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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Predestination
- Thread starter Oats
- Start date
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savedbygrace57
Guest
gloryd:
Not until we are being conformed to the Image of Christ who is the Image of God 2 cor 4:
4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them
Not until we are being conformed to the Image of Christ who is the Image of God 2 cor 4:
4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them
Bazz1040
Member
Seeing God's creation does not mean that a person will automatically know that God is the one that created it. If that were so God would not have seen the need to speak to men in the Old Testament.....we would not need the Bible. Obviously of course during the time when Adam was alive men knew of the true God, but as time went on the succeeding generation lost that and started to worship god's they created in their mind.
To know the true God one needs to be filled with His Spirit, or the individual will either not believe in any god or believe in a false god.
Bazz1040
Member
That was addressed to those specific people whom the prophet was sent to. But in the New Testament, when Jesus walked the streets of Jerusalem, He spoke in parables to hide the truth of God. But hiding something is not the same as blinding a person to the truth.
Finishing our study of Romans 1, we read "21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
These people were not darkened until AFTER they knew God but rejected Him. The entire passage shows us that God reveals Himself to unsaved men, they understand this revelation, and they reject it.
Saint Augustine invented the doctrine that unsaved men cannot respond to God. Twelve centuries later, Arminius discovered a fatal flaw in Augustine's (and Calvin's) logic: if unsaved men cannot respond to God, then when God gives grace to the elect, they cannot respond. Calvinism couldn't work. Period.
And so it was that around the year 1605 the philosophy of irresistible grace was invented to patch this flaw.
These people were not darkened until AFTER they knew God but rejected Him. The entire passage shows us that God reveals Himself to unsaved men, they understand this revelation, and they reject it.
Saint Augustine invented the doctrine that unsaved men cannot respond to God. Twelve centuries later, Arminius discovered a fatal flaw in Augustine's (and Calvin's) logic: if unsaved men cannot respond to God, then when God gives grace to the elect, they cannot respond. Calvinism couldn't work. Period.
And so it was that around the year 1605 the philosophy of irresistible grace was invented to patch this flaw.
One of Calvinism's many errors is the doctrine that "all men" means "only the elect." However, neither the Bible, classical Greek, nor the dictionary permit this definition.
Speaking of which, God wants all men to be saved:
John 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
John 12:47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
Speaking of which, God wants all men to be saved:
John 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
John 12:47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
vince:
It does when it pertains to salvation. For that is the only People Christ died for, the True Christ anyway..
It does when it pertains to salvation. For that is the only People Christ died for, the True Christ anyway..
No, "all" refers to "all," even when it applies to salvation.
John 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
John 12:47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
John 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
John 12:47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
vince:
No it does not, thats presumption..All only applies to all the chosen of God, all of the many, all of the Church, or all of the seed of Abraham, or all of the Children of God or Promise or all of those the Father have given Him..
Jn 17:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jn 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Have all without exception been given to Christ by the Father ? Absolutely not, for many Jesus will say to them these words:
Matt 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
How could He say that to them His Father gave Him to die for ?
No it does not, thats presumption..All only applies to all the chosen of God, all of the many, all of the Church, or all of the seed of Abraham, or all of the Children of God or Promise or all of those the Father have given Him..
Jn 17:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jn 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Have all without exception been given to Christ by the Father ? Absolutely not, for many Jesus will say to them these words:
Matt 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
How could He say that to them His Father gave Him to die for ?
"No it does not, thats presumption."
Sorry, but "all" means "all." In the Bible, in classical Greek, and in the dictionary. Humorously enough, the verses you quoted clearly explain that they refer to "all" who accept Christ. If "all" only meant "those who accept Christ," that explanation would not have been necessary.
Sorry, but "all" means "all." In the Bible, in classical Greek, and in the dictionary. Humorously enough, the verses you quoted clearly explain that they refer to "all" who accept Christ. If "all" only meant "those who accept Christ," that explanation would not have been necessary.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
vince:
presumption and lack of study on your part..
presumption and lack of study on your part..
Vince, I dont know why I even write, I am convinced you are not reading anyone else's posts. You never respond to arguments offered. For this reason, I will let my tone be a little sharper. You definitely deserve it. You have been trolling in this thread for a long time.
Your understanding of the term "all" (pas pasa pan) is way to shallow to be even in the ball park. No one who is a student of the greek language is going to take you seriously. Your excused for your mistake because you do not know any better. I doubt you could identify the nominative form of pas in the three genders.
But the issue is not just greek. If you had the ability, there are tools that an english bible student could use to get at the meaning of the term "all" (pas). You would have to have a greek concordance and look up the word pas, pasa, pan (answer to previous comment just given!), and its uses in the GNT to establish how the word is used. While you do not need to know greek to do that, I doubt you have any idea of the bible study methods I am referring to right now.
Most vocabulary cards will give the simlistic meaning of "all" or "every" for the term. There are times in the GNT that the word pas is translated "Every." Frequently, in the GNT, when used with a participle it is translated "whosoever" or "whoever."
Lets look at just at one verse and its use of the term "all" ....
Mark 1:5 And there went out unto him all the country of Judaea, and all they of Jerusalem; And they were baptised of him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
*** The term "all" is used twice in this verse. To be consistent, would you take the view that every man, woman, child, infant, sickly grandparent, that each and every individual without exception came to John at the Jordan, confessed their sins, and was baptised by John in the Jordan? Even if you take the concept that the verse refers only to Judaea and Jerusalem, would you agree that the entire city of Jerusalem was empty? Was all Judaea empty? Did John Baptise each and every infant and person in Judaea and Jerusalem?
If you do not believe in infant baptism, your in trouble in this verse if "all meams all." Of course you can always ignore this argument and continue trolling. So then, the term "all" has shades of different meanings based upon context.
I could also post comments on the verses you posted up the thread. I have done so, several times before. I am not going to the work to type out corrections of those references because you would not approach the subject in an honest, upright fashion anyway. If you actually get to the place where you will be honest and upright in your discussion of some text, I would be happy to discuss the term "all" in one of the texts you post. Let me know (or ignore the content of this post as you have done every time in this thread).
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savedbygrace57
Guest
You do not study, its evident. All should not be teachers, for they shall receive greater judgment.
Jeremiah 13:11 gives another example of how God calls men to Him, but they resist that call.
"'For as the sash clings to the waist of a man, so I have caused the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah to cling to Me,' says the LORD, 'that they may become My people, for renown, for praise, and for glory; but they would not hear.'"
"'For as the sash clings to the waist of a man, so I have caused the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah to cling to Me,' says the LORD, 'that they may become My people, for renown, for praise, and for glory; but they would not hear.'"
Drew
Member
As you know, I have agreed with your critique of Vince's approach to interpreting the Bible. However, application of the (proper) principle you deploy undercuts some of the texts that people often use to support predestination.
Ephesians 1 is perhaps the best example. Although the argument is lengthy, I suggest that the proper reading of this text:
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
....does not support the doctrine of pre-destination, at least as it is generally understood as being "general" over all human beings. Understood in light of what the author goes on to say later in the letter, the "us" here cannot refer to the set of all pre-destined persons - it must refer to a small set of persons.
In other words, I suggest that Paul is indeed embracing pre-destination here, but only of a very special small set of people who "kick-started" the church.
Jesus wanted Jerusalem to be saved, but they rejected salvation.
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!
What a perfect example of ad-hominim argumentation.
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savedbygrace57
Guest
All who have been Chosen in Christ, fell in Adam, so as a provision, God predestnated them before the Fall to the Adoption of Children through Jesus Christ..
eph 1:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
You see, because of our fall in Adam, we [The Chosen] are born of a corruptible seed. But due to our being Chosen in Christ we shall be born of a incorruptible seed, the Word of God which liveth and abideth for ever 1 pet 1:
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
eph 1:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
You see, because of our fall in Adam, we [The Chosen] are born of a corruptible seed. But due to our being Chosen in Christ we shall be born of a incorruptible seed, the Word of God which liveth and abideth for ever 1 pet 1:
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.