Predestination

[savedbygrace57]

Getting back to Romans 1, we have seen from verse 20 that unsaved men do clearly see and understand spiritual things: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,"

The previous verse tells us "19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them." The context clearly shows that God is giving this spiritual revelation of Himself to lost people, and that they do receive and understand it.

More false teaching, nowhere in rom 1 does it state that the natural man clearly see'sand understands spiritual things.

In fact, the spiritual things of God are foolisness to the natural man, because they are spiritually discened 1 cor 2:

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

 

[Vince]

A common and oft-repeated error of Calvinism is that you can refute Scripture by quoting Scripture.

The verse cited in the previous post shows that the natural man cannot receive the things of God. That's why God has to show it to them, enlighten them, teach them, draw them, and give them the grace of God that brings salvation. If God didn't do these things, they would have no hope of salvation.

 

[Bazz1040]

I used to be against this...not so much anymore


What're your thoughts?

We are predestined to be in the image of Jesus.

 

[savedbygrace57]

We are predestined to be in the image of Jesus.

If we are Chosen in Him before the foundation..

 

[mondar]

"This is speaking of predestinated grace"

The phrase "predestinated grace" does not appear anywhere in Scripture.

Meanwhile, Acts 7:51 is often used to refute irresistible grace: "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you." Since the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, and they always resisted the Holy Spirit, the Sanhedrin must have resisted this grace. On the other hand, the word "grace" is conspicuously absent from the passage.

Since grace is a kindness, not a force, it cannot be irresistible. But what else did the Sanhedrin resist?

John 16:8 And when He [the Holy Spirit] has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

"Meanwhile," Acts 7:51 is used by Vince to distort the teaching of irresistible grace. Notice how he represents the doctrine in the absence of other truths. Total depravity would teach that a man not only can resist the HS, but will absolutely resist the Holy Spirit. Before regeneration, we all resist the Holy Spirit. All me everywhere will always resist the Holy Spirit unless ...........God changes their nature. The changing of a mans nature, so that he stops resisting the Holy Spirit is an act of Grace.

The other text Vince mishandles is John 16:8. Lets quote the context.... (ASV)

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

In verse 8, when the HS "is come" he is not "come" to the whole world, but only to those in verse 7 called "you." Verse 7 says "I will send him to you." When the HS "comes" to the people he calls "you" in verse 7, he will also have a ministry to the world... not to bring them to Christ, but to shame them. Notice how verse 9 follows, the ministry of the Holy Spirit in shaming the world is to lead them to faith, but to shame them because they do not believe.

 

[Vince]

We have seen from Romans 1 that unsaved men know and understand Divine truth. In verse 18, the passage explains "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,"

Wicked men do possess the truth, but they suppress it. Furthermore, they do not suppress the truth because they are the helpless victims of God; they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

We have seen from Romans 1 that unsaved men know and understand Divine truth. In verse 18, the passage explains "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,"

Wicked men do possess the truth, but they suppress it. Furthermore, they do not suppress the truth because they are the helpless victims of God; they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Paul's "opinion" is just that, an opinion. What Paul dose is claim things that are no where else in the Bible. To be honest, saying everyone secretly agrees with you and only say they don't because they hate you is absurd. He gives no reason as to why this is true, just claims it.

So what, when ever someone tries to use this trick on me in real life, I feel sorry for the person, because I can't beleive people are so desperate to win at an argument that they have to delude themselves into thinking that I'm just messing with them and I secretly agree with them.

It makes me ill to think that people have so little regard for honesty/comprehension that they can't simply comprehend that sometimes people just don't believe you and have their own ideas already.

I doubt the Hindu's, Muslims, native Americans, and the naturalists that Got pushed around and fought wars over where all part of this secret believing nonsense.

It would be like me going up to someone with a dangerous food allergy and claiming that they don't really get sick, they only will themselves sick because they secretly love the food but are to deep in the lie to just admit it.

Or if I went around telling people there favorite color wasn't their favorite color, and the one I chose was their favorite color.

You see the logic trap there?

 

[stovebolts]

Paul's "opinion" is just that, an opinion. What Paul dose is claim things that are no where else in the Bible. To be honest, saying everyone secretly agrees with you and only say they don't because they hate you is absurd. He gives no reason as to why this is true, just claims it.

Paul could lay claim that he had the entire OT memorized verbatim... Can you stake that claim?

Along with that claim, Paul could state that he was fluid in all of the Oral traditions that surrounded the text as well. Can you stake that claim?

Paul received his religious training from a very prestigious school (shemi), which by the way Jesus sided with on all occasions except divorce. What religous school have you advanced in?

Paul was very well versed in the various cultures and religions to the point where the could quote their own prophets, Can you stake that claim?

But more to your point... Are you saying that humans have never worshiped idols or false God's?... Even an atheist believes this much which is clearly seen.

Paul asserts, much in the same way that he does at Mars Hill, that all men have a desire to worship which is evidenced not only in scripture, but also now in archeology. Unfortunately, they've missed the mark.

 

[savedbygrace57]

We have seen from Romans 1 that unsaved men know and understand Divine truth. In verse 18, the passage explains "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,"

Wicked men do possess the truth, but they suppress it. Furthermore, they do not suppress the truth because they are the helpless victims of God; they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Men in all their wisdom and natural ability, knew not God 1 cor 1:21

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God,[Spiritually] it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[Vince]

An oft-repeated error of Calvinism is the belief that you can refute Scripture with Scripture. The previously-cited verse shows that men cannot know God by wisdom. That is why Romans 1 explains that God SHOWS these things to them.

It also explains why Jesus enlightens all men and draws all men to Himself; why God the Father teaches all men; and why the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Without this grace, which has appeared to all men, no one could ever be saved.

 

[farouk]

V:

Actually, comparing Scripture with Scripture can be a healthy exercise.

On the one hand this verse, on the other, this one.

In this way, the believer is more likely to avoid going too far off center on the basis of a supposed interpretation of one verse on its own.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Paul could lay claim that he had the entire OT memorized verbatim... Can you stake that claim?

I don't have to, it has no relevance to the dishonesty of his statement about knowing what others think.

Along with that claim, Paul could state that he was fluid in all of the Oral traditions that surrounded the text as well. Can you stake that claim?

So? It dosen't validate his claim. To me this makes it more obvious that what he said was dishonest. He went around and learned the ways of other people, yet still claims they don't actually believe what they believe. No, any one who has taken the time to observe anyone else of another religion, you will see they actually believe what they believe. Paul's little statement that everyone truly believes in his God, is what we call a lie.

Paul received his religious training from a very prestigious school (shemi), which by the way Jesus sided with on all occasions except divorce. What religous school have you advanced in?

Sorry, I'm not falling for your smoke screen. I know what Paul said was dishonest because I know how I think. I don't have to go get a degree in theology to know that Paul is making a claim he can't back up. He claims to know what I think, I say he is wrong because I don't believe him. He claims I'm lying, I roll my eyes because its just a cheep ploy. That's it.

Paul was very well versed in the various cultures and religions to the point where the could quote their own prophets, Can you stake that claim?

Prove his statement true. What do I actually think, and please demonstrate how I secretly believe in your God. Do it. All these other points are nothing but the fallacy argument from authority. So what if Paul went to a school that taught him theology, it still dose not validate his claim that everyone secretly believes him. There is this thing in debate and philosophy called sophistry, its where one arguer is not interested in actually learning from the other person, but just dose what ever they need to, to win an argument even if they are wrong. Paul is evangelizing, and what dose he do, he claims everyone already believes him and those that don't are the bad people. That's sophistry because it already refuses someone else point before its even made.

This what we call in modern times, Propaganda.

But more to your point... Are you saying that humans have never worshiped idols or false God's?... Even an atheist believes this much which is clearly seen.

I never made this statement, and I won't answer your loaded question.

Paul asserts, much in the same way that he does at Mars Hill, that all men have a desire to worship which is evidenced not only in scripture, but also now in archeology. Unfortunately, they've missed the mark.

You have still not shown how Paul's claim is true. Unless you want to claim that all God's are the same, so what if people wanted to worship something, it dosen't prove that everyone wanted to worship Yaweh.

What it shows is that we are social beginnings that seek a leader. Like most social mammals. We seek an alpha whether it be a God or just a leader.

 

[infinitetruth]

It states in the Bible many times over that God chooses those who will be let into the Kingdom of Heaven. Not once does it say that God DOESN'T choose you. If that makes sense. If you claim to be a Christian and later renounce your faith, you were never chosen. You never a true Christian, a chosen one of God.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord."(NLT)

Ephesians 2:8 "God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God."(NLT)

Philippians 1:29 "For you have been given not only the privilege of trusting in Christ but also the privilege of suffering for him."(NLT)

Colossians 2:12 "Since God chose you to be the holy people he loves, you must clothe yourselves with tenderhearted mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience."(NLT)

God chooses you. He does not not choose. I have a friend who strongly believes that God predestines every little thing, down to which hamburger I choose to buy at In-n-Out. This too me sounds far fetched, but you have to remember that everything in your past has led you to where you are now. And that is from God. But we also have a responsibility in the now to follow God. Otherwise we are loveless and mindless. It is a very deep concept that I still honestly do not grasp fully, but there are some things that are certain.

God bless.

 

[Bazz1040]

We have seen from Romans 1 that unsaved men know and understand Divine truth. In verse 18, the passage explains "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,"

Wicked men do possess the truth, but they suppress it. Furthermore, they do not suppress the truth because they are the helpless victims of God; they suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

That is not what it is saying.......one does not need to understand something in order to suppress it. For example, those who hated Jesus and had Him crucified. When Jesus was one the cross He said, Father forgive them for they do not know they do. Because Satan blinded their mind they tried to suppress the truth of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul's "opinion" is just that, an opinion. What Paul dose is claim things that are no where else in the Bible. To be honest, saying everyone secretly agrees with you and only say they don't because they hate you is absurd. He gives no reason as to why this is true, just claims it.

Paul spoke as he was inspired by the Holy Spirit. From the beginning, we see man is made in the image of God. Man has been given the knowledge of His Creator...the knowledge of God is infused into our being. Unfortunately, because of sin, man chooses to worship the creature instead of his Maker.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

The whole He hath made beautiful in its season; also, that knowledge He hath put in their heart without which man findeth not out the work that God hath done from the beginning even unto the end.

We see men suppress the truth (Rom. 1:18), what is known of God is manifest in them (Rom. 1:19), although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God (Rom.1:21), know the righteous judgment of God (Rom. 1:28), show the work of the law "written in their hearts...conscience bearing witness" (Rom. 2:15), having their own conscience "seared with a hot iron" (1 Tim. 4:2), so their mind and conscience are defiled. (Tit. 1:15).

 

[glorydaz]

That is not what it is saying.......one does not need to understand something in order to suppress it. For example, those who hated Jesus and had Him crucified. When Jesus was one the cross He said, Father forgive them for they do not know they do. Because Satan blinded their mind they tried to surppress the truth of God.

Yes, but they knew there was a God. They were blinded to Jesus being His Son.

Children may not "understand" God, but they know He exists. It's as we sin that the knowledge of God is supressed in us. Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me". He knew quite well that man was created to be a vessel in which He could dwell. The Holy Spirit must "renew" the knowledge of God in us that has been darkened by satan and sin.

Our very life comes from God. We either deny or acknowledge that fact.

 

[Bazz1040]

Yes, but they knew there was a God. They were blinded to Jesus being His Son.

Obviously, since the Bible tells us this.

Children may not "understand" God, but they know He exists. It's as we sin that the knowledge of God is supressed in us. Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me". He knew quite well that man was created to be a vessel in which He could dwell. The Holy Spirit must "renew" the knowledge of God in us that has been darkened by satan and sin.

One is not born knowing that God exist......it must be taught or revealed. No one is born with the Holy Spirit (except John the Baptist), it is given at baptism after the laying on of hands, by a minister of God.

Our very life comes from God. We either deny or acknowledge that fact.

And only those that are filled with God's Spirit will know or understand this.

 

[Vince]

I can't find it, but somebody had posted that God blinds people in order to bring them to Him. I did find a passage that teaches that, however. Romans 11 tells us:

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded...
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

 

[Bazz1040]

I can't find it, but somebody had posted that God blinds people in order to bring them to Him. I did find a passage that teaches that, however. Romans 11 tells us:

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded...
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

Well, it’s not God that have blinded the minds of people, it is Satan, but God allows it so that He will have mercy on them.


2 Corinthians 4:4 (ESV)
4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Romans 11:32 (BBE)
32 For God has let them all go against his orders, so that he might have mercy on them all.

 

[glorydaz]

Obviously, since the Bible tells us this.



One is not born knowing that God exist......it must be taught or revealed. No one is born with the Holy Spirit (except John the Baptist), it is given at baptism after the laying on of hands, by a minister of God.



And only those that are filled with God's Spirit will know or understand this.

I don't agree. One doesn't have to be "born of the Spirit" in order to know there is a God. We are made in the image of God. We are His creatures and we see God in creation. "For the invisible thing of him from the creation are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made." Therefore, man is without excuse.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

There is a difference between knowing God exists and being filled with the Spirit and saved.