Predestination

[mondar]

Jesus wanted Jerusalem to be saved, but they rejected salvation.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

This is a frequently abused text. Let me add a quick note on the proper reading of the verse....

Jesus calls the leaders "O Jerusalem Jerusalem." Those leaders were the ones who killed the prophets and rejected Jesus. It was these leaders called "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem," that were unwilling to allow the children to be gathered together by Christ. Notice that Jesus did not want to gather the leaders together, but he says he wanted to gather the children together. There is a difference between the leaders (O Jerusalem) and the common people (children).

Did Jesus want to save the children (not each and every Jew in Jerusalem without exception)? Certainly. And if Jesus wanted to save them, he will, and he did. This was despite the fact that the leaders were unwilling for this to happen.

If you go back up and look at Vince's application, it is really really disconnected from the text. Vince says Jesus wanted Jerusalem to be saved. The text never says that. Jesus wanted the children of Jerusalem to be gathered.
* Possibly the concept of gathered does have reference to salvation, maybe it does. This could also be discussed. However, Vince continues to show no interest in discussing any of the texts he quotes, but will merely jump to another text. So to shorten the post, I will not persue the "gathered" issue.

 

[mondar]

Finishing our study of Romans 1, we read "21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

These people were not darkened until AFTER they knew God but rejected Him. The entire passage shows us that God reveals Himself to unsaved men, they understand this revelation, and they reject it.

I am amazed how bad Vince can botch his understanding of Calvinism and not even blush. His misrepresentations mean nothing to him. This post is very much a misrepresentation of Calvinism. Vince has to totally reinvent Calvinism into such a distorted form that I hardly recognize it.

More specificly, Vince expresses that God hardened hearts of unbelievers after they rejected him. I have no problem with the concept, but I hope I would never abuse the text to support the concept as Vince has done.

First, Vince assumes that the Gospel has been presented and rejected. The Gospel might be a major issue in the book of Romans, but it is not the Gospel that is being presented to these men that have their hearts hardened. IF you go back up to verse 20, you will see that men perceive God by "the things that are made." That clause refers to the created universe. At the end of verse 20, men are "without excuse" not because they had the gospel presented to them and rejected it, but because they rejected the knowledge of God found in nature.

Vince is not actually working on texts, he is merely doing a recitation of his tradition that certain texts mean certain things.

Saint Augustine invented the doctrine that unsaved men cannot respond to God. Twelve centuries later, Arminius discovered a fatal flaw in Augustine's (and Calvin's) logic: if unsaved men cannot respond to God, then when God gives grace to the elect, they cannot respond. Calvinism couldn't work. Period.

And so it was that around the year 1605 the philosophy of irresistible grace was invented to patch this flaw.

Certainly Calvinism and the scripture teaches that the elect are just as incapable as the non-elect at having saving faith. That part of what Vince said is true. But Calvinists also believe God is able to do that which man is incapable of doing. Calvinists believe that the Holy Spirit changes the nature of those God has chosen, and God draws these regenerated people to faith. We believe that salvation, and faith, is totally the work of God. Vince totally missed this concept in his challenge above.

Does anyone else notice that in the post I quoted from Vince, he assumes that God cannot be the source of the power to have faith? It did not even occur to him! Does anyone notice that Vince assumes that the Elect must somehow have their own power to believe? Is anyone else astonished by such bad argumentation?

 

[Vince]

Mondar writes:

Jesus calls the leaders "O Jerusalem Jerusalem." No, He called Jerusalem "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem."

Those leaders were the ones who killed the prophets. No, they hadn't even been born when that happened.

It was these leaders called "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem," that were unwilling to allow the children to be gathered together by Christ. No, that was the disciples, but Jesus corrected them.

Notice that Jesus did not want to gather the leaders together, "The phrase "the leaders" does not appear anywhere in this passage. Since Jesus enlightens all men and draws all men to Himself, He wanted all the leaders to be saved. Elsewhere, the New Testament tells us that many of the leaders did come to Christ.

 

[mondar]

Mondar writes:

Jesus calls the leaders "O Jerusalem Jerusalem." No, He called Jerusalem "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem."

Those leaders were the ones who killed the prophets. No, they hadn't even been born when that happened.

I was not referring to just the leaders of Jesus day, but the leaders of Jerusalem in many days including Jesus day. So yes, those leaders killed the prophets, and Jesus.

It was these leaders called "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem," that were unwilling to allow the children to be gathered together by Christ. No, that was the disciples, but Jesus corrected them.

Notice that Jesus did not want to gather the leaders together, "The phrase "the leaders" does not appear anywhere in this passage. Since Jesus enlightens all men and draws all men to Himself, He wanted all the leaders to be saved. Elsewhere, the New Testament tells us that many of the leaders did come to Christ.

Can you give reasons for your suggestion that it was the disciples? I can give contextual reasons that "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem" should be understood as the leaders. Go back in the chapter. Jesus pronounces "Woes" upon the scribes and the Pharisees. Jesus is not speaking of disciples in the context, but of the leaders of the nation in Jerusalem. Can you give reasons for your rejection of contextual evidence?

The NT lists two leaders that came to Christ, not "many." The term "many" is absurd. Of course I am not suggesting that God rejected all leaders without exception, but he rejected the leaders as a group.

Concerning your references to Jesus "enlightening all men...." Your position on that verse is self contradictory. You say Jesus is the light of every man, but that some men reject the light. Then those men cannot see the light, right? So then, Jesus does not lighten every man in the world.

I think you are suggesting that Jesus tries to enlighten every man but fails. Of course Jesus cannot enlgihten every man because men have the sovereignty to reject that light. Either that, or you are a unversalist.

Concerning the term drawing, John 6:44 is clear that all men drawn are saved. Possibly you have reference to John 12. There the text is saying "all" kinds of men. Christ's cross will drawn both Jew and Gentile. If you want to again move to yet a different context, we can do that, where do want to go in your endless trail. If you will, at sometime can you stay in one text.

 

[savedbygrace57]

vince:

Jesus wanted Jerusalem to be saved, but they rejected salvation.

More falsehood, It was a predetermined purpose for National Israel to be blinded, for the grafting in of the gentiles rom 11.

The people of the jews had been appointed to disobedience 1 pet 2:

7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

The only jews Jesus was interested in giving salvation was those of the election of grace, the rest were blinded..rom 11:


7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Jesus expressed purpose was to make blind many in Israel Jn 9:

39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

vince, you are being held accountable to God for your teaching..

 

[Vince]

I hope you readers who are following this thread can see the same thing that the Calvinists see: if "Jerusalem" means "Jerusalem," then Calvinism collapses.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Paul makes this statement to who ? who is the us that had been predestinated unto the adoption of sons ? Why its all whom He said had been Chosen in Christ before the foundation eph 1:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Those, and those only are the ones predestinated unto the adoption of Sons in time.

The Fall in Adam did nothing to thwart God's Eternal Purpose in Christ, but only played a necessary role in its accomplishment..

 

[Vince]

We have seen, and the Calvinists agree, that if "Jerusalem" means "Jerusalem," then Calvinism collapses. So let's see what "Jerusalem" means.

In each passage, Jesus says the word "Jerusalem" twice. For most of us, once is enough. But before the foundation of the world God knew about Mani and Saint Augustine, and He works to bring his people out from their philosophies.

In Matthew, the last verse before the passage has Jesus stating "36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." This shows that Jesus meant the current generation, not just the leaders. In the very next verse, Jesus begins describing the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, even continuing into the next chapter (chapter divisions are not inspired by God).

In Luke, the last verse before the passage is "33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem." It is clear that "Jerusalem" means "Jerusalem," not "the leaders." So we see that "Jerusalem" means "Jerusalem," and that Jesus wanted Jerusalem to be saved, but they rejected Him.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Those Chosen had been predestinated to trust in Christ for His Glory eph 1:

11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. NIV

Trusting in Christ is #1 a result of predestination, being Chosen and #2 And that it may be for the Praise of His Glory..

 

[savedbygrace57]

He is Heir of All things ! Since when ?

Heb 1:


2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

This scripture, plainly states that the Son, Christ Jesus has been appointed Heir of all things. When do we suppose God the Father made this appointment ?

Was it before or after Adam was created ?

I believe this appointment was in the Eternal Counsels of God eph 3:


11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:


Before a single creature was created or came into being, God hath appointed His Son Heir of all things..

It was the purposed and predestined reward for His Sufferings on the Cross for the sins of the people.

This appointment of Christ to the inheritance was alluded to in Old Testament scripture:

Also I will make Him My Firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth see Ps. 89:27.

Firstborn in scripture refers to dignity and inheritance as per gen 49:


3 Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:

Who He was as the Heir, Satan inspiried His enemies against Him to slay Him Mk 12:7

But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.'

This indicates, that even before His death and resurrection that He was the Heir of God..

You see, Adam was never God's Firstborn Heir, his role was subordinate to that of His..

Christ was to receive the reward of His Heirship through Adams sin, by redeeming the elect people from the fall of adam..
​

 

[Vince]

The subject of "comparing Scripture with Scripture" had come up a little while ago, and I need to discuss it.

Reading the Bible, a Christian will eventually find Jesus saying "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him." BY ITSELF, that verse teaches only that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. When you read the next verse, Jesus explains that all men are taught by God, and that those who respond come to Christ. That's comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Another Christian studies the philosophies of men cursed by God, and he is deceived by them. They teach him that election is unconditional, rather than based on foreknowledge. Then they quote "No one can come to me unless the Father draw him" as a proof text. The Christian doesn't understand that the Bible is only a secondary source of authority, designed only to support a theological system.

Later, when other verses are used to show that the system is in error, the system uses other "proof texts," also adding meanings that they do not have. The system then teaches that you can refute Scripture by quoting Scripture.

 

[Bazz1040]

The subject of "comparing Scripture with Scripture" had come up a little while ago, and I need to discuss it.

Reading the Bible, a Christian will eventually find Jesus saying "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him." BY ITSELF, that verse teaches only that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. When you read the next verse, Jesus explains that all men are taught by God, and that those who respond come to Christ. That's comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Another Christian studies the philosophies of men cursed by God, and he is deceived by them. They teach him that election is unconditional, rather than based on foreknowledge. Then they quote "No one can come to me unless the Father draw him" as a proof text. The Christian doesn't understand that the Bible is only a secondary source of authority, designed only to support a theological system.

Later, when other verses are used to show that the system is in error, the system uses other "proof texts," also adding meanings that they do not have. The system then teaches that you can refute Scripture by quoting Scripture.

No it does not say that all men will be taught be God. Verse 45 is a continuation of the thought of verse 44. It is saying that those who are drawn by the Father will be taught by Him. So the all in that verse is talking about all those that are drawn to Jesus by the Father.

John 6:44-45 (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

Since it is the Father draws the individual they will come to Jesus. If one is not drawn by the Father then how can such a person be taught by God?

 

[Vince]

My friend Bazz asks: "If one is not drawn by the Father then how can such a person be taught by God?"

First, John 6:46 explicitly states that all men are taught by God. When the Father teaches them, they ARE drawn by the Father. But how does God do this?

Jesus enlightens all men; Jesus draws all men to Himself; the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment; God grants repentance to all men; and the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

 

[Bazz1040]

My friend Bazz asks: "If one is not drawn by the Father then how can such a person be taught by God?"

First, John 6:46 explicitly states that all men are taught by God. When the Father teaches them, they ARE drawn by the Father. But how does God do this?

Jesus enlightens all men; Jesus draws all men to Himself; the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment; God grants repentance to all men; and the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

There is nowhere in verse 46 that says all men are taught by God. Let me post it for all to see.

John 6:46 (KJV)
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

The only ones that are taught by God are the ones that hear His call and responds.


And salvation being appeared to all men is a separate issue......it simply means that Jesus paid the price for the sins of all people......all are saved, though not all have accepted that salvation, because not all at this point in time has been called.

 

[craigmn3]

Re: He is Heir of All things ! Since when ?

Adam is human, Jesus is God. I don't see the application.
NO human is "begotten" of God, save Jesus (Yes both God and Man) if as according to Romans 8, we can claim sonship with God, it is by adoption.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: He is Heir of All things ! Since when ?

When were belivers made Joint Heirs with Christ ? rom 8:

17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Remember the writer of Hebrews wrote heb 2:

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

 

[Vince]

Good Heavens, Bazz, you're right! It's John 6:45! I humbumbumbly apologize!

45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

 

[Bazz1040]

Good Heavens, Bazz, you're right! It's John 6:45! I humbumbumbly apologize!

45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

But still the all in that verse is not talking those who were not dawn to Jesus by the Father. Remember, that even in Jesus' Earthly ministry, though He preached the gospel of the kingdom openly, and spoke many parables to the people to hide the gospel from them, He only explained the meaning to the twelve disciples in private, like a teacher that teaches his or her students out of sight of those who are not in that class or the school.

 

[Vince]

Sorry, Bazz, but as you are probably aware, Calvinism collapses if "all" means "all." The passage shows that God teaches all men, and that those who respond come to Christ.

Elsewhere, the Bible teaches that Jesus enlightens every man who comes into the world, that Jesus draws all men to Himself, that God has granted repentance to the Jews and the Gentiles, that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, and that God calls all men everywhere to repent.

 

[savedbygrace57]

My friend Bazz asks: "If one is not drawn by the Father then how can such a person be taught by God?"

First, John 6:46 explicitly states that all men are taught by God. When the Father teaches them, they ARE drawn by the Father. But how does God do this?

Jesus enlightens all men; Jesus draws all men to Himself; the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment; God grants repentance to all men; and the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Wow, you sure know how to twist scripture truth, get ready for Judgment day..

None of those things apply to the non elect, the goats, the tares..