Predestination

[Iconoclast]

It would be better if you dropped the "you are....." in your responses when faced with reasons you cannot refute. They are personal attacks. Focus on defending the theology although hardly defensible, I admit. There are not many options available in many cases besides the personal attack.

You look to go to carnal reasoning and logic. You make emotional reasons why you do not" think" , or feel, it could be the way it is described. Everything you have been posting is and has been refuted. You do not accept that,
To observe what you post, or what you post is not an"attack", but an exposing of your error.
I agree when I can, but most often do not agree as you are set to oppose any thing Calvinists post.
I could call what you do an "attack" but instead I go with whatever is offered.
You are off the correct path from what I can see, yet you go along thinking I need to answer to your strawmen.

 

[Iconoclast]

A perfect example of my point. "God decrees sin, He is not the Author of sin." This is self-contradictory and cannot both be true. There are always a lot of words (chaff) to cover up this obvious illogical position. As I have said, those who teach this or even hold this view, will be read their words before the throne of God and have to give an answer for the position that God purposely "decreed that man sins." If I were the judge, I would ask the man which sins did God decree. And they will have to look into the eyes of that loving, pure and holy Being and tell him to his face that they believe that he decreed some awful sin. That will not be a pleasant experience.

(Btw, I recommend everyone consider what they claim God does and run it by God Himself as to what He says to their representation (or misrepensentation) of Him.

Sin exists.
Nothing can exist unless God has ordained it to exist.
God does not cause any sin.
God cannot sin.

Why was Jesus the lamb slain before the world was ?
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of
the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Before Adam and Eve sinned and rebelled against God why were they told?
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
What evil? they did not sin yet. Do you have an answer to these questions, if you do you can solve the issue for yourself.

 

[GodsGrace]

It would be better if you dropped the "you are....." in your responses when faced with reasons you cannot refute. They are personal attacks. Focus on defending the theology although hardly defensible, I admit. There are not many options available in many cases besides the personal attack.

I wouldn't call it a personal attack.
I don't even reply to this stuff.
I would say that it's putting words in another's mouth.
Some persons speak this way without meaning it in a derogatory manner.
It would be nice though, if Iconoclast stopped doing this.
It's misrepresenting what a member believes --- only the member could know what they beleive.

 

[GodsGrace]

You look to go to carnal reasoning and logic. You make emotional reasons why you do not" think" , or feel, it could be the way it is described. Everything you have been posting is and has been refuted. You do not accept that,
To observe what you post, or what you post is not an"attack", but an exposing of your error.
I agree when I can, but most often do not agree as you are set to oppose any thing Calvinists post.
I could call what you do an "attack" but instead I go with whatever is offered.
You are off the correct path from what I can see, yet you go along thinking I need to answer to your strawmen.

Because you refute something does not mean the other member has to accept it.
If you notice, most members here do not agree with you - there must be a reason...
We cannot all be on the "wrong path".
A person must always consider that perhaps THEY are on the wrong path.
I've stopped to consider many verses since being on this forum.
We can all be wrong...I think you can explain where we go wrong instead of telling us what you believe to be right?
You had started doing this in our conversation...
It's just that I can't go on forever...
Dorothy Mae has much more stamina than I do.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sin exists.
Nothing can exist unless God has ordained it to exist.
God does not cause any sin.
God cannot sin.

Why was Jesus the lamb slain before the world was ?
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of
the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Before Adam and Eve sinned and rebelled against God why were they told?
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
What evil? they did not sin yet. Do you have an answer to these questions, if you do you can solve the issue for yourself.

This is the most asked question in the Christian faith, the Jewish faith, and the Islamic faith.
Unfortunately, there is no answer.
We cannot know where evil comes from BECAUSE THE BIBLE DOES NOT STATE THIS.

However, because it does not tell us, we cannot go ahead and attribute it to God.
If God created evil, we're in the hands of a sadistic God.

Instead of telling me I'm blaspheming God, why not go ahead and explain how I'm wrong...


The Confession states that God EITHER:
DECREED EVERYTHING and
PREDESTINED EVERYTHING....

IF this is true...it also includes sin, as Piper, MaCarthur and Sproul, all conseeded.

If God created sin,
HOW could He not be a sinner?
Creating sin is WORSE than sinning.

This is a conflict.
It matters not what the Confession states...
Actions matter.
Don't tell me you love me...SHOW ME.

God is not a God of confusion.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sin exists.
Nothing can exist unless God has ordained it to exist.
God does not cause any sin.
God cannot sin.

Why was Jesus the lamb slain before the world was ?
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of
the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Before Adam and Eve sinned and rebelled against God why were they told?
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
What evil? they did not sin yet. Do you have an answer to these questions, if you do you can solve the issue for yourself.

I do have a fairly satisfactory understanding of the answer to this question but as you suggest, it is solved for myself. It would take considerable background first it in any case so I welcome your suggestion. A great deal has to do with understanding the ways of God and they are very complex, more complex than science in my experience which makes sense. The artist is always more complex than the created art. So I will just say I appreciate your suggestion and will keep the understanding I have to myself.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This is the most asked question in the Christian faith, the Jewish faith, and the Islamic faith.
Unfortunately, there is no answer.
We cannot know where evil comes from BECAUSE THE BIBLE DOES NOT STATE THIS.

However, because it does not tell us, we cannot go ahead and attribute it to God.
If God created evil, we're in the hands of a sadistic God.

Instead of telling me I'm blaspheming God, why not go ahead and explain how I'm wrong...


The Confession states that God EITHER:
DECREED EVERYTHING and
PREDESTINED EVERYTHING....

IF this is true...it also includes sin, as Piper, MaCarthur and Sproul, all conseeded.

If God created sin,
HOW could He not be a sinner?
Creating sin is WORSE than sinning.

This is a conflict.
It matters not what the Confession states...
Actions matter.
Don't tell me you love me...SHOW ME.

God is not a God of confusion.

Only one correction, there IS AN ANSWER. There are always answers in the Kingdom of God. Always.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is the most asked question in the Christian faith, the Jewish faith, and the Islamic faith.
Unfortunately, there is no answer.
We cannot know where evil comes from BECAUSE THE BIBLE DOES NOT STATE THIS.

However, because it does not tell us, we cannot go ahead and attribute it to God.
If God created evil, we're in the hands of a sadistic God.

Instead of telling me I'm blaspheming God, why not go ahead and explain how I'm wrong...


The Confession states that God EITHER:
DECREED EVERYTHING and
PREDESTINED EVERYTHING....

IF this is true...it also includes sin, as Piper, MaCarthur and Sproul, all conseeded.

If God created sin,
HOW could He not be a sinner?
Creating sin is WORSE than sinning.

This is a conflict.
It matters not what the Confession states...
Actions matter.
Don't tell me you love me...SHOW ME.

God is not a God of confusion.

I have posted this earlier;
5 Note the statement made by the Scofield Reference Bible: “Heb. ra, translated ‘sorrow,’ ‘wretchedness,’ ‘adversity,’ ‘afflictions,’ ‘calamities,’ but never translated sin. God created evil only in the sense that he made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin.” p. 754. [r; (ra'), however, is the common word for moral evil and, although never translated “sin,” it is translated hundreds of times as “evil,” and eighty–one times as “wicked,” “wickedly” and “wickedness,” referring to all types of sins. In this context neither peace nor evil can be used in such a restricted sense as the Scofield Reference Bible has attempted to give these parallel terms, as the Scriptures in their use of these revea

8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.
Sin did not originate with the fall [apostasy] of man. Sin originated in the spirit [angelic] world. Lucifer [Satan, the devil] apostatized from God and took a number of angelic beings with him. He it was in the guise of the serpent who tempted Adam and Eve and through this brought about the fall of mankind. The entrance of sin into the human race came through Adam’s willful disobedience to the explicit commandment of God (Gen. 2:16–17; 3:1–7; Rom. 5:12; 3:23).8 The human race apostatized from God in Adam as their representative head.In dealing with the origin of sin, however, we must come to terms, not only with its history as revealed in Scripture, but also with its relation to an absolutely just or righteous and holy God. Holding the Scriptures to be the inspired, infallible Word of God inscripturated, we must accept their record as to the origin of sin.
9 This is the thinking of some professing Christians when they reduce their concept of God to the level of the devil, making them equals—a pagan, dualistic concept. Such [non–] thinking is present in such statements as, “God casts his vote, the devil casts his vote, and now it’s up to you to cast your vote,” when referring to the election of sinners to salvation. Such talk is utterly irrational. It is to hold a concept of God that is simply not scriptural, for the Word reveals that God is absolutely sovereign, even over the evil acts of men—and Scripture is the ultimate authority.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only one correction, there IS AN ANSWER. There are always answers in the Kingdom of God. Always.

Since we're in the PREDESTNATION thread, I guess we could discuss this in the sense of this:
DID GOD PREDESTINE EVIL?

If the answer is no, then we do have to figure out where it comes from.
I must say that the reformed do have an answer to this:
GOD CREATED EVIL.

Except, if that's true, the entire bible is WRONG, and we cannot trust it.

We've had this convo before, you could just ignore this post if you so choose.
No problem.

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2;
GOD IS SOVEREIGN OVER EVIL The last view—that God is absolutely sovereign over both natural and moral evil,11 and uses evil for his own glory and the highest good—is the only view that can be consistently aligned to the teaching of Scripture. Every other view, deriving from sinful [incapacitated by the noetic effects of sin and willful rebellion against God and his truth] humanistic reasoning, and so calling God and his actions into question, seeks to point out an incoherence in the Christian system. These views either deny God and evil, or limit God and seek to bring him down to the finite level and destroy his moral self–consistency—and thus any sufficient or consistent basis for morality.12 The truth of the sovereignty of God over evil may be clarified by the following considerations and implications: • The existence of evil in a universe created and governed by a benevolent God is not incoherent if God has a morally sufficient reason for this evil to exist. This “problem” is more psychological than logical or philosophical.13 Man would rather call God and his actions into question than submit himself in complete trust (Rom. 9:11–24), even to a God who is benevolent in the context of his righteousness.
10 Some of this group hold that God is either working in a utilitarian fashion as best he can, or that he merely foresaw evil and its results, but was not able to prevent them; or that there are some situations brought about by morally free agents that even God did not foresee. While the latter two are somewhat extreme, the idea that God merely foresaw or foreknew evil would not remove culpability from God. If God foresaw what would happen and then laid his plans accordingly, then he could have prevented sins, but evidently chose not to do so. Thus, God would be ultimately responsible for sin by allowing it, yet not controlling it for the highest good and his glory. Further, if God merely foresaw evil as a certainty—and it must have been certain for God to foresee it as such in the biblical sense—then God himself could not have prevented sin. Sin would have existed and been determined by a force outside God. He would thus finitely exist within a “universe” over which he exercised no ultimate control, a “universe” controlled in the final sense by an atheistic determinism!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Since we're in the PREDESTNATION thread, I guess we could discuss this in the sense of this:
DID GOD PREDESTINE EVIL?

Very good back to the OP steering. Quite nice. No, God did not predestine evil.

If the answer is no, then we do have to figure out where it comes from.

No more than we have to figure out where peace or goodness or lying come from.

I must say that the reformed do have an answer to this:
GOD CREATED EVIL.

Yes, they accuse God of creating evil. They will stand one day and answer to that accusation. "I didn't understand" is a much better answer than, "YOU created evil God...its all your fault!"

Except, if that's true, the entire bible is WRONG, and we cannot trust it.

That is correct. If calvinism is true, the entire Bible is wrong. Except they claim that is what the Bible teaches. So they sawed off the branch that they are sitting upon.

We've had this convo before, you could just ignore this post if you so choose.
No problem.

OK, I will ignore it......... (hope you are laughing...I am) Seriously, I very deeply love God and find it difficult when He is accused of planing, executing, creating, organizing, etc. moral evil.

 

[Iconoclast]

11 Natural evil is evil that occurs in the realm of nature (calamities such as floods, famine, disease, suffering, earthquakes and pestilence). Moral evil is evil or sin that occurs because of the wickedness of man against man (e.g., wars, rapes, torture, murders, hatred, deceit, theft, destruction, etc.).
• The Scriptures teach that God is both benevolent [absolutely good] and also that he ordains evil deeds. The following quotation is in accord with the testimony of Scripture and deserves to be carefully studied: God is good, yet he ordains evil deeds. We know that these truths are compatible, for Scripture teaches both and God cannot deny himself...God can foreordain evil only if he himself is good, for in Scripture “evil” is “evil” only by contrast with the goodness of God. God is truly good only if the evil in the world is foreordained by him, for only if evil is fully controlled by God can we be confident that there is a good purpose in it, and only if there is a good purpose in it can we trust the overall good purpose of God.15 • God foreordains evil; he does not merely “permit” or “allow” it. Such wording as “God permits [allows] evil” is often used by theologians who are either seeking to avoid the idea that God is the culpable author of sin, or are using human language for want of expression.16 • God, of course, is not the author of evil in the sense that he himself is culpable [blameworthy] or tainted by sin. Such would be a denial of his inherent goodness. That God is not the author of sin may be clarified by the following considerations:

 

[Iconoclast]

1. The Scriptures hold men fully responsible for their own sins, which would not and could not be true if God were the author of sin (Acts 2:23; Rom. 1:18–32; 2 Thess. 1:7–9; Jude 14–15; Rev. 20:11–13). 2. If God were to charge men with sins for which he were really responsible, then he would not and could not be just, indeed, he would be less than just— he himself would become a criminal, a sinner! Such would be absolutely unthinkable and unscriptural. Thus, the biblical reality of human culpability would necessarily preclude God from being the author of sin. 3. Although God wills evil, it must not be imagined that he wills it in the same sense and manner that he wills what is righteous, holy and good. He ordains evil to exist and controls it, overruling it to the highest good and his glory (Psa. 145:17; Rom. 11:33–36; Rev. 4:11). He does not take pleasure in evil in a positive sense. Thus, it may be right for God to ordain what is not right for man to do and therefore wrong for God to command man to do under his preceptive will. The Dutch Theologian Herman Bavinck seeks to explain this truth by an illustration: Because man is a rational, moral being, God does not treat him as if he were a stone or a log but deals with him and addresses him in accordance with his nature. Just as a father forbids his child to touch a sharp knife though he himself uses it without injury or damage, so God forbids us to sin though He himself is able to use and does use sin as a means of self–glorification.17 • God ordains sin, but he does not command it. Sin exists as part of the Divine teleological purpose, but it is not forced upon men by necessity. Men cannot make God culpable for their own sin and breach of God’s preceptive will. They must, as moral, rational, responsible beings, bear the consequences of their own transgressions. God thus controls evil, but not in the sense that he rejoices or takes pleasure in it. To say that God does not control evil is to deny his omnipotence. To say that he wills evil in the same sense as he does what is right and holy is to deny his righteousness and holiness. To say that he controls evil in such a way that men are relieved of their moral responsibility is to deny both their free moral agency and his essential nature. To say, however, that God ordains men to contradict his Law–Word through their own willful actions, and that he controls this for the ultimate good and glory of his eternal purpose, is to assert the absolute sovereignty of God over evil and yet preserve his wisdom, righteousness and holiness. Finite creatures must leave such mystery to the infinite God. Donald Macleod seeks to put the matters of the fore–ordination of sin and human freedom in simple, yet profound statements, by asserting that God has fore–ordained both sin and human freeedom: …God is not the author of sin. God has fore–ordained sin. He has fore– ordained whatsoever comes to pass, and sin has come to pass, and God’s purpose controls, limits, preserves and governs the universe even in the

 

[Dorothy Mae]

pt2;
GOD IS SOVEREIGN OVER EVIL The last view—that God is absolutely sovereign over both natural and moral evil,11 and uses evil for his own glory and the highest good—is the only view that can be consistently aligned to the teaching of Scripture. Every other view, deriving from sinful [incapacitated by the noetic effects of sin and willful rebellion against God and his truth] humanistic reasoning, and so calling God and his actions into question, seeks to point out an incoherence in the Christian system. These views either deny God and evil, or limit God and seek to bring him down to the finite level and destroy his moral self–consistency—and thus any sufficient or consistent basis for morality.12 The truth of the sovereignty of God over evil may be clarified by the following considerations and implications: • The existence of evil in a universe created and governed by a benevolent God is not incoherent if God has a morally sufficient reason for this evil to exist. This “problem” is more psychological than logical or philosophical.13 Man would rather call God and his actions into question than submit himself in complete trust (Rom. 9:11–24), even to a God who is benevolent in the context of his righteousness.
10 Some of this group hold that God is either working in a utilitarian fashion as best he can, or that he merely foresaw evil and its results, but was not able to prevent them; or that there are some situations brought about by morally free agents that even God did not foresee. While the latter two are somewhat extreme, the idea that God merely foresaw or foreknew evil would not remove culpability from God. If God foresaw what would happen and then laid his plans accordingly, then he could have prevented sins, but evidently chose not to do so. Thus, God would be ultimately responsible for sin by allowing it, yet not controlling it for the highest good and his glory. Further, if God merely foresaw evil as a certainty—and it must have been certain for God to foresee it as such in the biblical sense—then God himself could not have prevented sin. Sin would have existed and been determined by a force outside God. He would thus finitely exist within a “universe” over which he exercised no ultimate control, a “universe” controlled in the final sense by an atheistic determinism!

This is the view you have developed for yourself and seems to satisfy you.

 

[Iconoclast]

presence of this fact of sin….He does not himself sin. He does not condone sin. He does not constrain to sin. He does not induce to sin. He does not tempt to sin….Fore–ordination is not destructive of freedom; God has ordained freedom…fore–ordination is what establishes freedom…nothing can take away from the human being the liberty essential to moral responsibility, because God has fore–ordained the freedom of men at the point of moral decision–making…God fore–ordains their actions, but he fore–ordains them as free actions: as things they do by their on personal volition….I am free because God fore–ordained my freedom.18 NOTE: The above statement by Macleod must not be interpreted in the Arminian sense that “God created man with a free will and so cannot violate that will,” but in the sense that God created man as a free and responsible moral agent. God would not, yea, could not externally limit his own sovereignty in such a away as to render himself morally incapacitated or even inconsistent. He would then cease to be God. • In the great theodicy of Romans 9,19 the Apostle answers objections concerning the absolute sovereignty of God over the moral character and destiny of men. (His argument assumes three questions: Is God unfaithful to his covenant promise [v. 6– 13]? Is God unrighteous in his sovereign prerogative [v. 14–18]? Is God unjust or arbitrary in holding men accountable [v. 19–29]?). He asserts that God is, indeed, absolutely sovereign in the spiritual, moral and ethical spheres, and that no one has the right to question the Divine prerogative or purpose. • The absolute sovereignty and moral nature of God must lead to the conclusion that God is not the author of sin because he completely controls the evil of his moral creatures. God is the one great and incomprehensible “Absolute,” the ultimate source of all meaning. In the final analysis there is no true meaning apart from God. The created universe and every fact in it (being a created fact) derives its meaning from God and must be interpreted by him. Thus, evil itself must be and can only be comprehended and interpreted in the context of God as he has been pleased to reveal himself in Scripture. Thus, rather than make God the author of sin, predestination in the context of the scriptural revelation of his nature and character, preserves God from this charge and is a guarantee of his absolute moral perfection.

http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf

 

[Iconoclast]

This is the view you have developed for yourself and seems to satisfy you.

No...this is aPDF file compiled by a Pastor quoting from some of the best schlorship available. You will of course scoff at it, but when asked, you have nothing to offer as you suggest you have your own ...private ideas.
I offer this for those who want to learn.

http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No...this is aPDF file compiled by a Pastor quoting from some of the best schlorship available. You will of course scoff at it, but when asked, you have nothing to offer as you suggest you have your own ...private ideas.
I offer this for those who want to learn.

http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf

Do you believe it or not? (My mistake when I thought that you were articulating your view but need to borrow someone else's words instead.)

 

[GodsGrace]

I have posted this earlier;
5 Note the statement made by the Scofield Reference Bible: “Heb. ra, translated ‘sorrow,’ ‘wretchedness,’ ‘adversity,’ ‘afflictions,’ ‘calamities,’ but never translated sin. God created evil only in the sense that he made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin.” p. 754. [r; (ra'), however, is the common word for moral evil and, although never translated “sin,” it is translated hundreds of times as “evil,” and eighty–one times as “wicked,” “wickedly” and “wickedness,” referring to all types of sins. In this context neither peace nor evil can be used in such a restricted sense as the Scofield Reference Bible has attempted to give these parallel terms, as the Scriptures in their use of these revea

I didn't say SIN.
I used the term EVIL.
Sin is evil, but is not the definition of EVIL.
EVIL is infested in everything....man and nature.
A breeze is pleasant,
A hurricane is evil.
Romans 8:20-23
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Even nature is awaiting the redemption to be set free from its slavery to corruption.

8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.

The above is a commentary. I have to go by what the bible says.
The bible does not state that sin was imputed to man by the sin of Adam,
you're adding to scripture.
Romans 3:23
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

WHERE does it state above that sin is imputed?
NOWHERE!
You're adding to scripture.

Sin did not originate with the fall [apostasy] of man. Sin originated in the spirit [angelic] world. Lucifer [Satan, the devil] apostatized from God and took a number of angelic beings with him. He it was in the guise of the serpent who tempted Adam and Eve and through this brought about the fall of mankind. The entrance of sin into the human race came through Adam’s willful disobedience to the explicit commandment of God (Gen. 2:16–17; 3:1–7; Rom. 5:12; 3:23).8 The human race apostatized from God in Adam as their representative head.In dealing with the origin of sin, however, we must come to terms, not only with its history as revealed in Scripture, but also with its relation to an absolutely just or righteous and holy God. Holding the Scriptures to be the inspired, infallible Word of God inscripturated, we must accept their record as to the origin of sin.

Again, we know the origin of sin, as described above.
But we do not know the origin of evil.

9 This is the thinking of some professing Christians when they reduce their concept of God to the level of the devil, making them equals—a pagan, dualistic concept. Such [non–] thinking is present in such statements as, “God casts his vote, the devil casts his vote, and now it’s up to you to cast your vote,” when referring to the election of sinners to salvation. Such talk is utterly irrational. It is to hold a concept of God that is simply not scriptural, for the Word reveals that God is absolutely sovereign, even over the evil acts of men—and Scripture is the ultimate authority.

Never heard of casting votes.
Salvation comes through believing in Jesus.
John 3:16 is perfect, but you don't understand it the way I do.

Acts 16:31 explains how we become saved, but you don't understand that the way I do.

Ditto for many passages in Romans....10:17 is just one.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you believe it or not? (My mistake when I thought that you were articulating your view but need to borrow someone else's words instead.)

This is my view, that is why I posted it. The link I offered is by a person who is very gifted and smarter than you or I.
When i post a link. I know that person is much smarter than I am. You will never really refute any link posted, because you flat out cannot.
I never learned to type...so it is much easier to copy and paste things already written. I will defend anything I post.
If you desire to hear me ARTICULATE...In my own words, let me know.We can speak on the phone as I speak much much faster than my two finger typing. You and I with open bibles, but be advised, i will not let you hide saying I have my own private view, but I will not say what it is cop out. let me know if you want to speak on the phone...I have done that on other boards, sometimes met people in other states face to face.

 

[Iconoclast]

8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.

The above is a commentary. I have to go by what the bible says.
The bible does not state that sin was imputed to man by the sin of Adam,
you're adding to scripture.
Romans 3:23
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

WHERE does it state above that sin is imputed?
NOWHERE!
You're adding to scripture.

W......what you call a commentary, is the greek text. It is the bible...the funny little letters are the greek, rom3:23
pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/.
“For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…”

Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton.
“by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.
This Pastor has taught greek for over 45 years. So I am not adding to scriptureas you falsely accuse.
Instead you are rebelling against the actual scripture and offering falsehood. You have denied this truth 3 or 4 times on the various threads.
Get control of yourself. Before you attack or accuse, search it out first