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Predestination

Sorry, Bazz, but as you are probably aware, Calvinism collapses if "all" means "all." The passage shows that God teaches all men, and that those who respond come to Christ.

I am teaching Calvinism, what I am saying has to do with the contest of whom it is addressing. You are take a verse out of the contest of what came before it.....verse 44 and 45 are of the same thought. It is all those that have learned from the Father will go to Jesus.......those are the all that Jesus is talking about.

Elsewhere, the Bible teaches that Jesus enlightens every man who comes into the world, that Jesus draws all men to Himself, that God has granted repentance to the Jews and the Gentiles, that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, and that God calls all men everywhere to repent.

You are confusing what Jesus did on the cross with what Jesus said in John 6.......the two are not the same things.
 
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I used to be against this...not so much anymore


What're your thoughts?

I do not believe in predestination. The Lord has a wonderful plan for each of us. All we have to do is obey his will. If we obey his will, his plan will come true. Yes?
 
"Wow, you sure know how to twist scripture truth, get ready for Judgment day.." I hope you readers see that Calvinism is a religion of fear and accusations.

"None of those things apply to the non elect, the goats, the tares.." They apply to "every man that comes into the world," and to "all men everywhere." I hope you readers see what the Calvinists see: if "all" means "all," then Calvinism collapses.
 
vince:

They apply to "every man that comes into the world,"

Not to those Christ shall say to them "I never knew you "

Matt 7:


23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
I do not believe in predestination. The Lord has a wonderful plan for each of us. All we have to do is obey his will. If we obey his will, his plan will come true. Yes?

You oppose the bible then..You do not believe in predestination..
 
vince

Sorry, Bazz, but as you are probably aware, Calvinism collapses if "all" means "all." The passage shows that God teaches all men, and that those who respond come to Christ.

All does mean all, just not all without exception..

All the seed rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
 
My allegiance is to Jesus Christ.

Not the one I serve..I here that in the last days there shall be many Christ. Matt 24:


24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.
 
My friend Bazz asks: "If one is not drawn by the Father then how can such a person be taught by God?"

First, John 6:46 explicitly states that all men are taught by God. When the Father teaches them, they ARE drawn by the Father. But how does God do this?

Jesus enlightens all men; Jesus draws all men to Himself; the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment; God grants repentance to all men; and the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Concerning John 6....
The quoting of verse 46 is an error. Verse 45 is the passage Vince is referring to.

Verse 45 is the scriptural support for Jesus statements in verse 44. This is obvious because the verse begins with the phrase "It is written in the prophets." The word "all" does occur in verse 45. Rather then simply recite a tradition on the term "all" please look at the rest of the verse, and the context. There are two reasons that the insertion of the tradition of Vince concerning the word "all" cannot be inserted into the verse. These two reasons have to do with the fact that the context demands that the "all" are saved.

Reason 1------In verse 44, it is clear that all who are drawn (and all who are taught of God), are saved. The phrase in verse 44 "and I will raise him up on the last day" refers to salvation. Those raised up are drawn. Those drawn, according to the prophets are "taught of God." What happens to them? They are raised up on the last day. If one looks at the end of verse 40 where the same identical phrase occurs, it can be seen that this refers to a resurrection to "eternal life." Verse 40 is clear that the one raised up possesses "eternal life." So then, those drawn in verse 44 are saved.

Reason 2------ In verse 45, the result of being taught of God, and those who "heard" and "learned" must be all saved. This can be seen at the end of verse 45 in the phrase "cometh unto me." This phrase is repeated in the context. In verse 37 those given by the father, "all" of them come to Christ. Again, if "all" means all men without exception, we have universalism. In verse 39, of "all that which he hath given me..." In verse 38, if the term "All" means all men without excpetion, we again have universalism, because Christ says "I will loose nothing" and then "but should raise it up on the last day."

*** I dont think Vince is actually a universalist, but he is merely inconsistent in a major way. If "all" means "all men without exception" in John 6, it is an inescapable conclusion that Vince is a universalist.

A second reason the term "all" in verse 45 refers to only the saved is because of the term "cometh unto me" at the end of verse 45. So then, all those "Taught of God" and those who "herd from the FAther" and those who "learned" are saved.

While Vinces view absolutely leads to a universalistic interpretation.
 
Not the one I serve..I here that in the last days there shall be many Christ. Matt 24:


24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

My allegiance is to Jesus Christ, the only Son of God.
 
The teachings of Jesus Christ are found in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, I’m sure you know. Where does Jesus speak of predestination?

e:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]John 6.44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [/FONT][/FONT]
 
e:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]John 6.44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [/FONT][/FONT]

That doesn’t sound like predestination to me.
 
Welcome aboard, Elijah.

We have seen that Calvinism collapses if "all" means "all," or if "Jerusalem" means "Jerusalem." The same thing applies to the word "world."

The statement "For God so loved the world..." is so simple that you have to study theology to be confused by it. Other Scriptures tell us that Christians are not of the world, and are not to love the world. We are not to be conformed to the world, and the things that are of the world are not of God.
 
I do not believe in predestination. The Lord has a wonderful plan for each of us. All we have to do is obey his will. If we obey his will, his plan will come true. Yes?

Predestined or predestination is mentioned in the Bible.

Romans 8:29 (ESV)
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
 
Elijah, I can see that you've been giving this important matter some serious thought. We could go to Heaven by obeying God's will, but none of us obey God's will:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."


Fortunately, God made a way for us to go to Heaven despite our sinfulness:

"But God proved His love towards us, because, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."


We cannot earn our way into Heaven by being good, because we're not good enough. However, God will take you to Heaven as a gift.

"For the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord."


The gift of going to Heaven is offered only through Jesus Christ:

"Jesus said unto him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except by Me.'"
 
e:

My basic hermeneutics are as follows:

By God's grace, I go to the Bible to find out what He says He does, and wonder at His grace in the Gospel.

I don't first decide what God 'ought' to do according to my reasoning and then read into the Bible what I want it to say.
 
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