets see if you will be consistent in your error throughout the context.

Pantes is found in verse 7.
7 ουτος ηλθεν εις μαρτυριαν ινα μαρτυρηση περι του φωτος ινα παντες πιστευσωσιν δι αυτου
The clause is "παντες πιστευσωσιν δι αυτου"
If you take the word pantes as "all men without exception" then faith comes to all men without exception. Of course that is a doctrine called universalism. Someone should be asking you the question if you are a universalist. Are you?

Of course, talk to many right in these threads. There are many athiests, many non-believers. It would be an absurdity to claim all men have faith.

16 οτι εκ του πληρωματος αυτου ημεις παντες ελαβομεν και χαριν αντι χαριτος
Of course the key clause here is "εκ του πληρωματος αυτου ημεις παντες ελαβομεν"
So has each and every person without exception received the fulness of Christ? The final clause refer to grace. Do you believe all men have received Grace? If you are a universalist, I am sure you will answer yes. Are you a universalist?

There are of course many contexts where the word "pas" cannot mean "all men without exception." In Luke, did Ceasar send a decree that pasan the word will be taxed. How much taxes did they collect from the Yucatan? Or outer mongolia? Of course the term refers to the Romans world. It is not all men without exception.

This could go on an on. "all" Judea and Jerusalam came to see John preaching... Does this mean all men without exception in Jerusalem and Judea? Not a man woman or child or elderly person was left in Jerusalem or Judea? The houses were all empty?

Anyone who reads greek should be familiar with the semantic range of the term "pas." Only someone ignorant of the meaning of the term would make claims like you do.
 
Hey, no problem Mondar.

Deuteronomy 29:4 says "Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day."

The children of Israel could not possibly live up to God's requirements for His chosen people because they had not repented and turned to God. God, therefor, did not give them the new heart that accompanies salvation. They had been enlightened, drawn, taught, given repentance, and had received the grace of God that brings salvation. But they had rejected all this and were still unsaved.

In fact, in the previous verse, Moses tells them: "You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land ---
3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders."

Yet, they had rejected all this, and still did not have the new heart that accompanies salvation.
 
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This is really bad contextualization. God offered the Jews a choice, but the Jews never had the ability to choose anything but rebellion in that context (Dueteronomy 27-30). It was their nature, and it is our nature to rebel. Also, notice in the context... (all quotes ASV).
While I do not share your view on the predestination matter in general, I agree with your take on the Deuteronomy texts - the Jews never "had a chance" to obey at that point in the story of redemption.

Interpreting scripture properly take hard work and finding a snippet of text where the reader is enjoined to "choose life" and to thereby conclude that the doctrine of predestination is wrong is not good exegesis.

But, ironically, I suggest that it is precisely a proper, holistic, contextually sensitive analysis that leads to the conclusion that Romans 9 does not support predestination - to "extract" texts from Romans 9 (such as the potter metaphor) in support of a doctrine of individual pre-destination is to commit a similar error than the one that I agree Vince is making in his invocation of the Deuteronomy text.

But, yes, given the overall shape of the narrative, the Jews who were instructed to "choose life" were, I suggest, not capable of doing so - God had other plans.
 
Typical of people of your persuasion, they are not willing to discuss the scriptural objections, but just jump to a different verse like they can only believe the half the bible they mistakenly feel supports their tradition.
A dangerous generalization - there are demonstrably some who reject the doctrine of individual pre-destination who most decidedly do not engage in the sort of evasion you describe here.
 
Hey, no problem Mondar.

Deuteronomy 29:4 says "Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day."

The children of Israel could not possibly live up to God's requirements for His chosen people because they had not repented and turned to God. God. therefor, did not give them the new heart that accompanies salvation. They had been enlightened, drawn, taught, given repentance, and had received the grace of God that brings salvation. But they had rejected all this and were still unsaved.

In fact, in the previous verse, Moses tells them: "You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land ---
3 the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders."

Yet, they had rejected all this, and still did not have the new heart that accompanies salvation.

There is still a problem because you reverse what the passage is saying. Worse, in the gospel of John, John makes direct statements that the theology of Deuteronomy (and Isaiah) is suggesting that man can not believe because mans heart is hard.

Lets notice the connection between John and Deuteronomy 29:4. Specificly, the concept of seeing, but not seeing or perceiving, hearing but not hearing is repeated in Isaiah and then John 12. John writes.... (ASV)

John 12:39 For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them.


John is of course borrowing from Isaiah 6:9-10. (Isaiah by the word of God from Moses).

Notice the first words.... "For this cause they could not believe." John is saying the exact opposite of what you were saying about Deuteronomy 29:4. In the verses above John says the reason the Jews could not believe is because of their hard hearts... God blinded their eyes.... God hardened their hearts.... then he quotes Isaiah (who is quoting Deuteronomy 29:4). It is interesting in this text, that you are saying the exact opposite. John says "for this cause they could not believe." You are saying that they can believe.

John says because God hardened their hearts they "could not believe."

This concept that men cannot believe is repeated in John 6:64-65. While John 6:64-65 does not allude to the Deuteronomy passage, it is just as forceful.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.
65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

In this passage the text says that they did not believe, and then explains why. Jesus says no man "can come unto me." If you have ability in koine greek, please look at the verse in greek. Notice the clause....
"ουδεις δυναται ελθειν"
dunatai is a verb of ability. It is a very forceful verb. No man has the ability to come to Christ. Without the power giving some men the ability, no one would come.

This same verb (dunatai) is found in John 6:44 when John says "no man can come to me."

All of Johns theology can be traced back to Moses in Deuteronomy. The Israelites have a heart that is hard, and they cannot believe (Deuteronomy 29:4). God promises to "circumcise their hearts" (Deuteronomy 30:6) and then they will obey with all their hearts, minds, and souls.

Faith, is a part of God's grace. It is the work of God in man. That is a tough one because it takes away human merit. We want to make at least some small contribution to our own salvation, the contribution of faith. Faith pleases God. The natural man will never do anything to please God (Romans 8:7-8).
 
While I do not share your view on the predestination matter in general, I agree with your take on the Deuteronomy texts - the Jews never "had a chance" to obey at that point in the story of redemption.

Interpreting scripture properly take hard work and finding a snippet of text where the reader is enjoined to "choose life" and to thereby conclude that the doctrine of predestination is wrong is not good exegesis.

But, ironically, I suggest that it is precisely a proper, holistic, contextually sensitive analysis that leads to the conclusion that Romans 9 does not support predestination - to "extract" texts from Romans 9 (such as the potter metaphor) in support of a doctrine of individual pre-destination is to commit a similar error than the one that I agree Vince is making in his invocation of the Deuteronomy text.

But, yes, given the overall shape of the narrative, the Jews who were instructed to "choose life" were, I suggest, not capable of doing so - God had other plans.

LOL, Drew, if you wish to rehash Romans 9, we can do that. I really hate to do that over and over in every thread we meet. If you want to do that, should we not do it in a thread on Romans 9, or some other place?
 
I wonder why we do not see the old 'You call upon you god to consume you offering, and I will call on mine, and we will see which one is real.'

I sometimes think it could settle disputes like this pretty simply. Who knows.

What's the use of talking about something like this if your just going to call names, make assumptions, be sarcastic, and not even try to understand what the other guy is thinking?

Maybe we could all learn from the story in the old testament and see how both sides were seen for what they were before anyone was "killed".

"But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another."
 
Another error of Calvinism consists of first believing the philosophies of men cursed by God (Mani and Saint Augustine), changing the dictionary to agree with their teachings, and then giving the new definitions to the Bible.

For instance, the Hebrew and Greek words translated "all" really do not mean each and every last single one without exception, EVERY TIME. But the word "all" never means "the elect," either in secular Greek, Biblical Greek, or in the dictionary. In addition, it never means "some." And it never means "a minority." A related Calvinist error is the doctrine that "all" can NEVER mean every one.

However, God is able to deal with that. In John 1:9, God states that Jesus is "... was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." And in Acts 17:30, we are told that "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,"
 
There is still a problem because you reverse what the passage is saying. Worse, in the gospel of John, John makes direct statements that the theology of Deuteronomy (and Isaiah) is suggesting that man can not believe because mans heart is hard.

Lets notice the connection between John and Deuteronomy 29:4. Specificly, the concept of seeing, but not seeing or perceiving, hearing but not hearing is repeated in Isaiah and then John 12. John writes.... (ASV)

John 12:39 For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them.


John is of course borrowing from Isaiah 6:9-10. (Isaiah by the word of God from Moses).

Notice the first words.... "For this cause they could not believe." John is saying the exact opposite of what you were saying about Deuteronomy 29:4. In the verses above John says the reason the Jews could not believe is because of their hard hearts... God blinded their eyes.... God hardened their hearts.... then he quotes Isaiah (who is quoting Deuteronomy 29:4). It is interesting in this text, that you are saying the exact opposite. John says "for this cause they could not believe." You are saying that they can believe.

This seems to be speaking of the Jews as a people. Individuals, even in the OT, did believe and were saved.

The "revealed" arm of the Lord is the Lord Jesus Himself. Blindness and the hardening of the heart are related - they are a punishment to the unbelievers.
John 12 said:
38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Jesus declares He is God manifested to man, come as a light into the world so that by believing in Him man would not remain in darkness. Whosoever believes should not abide in darkness.

Isaiah believed. So did David, Joshua, etc. They could and did.
John 12 said:
44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
 
As the Kingdom was prepared for the Sheep from the foundation, so likewise was the everlasting fire for the goats.

Matt 25:


33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Each of us was born with a place prepared for us, destined..
 
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