Predestination

[GodsGrace]

You are not the worst, some tell out right lies.

Well, that's something, I guess.

Calvinists start with the premise that we worship, a Holy Just God, who is perfect even within The teaching known as Calvinism.
Of course we believe Calvinism, is simply bible teaching fully expounded and understood.

I believe the same. We worship a Holy and Just God who is perfect within any teaching.
But, I've asked many times, what does just mean? What is justice?

You and I have to part ways here because God in calvinist theology does not seem to me to be a just God.
I've stated why many times but instead of listening you just get upset.

When you and others make such charges.. they are rejected for that reason...If you or others could offer biblical correction we would listen, but you cannot.

It's what we believe. Why does it have to be a charge? Can't you just take what is said at face value??
And it doesn't seem like you listen because I never get an actual reply...just sarcasm particularly from some.

In fact when we turn the tables and show how what non cals suggest is actually dishonoring to God and His word...we get accused of being unloving or rude, when in fact we speak the truth in love.
W....when you tell a JW, who denies the Trinity that he has the wrong God, are you being unloving, or Truthful ? If he then says...you are rude, or look, you are violating the terms of service...is he right?

The JW are worshipping the right God...
They just don't know Him completely.
The God of calvinism does appear as a different God.
Now do you get upset or ask me why?

Nothing exists outside of God, but Isa45:7 allows for what God has ordained to come to pass by second causes...God never sins, God never makes someone sin.
Do you understand this?

I understand this. I understand about second causes.
Let me see if YOU understand this:

God predestinated everything.
Would that include second causes?
Let's say for the sake of argument that it does not.
But God sets up a situation where things are happening and someone then sins.
This is a simple explanation of second cause. Do you agree?
So is God still predestinating the situation since He predestinates everything?
So how is God NOT responsible for the second cause? It still goes back to Him...
And if you can trace it back to God - which is the only possible option - then God DID create sin and if God created sin, then He sinned and we know that God cannot sin - so how to get out of this problem?

If you think I don't understand second causes, then explain how YOU understand it.
Tell me why I'm wrong in my thinking process.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'll just do this right now....I don't have a lot of time unfortunately.



Those who are being sanctified (or are sanctified) are indeed united to Christ.


I don't believe in two different types of calling, one which would be effectual...
God calling, as predestined, those who are going to be saved by His choice.

And regenerated - I'd have to ask you WHEN is a person regenerated?
Before or after salvation?

You see Iconoclast, everything sounds just right and perfect,
except that I know what words mean in the calvinist theology -
EFFECTUAL CALLING
and
REGENERATED
do not mean the same as for other denominations.


I can agree with this, the Holy Spirit dwelling in us gives us the strength to obey God.
In the first sentence the "created in them" gives me a small problem, I'd have to look that up in the BCF or whichever one you used.
I have the WCF right here.

I as a Reformed Baptist use the 1689 London Baptist confession of faith.
The 1644 WCF is the Presbyterian COF...it is a fine confession and 1689 was based on it, except they are different on baptism, and ecclesiology.
The Philadelphia Confession of faith is also very good.
Again as each points out right up front, they do not in any way replace scripture.

I don't believe the body of sin (the sin nature) is destroyed but is weakened.

rom.6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
The reigning POWER of sin has been broken...but we are not yet glorifed so we are to mortify remaining sin.

Different denominations debate this and it is not exclusively calvinistic in nature.


Agreed.


Those that have studied calvinism can catch words others cannot.
What did I post that YOU don't agree with?

 

[GodsGrace]

I as a Reformed Baptist use the 1689 London Baptist confession of faith.
The 1644 WCF is the Presbyterian COF...it is a fine confession and 1689 was based on it, except they are different on baptism, and ecclesiology.
The Philadelphia Confession of faith is also very good.
Again as each points out right up front, they do not in any way replace scripture.


rom.6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
The reigning POWER of sin has been broken...but we are not yet glorifed so we are to mortify remaining sin.

In Romans 7:14.... Paul decries his inability to do what he wants to do.
I'd be willing that our sin nature dies when we become born again,
but someone would have to explain to me why we still sin if the sin nature is totally erradicated.
John says that we should not sin..BUT IF WE DO SIN, we have an advocate.
So why do we still sin?
Why do we still need an advocate?

But tomorrow.
Midnight here.

 

[electedbyHim]

In Romans 7:14.... Paul decries his inability to do what he wants to do.
I'd be willing that our sin nature dies when we become born again,
but someone would have to explain to me why we still sin if the sin nature is totally erradicated.
John says that we should not sin..BUT IF WE DO SIN, we have an advocate.
So why do we still sin?
Why do we still need an advocate?

But tomorrow.
Midnight here.

Paul was wrestling with his sin, as do a all Christians on a daily basis.

Those who understand, know and teach the Bible better then everyone else will be along shortly to correct me.

Grace and peace to you

 

[Iconoclast]

Well, that's something, I guess.





I believe the same. We worship a Holy and Just God who is perfect within any teaching.
But, I've asked many times, what does just mean? What is justice?

You and I have to part ways here because God in calvinist theology does not seem to me to be a just God.
I've stated why many times but instead of listening you just get upset.




It's what we believe. Why does it have to be a charge? Can't you just take what is said at face value??
And it doesn't seem like you listen because I never get an actual reply...just sarcasm particularly from some.



The JW are worshipping the right God...
They just don't know Him completely.
The God of calvinism does appear as a different God.
Now do you get upset or ask me why?


I understand this. I understand about second causes.
Let me see if YOU understand this:

I am not sure you understand what you say you do.

God predestinated everything.

No, he did not. That is not the biblical usage of predestination.
I have explained this;

Ordain - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words​

Ordain
[ 1,,G5087, tithemi ]
to put: See APPOINT, No. 3.

[ 2,,G2525, kathistemi ]
from kata, down," or "over against," and histemi, "to cause to stand, to set," is translated "to ordain" in the AV of Titus 1:5; Hebrews 5:1; Hebrews 8:3. See APPOINT, No. 2.

[ 3,,G5021, tasso ]
is translated "to ordain," in Acts 13:48; Romans 13:1. See APPOINT. NO. 5

[ 4,,G1299, diatasso ]
is translated "to ordain" in 1 Corinthians 7:17; 1 Corinthians 9:14; Galatians 3:19, the last in the sense of "administered." Cp. diatage, under DISPOSITION. See APPOINT. No. 6.

[ 5,,G3724, horizo ]
is twice used of Christ as Divinely "ordained" to be the Judge of men, Acts 10:42; Acts 17:31. See DETERMINE, No. 2.





(1) In 1 Corinthians 2:7, AV, proorizo, "to foreordain" (See RV) is translated "ordained." See DETERMINE, No. 3.

(2) In Mark 3:14, AV, poieo, "to make," is translated "ordained" (RV, "appointed").

(3) In Hebrews 9:6, AV, kataskeuazo, "to prepare" (so RV), is translated "were ... ordained. See PREPARE.

(4) In Acts 14:23, AV, cheirotoneo, "to appoint" (RV), is translated "they had ordained." See APPOINT, No. 11.

(5) In Ephesians 2:10, AV, proetoimazo, "to prepare before," is translated "hath before ordained" (RV, "afore prepared"); See PREPARE.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Predestinate - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words​

Predestinate
[ 1,,G4309, proorizo ]
See DETERMINE.

Note: This verb is to be distinguished from proginosko, to foreknow;" the latter has special reference to the persons foreknown by God; proorizo has special reference to that to which the subjects of His foreknowledge are "predestinated." See FOREKNOW, A and B.

 

[Consecrated Life]

So God already knows the day, moment & manner by which each of us will die, yet the fact that He additionally already knows whether or not we will choose Christ is some kind of a big deal !
You're kidding me , right ?

 

[Iconoclast]

So God already knows the day, moment & manner by which each of us will die

Yes...an appointed time Heb.9:27

, yet the fact that He additionally already knows whether or not we will choose Christ

Your comment presupposes the idea that men choose God apart from His direct work of giving them a new heart. God has already determined who He will save, because natural men do not choose God.
They are effectually drawn to salvation.

You're kidding me , right ?

No.....

Acts 13:48

King James Version
​

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[Consecrated Life]

So God already knows the day, moment & manner by which each of us will die, yet the fact that He additionally already knows whether or not we will choose Christ is some kind of a big deal !
You're kidding me , right ?

Yes...an appointed time Heb.9:27



Your comment presupposes the idea that men choose God apart from His direct work of giving them a new heart.

At what point does God give us "a new heart" ?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Never said it was. It's all in the ToS. Let's just leave it at that, shall we?

Adieu

 

[Iconoclast]

So God already knows the day, moment & manner by which each of us will die

Yes...an appointed time Heb.9:27

, yet the fact that He additionally already knows whether or not we will choose Christ

Your comment presupposes the idea that men choose God apart from His direct work of giving them a new heart. God has already determined who He will save, because natural men do not choose God.
They are effectually drawn to salvation.

You're kidding me , right ?

No.....

At what point does God give us "a new heart" ?

We are given life, and regeneration, simultaneously with God-given repentance and saving faith.

Acts11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


ezk36:
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[Consecrated Life]

At what point does God give us "a new heart "

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

So

So at what point does God place this new heart in a person?
What event precipitates this heart transplant ?
It's okay if you don't have any idea, I'm just curious.

 

[Robert Pate]

At what point does God give us "a new heart" ?

We receive a new heart when we are born again by the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.

 

[Robert Pate]

Yes...an appointed time Heb.9:27



Your comment presupposes the idea that men choose God apart from His direct work of giving them a new heart. God has already determined who He will save, because natural men do not choose God.
They are effectually drawn to salvation.

No.....

We are given life, and regeneration, simultaneously with God-given repentance and saving faith.

Acts11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


ezk36:
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The Bible plainly teaches that people come to Christ by hearing and believing the Gospel. On the day of Pentecost 8,000 Jews heard and believed Peter's Gospel and were born again, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (The Gospel) Romans 10:17.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul was wrestling with his sin, as do a all Christians on a daily basis.

Those who understand, know and teach the Bible better then everyone else will be along shortly to correct me.

Grace and peace to you

Don't YOU know and understand the bible?

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not sure you understand what you say you do.

No, he did not. That is not the biblical usage of predestination.
I have explained this;

Ordain - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words​

Ordain
[ 1,,G5087, tithemi ]
to put: See APPOINT, No. 3.

[ 2,,G2525, kathistemi ]
from kata, down," or "over against," and histemi, "to cause to stand, to set," is translated "to ordain" in the AV of Titus 1:5; Hebrews 5:1; Hebrews 8:3. See APPOINT, No. 2.

[ 3,,G5021, tasso ]
is translated "to ordain," in Acts 13:48; Romans 13:1. See APPOINT. NO. 5

[ 4,,G1299, diatasso ]
is translated "to ordain" in 1 Corinthians 7:17; 1 Corinthians 9:14; Galatians 3:19, the last in the sense of "administered." Cp. diatage, under DISPOSITION. See APPOINT. No. 6.

[ 5,,G3724, horizo ]
is twice used of Christ as Divinely "ordained" to be the Judge of men, Acts 10:42; Acts 17:31. See DETERMINE, No. 2.


(1) In 1 Corinthians 2:7, AV, proorizo, "to foreordain" (See RV) is translated "ordained." See DETERMINE, No. 3.

(2) In Mark 3:14, AV, poieo, "to make," is translated "ordained" (RV, "appointed").

(3) In Hebrews 9:6, AV, kataskeuazo, "to prepare" (so RV), is translated "were ... ordained. See PREPARE.

(4) In Acts 14:23, AV, cheirotoneo, "to appoint" (RV), is translated "they had ordained." See APPOINT, No. 11.

(5) In Ephesians 2:10, AV, proetoimazo, "to prepare before," is translated "hath before ordained" (RV, "afore prepared"); See PREPARE.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Predestinate - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words​

Predestinate
[ 1,,G4309, proorizo ]
See DETERMINE.

Note: This verb is to be distinguished from proginosko, to foreknow;" the latter has special reference to the persons foreknown by God; proorizo has special reference to that to which the subjects of His foreknowledge are "predestinated." See FOREKNOW, A and B.

You're going to give me some greek lessons?
Don't you trust the persons that translated the bible?

And why would this greek lesson mean anything to me?
Are you trying to prove that God did not predestinate everything?

The following is from the
BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH
CHAPTER 3
PARAGRAPH 1

1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; 1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; 2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; 3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.

It's interesting to note, as I've stated many times, that even though the reformed teach that God created EVERYTHING,
He is, somehow, not responsible for being the author of sin...which leaves a person to wonder WHO OR WHAT created sin since it states that God did not.
Very illogical IMO.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not sure you understand what you say you do.

No, he did not. That is not the biblical usage of predestination.
I have explained this;

Ordain - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words​

Ordain
[ 1,,G5087, tithemi ]
to put: See APPOINT, No. 3.

[ 2,,G2525, kathistemi ]
from kata, down," or "over against," and histemi, "to cause to stand, to set," is translated "to ordain" in the AV of Titus 1:5; Hebrews 5:1; Hebrews 8:3. See APPOINT, No. 2.

[ 3,,G5021, tasso ]
is translated "to ordain," in Acts 13:48; Romans 13:1. See APPOINT. NO. 5

[ 4,,G1299, diatasso ]
is translated "to ordain" in 1 Corinthians 7:17; 1 Corinthians 9:14; Galatians 3:19, the last in the sense of "administered." Cp. diatage, under DISPOSITION. See APPOINT. No. 6.

[ 5,,G3724, horizo ]
is twice used of Christ as Divinely "ordained" to be the Judge of men, Acts 10:42; Acts 17:31. See DETERMINE, No. 2.





(1) In 1 Corinthians 2:7, AV, proorizo, "to foreordain" (See RV) is translated "ordained." See DETERMINE, No. 3.

(2) In Mark 3:14, AV, poieo, "to make," is translated "ordained" (RV, "appointed").

(3) In Hebrews 9:6, AV, kataskeuazo, "to prepare" (so RV), is translated "were ... ordained. See PREPARE.

(4) In Acts 14:23, AV, cheirotoneo, "to appoint" (RV), is translated "they had ordained." See APPOINT, No. 11.

(5) In Ephesians 2:10, AV, proetoimazo, "to prepare before," is translated "hath before ordained" (RV, "afore prepared"); See PREPARE.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

Predestinate - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words​

Predestinate
[ 1,,G4309, proorizo ]
See DETERMINE.

Note: This verb is to be distinguished from proginosko, to foreknow;" the latter has special reference to the persons foreknown by God; proorizo has special reference to that to which the subjects of His foreknowledge are "predestinated." See FOREKNOW, A and B.

So, I don't understand ....
I'M the one that does not believe in predestination,,,
and here we are, YOU are trying to tell me that ordain and decree do not mean predestination.

So you go by the Baptist Confession,
but you do NOT believe in predestination??

The BCF teaches predestination.

No wonder there's so much confusion here.

 

[Iconoclast]

So at what point does God place this new heart in a person?
What event precipitates this heart transplant ?
It's okay if you don't have any idea, I'm just curious.

Hello CL,
God has not left Himself without witness in this fallen world.
All men are given the light of nature, and the light of conscience
Rom1:16-2:16
The Holy Spirit is at work, worldwide working as he will JN 16:7-11

Now God has ordained to save a multitude of sinners IN CHRIST.
The Spirit of God effectually draws these men to see their sin and guilt, most often through the word preached. God has ordained the ways and the means that this takes place.
Rom10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Not one of the Children that The Father has given to the Son will perish,Heb2:11-16
but all will come to repentance and faith.
2Pet.3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Does this help?

 

[Iconoclast]

You're going to give me some greek lessons?
Don't you trust the persons that translated the bible?

wondering
I know people who have taught the greek for many years and have learned how sometimes it clarifies some of the finer points. We can use the English just fine.

And why would this greek lesson mean anything to me?
Are you trying to prove that God did not predestinate everything?

Lets see;

The following is from the
BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH
CHAPTER 3
PARAGRAPH 1

1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

Yes He has....W...there is nothing that exits or happens outside of God
Abraham Kuyper had taught from scripture there is not one "random" molecule exists or moves...consider this; God uses evil that men do for His purposes...but men do the evil.
Isa.45;7-7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Amos3:6-

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

and of course the most evil acts of all time;Acts2
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God,
ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

The Cross ordained by God.....they with wicked hands

The cross was ordained ,yet the sinners sinned.
It does not say....The sinners did NOT WANT TO COMMIT MURDER, BUT GOD PREDESTINED ALL THINGS, SO THEY WERE FORCED TO DO IT, UNWILLINGLY.by God
Nope....not everything is "predestined" by God...ordained/ predestined...there is a difference of how the bible uses them.If there is a slight difference, I will use that difference to gain clarity.
i will not go to carnal terms from unsaved men and their philosophy to get a wrong understanding.

Think of the book of Job....it looked one way to his three false comforters, but in reality Satan and demonic forces were at work, yet under the control of God....[but not his life]

1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;

Start here always..not possible for God to sin, directly, or force someone to sin.Jesus knew Judas was about to betray Him...I do not read where Judas was reluctant and said no I do not will to do evil,but Jesus forced him to go because He predestined everything. Yet it was ordained to take place, so providentially it did.

2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;

God uses the evil of fallen men and angels to bring about His eternal purpose.

3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.

Like with Joseph; Gen.50
20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
The godly men who put this confession of faith together went through the whole bible sifting through to offer such a solid outline of bible content.

It's interesting to note, as I've stated many times, that even though the reformed teach that God created EVERYTHING,
He is, somehow, not responsible for being the author of sin...which leaves a person to wonder WHO OR WHAT created sin since it states that God did not.
Very illogical IMO.

Hopefully this helps arrange those puzzle pieces a bit more.

 

[Iconoclast]

So, I don't understand ....
I'M the one that does not believe in predestination,,,
and here we are, YOU are trying to tell me that ordain and decree do not mean predestination.

So you go by the Baptist Confession,
but you do NOT believe in predestination??

The BCF teaches predestination.

No wonder there's so much confusion here.

wondering I believe only what the bible teaches is predestined.
I do not take it upon myself to mix different words which have differences, into a word hash mixture that confuses the issue
predestined,
ordained,
determinate counsel,
foreknowledge
Decreed
All used differently

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering I believe only what the bible teaches is predestined.
I do not take it upon myself to mix different words which have differences, into a word hash mixture that confuses the issue
predestined,
ordained,
determinate counsel,
foreknowledge
Decreed
All used differently

It's dinner time over here.
We need to speak about the BIG differences,
nuances are not needed at this point and I don't think the greek is going to help. It does at times.

PREDESTINED
ORDAINED
DETERMINATE COUNSEL
DECREED
All mean exactly the same.

FOREKNOWLEDGE is different.

Later.

Could you PLEASE clarify whether or not you believe that God PREDESTINED everything...
Thanks. (you have another post to me -- too late now).