Predestination

[gralanlinae]

Calvinism, Hyper-Calvinism & Arminianism ..by W.R. Downing, used by permission
Arminians teach that it is man, not God, who chooses in the matter of salvation. They maintain, in effect, that God elects those who elect Him. God ratifies the choices of men; His election is conditional. Calvinism, on the other hand, claims that election is unconditional. It is based on nothing “foreseen” in man. It is one hundred percent the work of God. The doctrine of election is part of the broader doctrine of God’s absolute sovereignty which was discussed in chapter two. There are several erroneous concepts concerning what Calvinism teaches regarding election. First, election is not salvation. Election precedes salvation. The Father has elected certain persons unto salvation in Christ from all eternity. Paul writes: “He [God] chose us [the elect saints] in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him” (Ephesians 1:4). Election is an action that takes place supra-history, whereas salvation takes place in history. The latter occurs at the time an individual confesses Christ as Savior and Lord (Romans 10:9-10).



Second, election does not mean “to ratify” as in Arminianism; rather, it means “to select or choose out of”. Thus, when we speak of election in relation to God and salvation, we speak of that which God is doing, not man. God chooses His “elect.” All men are worthy of eternal death, but God elected a certain number unto salvation before the foundation of the world. Third, as alluded to above, God’s election is not due to His foresight or foreknowledge of whether or not certain men will choose Him. The Westminster Confession of Faith states: “Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.” 9 As we have already seen, the whole human race is guilty in Adam’s sin. All men are born dead in sin and incapable of doing anything that pleases God (Ephesians 2:1; Romans 8:7-8; Psalm 51:5; 58:3). They do not have the ability to choose God. He chooses them. Herein is a serious difference between Calvinism and Arminianism. According to the latter, God, in His divine foresight, looked down through the corridors of time and saw all of those who would choose salvation in Jesus Christ. Having this divine foreknowledge, He then ratified certain men’s choices of Him. Romans 8:29 is the classic passage which addresses the issue of God’s foreknowledge: “For those whom God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.” Is the Arminian understanding of foreknowledge in this verse that of Paul’s? Is the apostle merely speaking of divine prescience? Not at all! Verse twenty-eight, which precedes the verse under discussion, gives us the answer: “We know that in all things, God works for the good of those that love Him; those who have been called according to His purpose.” The whole order of salvation, as found in Romans 8:28-30, turns on the word “purpose” in verse twenty-eight. And it is God’s purpose, not man’s. This is of utmost significance.

God has all glory even before Creation of anything, including angels. It is all about God, and in God we find our purpose of existing - to know God and enjoy God forever. Adam and Eve elevated their position by choosing to do other than God's Will. But that wasn't their right, and in sinning we were cursed and creation in this Cosmos as well.

I've explained predestination to some by saying that God the Father did not go out sowing his wild seed, hoping for children to be his family. That is humanly speaking, not God's character and he doesn't even permit that behavior in us.

Sometime we have to put things bluntly, for folks even like me, can get convinced of ideas that are not correct but we think are divinely revealed. The Lord have mercy.

If we had to dot all the "i"s and cross all the "t"s in order to be, grow, mature, and function no one could get there. That's why we need to experience the transforming of our mind, as we submit to being living sacrifices to God. That is what the Bible says is our true worship of God. Not attending services or gatherings, although those are needful.

It is all God's work, to, for, in, through Christ our Master, and we are members of His Body. If we function in Christ, we are being who we were created in the New Creation to be. Woo Hoo! And grooving together we will, through all Eternity. Whew. Mind blowing. Thanks be to God.

I'm really glad to be reading this post and thread.

 

[gralanlinae]

pt2.
Divine Election or Human Decision?
What, then, does the word “foreknow” mean? It is practically synonymous with “forelove.” Notice that in Genesis 4:1, we read that: “Adam knew his wife Eve.” Here the word “know” is used of the intimate relationship between man and wife. The same usage is found in Luke 1:34, where Mary relates to the angel Gabriel that she has never (literally in the Greek text) “known” a man; that is, she has never had sexual intercourse with anyone. In Matthew 7:23, speaking of some unbelievers, Jesus says: “And then I will declare unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of iniquity.” Does the Lord mean that He never knew who these men were? As the sovereign ruler of the universe, the one who gives life and breath to all mankind, does Jesus Christ not know who these people are? Is this possible? Of course not! What He means is that He never loved them with a saving love. Know, as it is used in this sense, is that intimate relationship which exists between God and His elect, based solely on His electing grace.

Regarding the biblical usage of “foreknowledge” in Romans 8:29, John Murray writes: “It means ‘whom He set His regard upon’ or ‘whom He knew from eternity with distinguishing affection and delight’ and is virtually equivalent to ‘whom He foreloved.’” 10 James Boice observes that in Scripture, “The word foreknowledge itself is never used in reference to events or actions—that is, as advance knowledge of what one would or might do—but always of persons, whose lives are affected by that foreknowledge rather than the other way around.” 11 To be sure, election is according to foreknowledge, but not foresight. Obviously, any Christian will affirm that God, as the sovereign Master of the rse, knows all things and thus foreknows all things. But God knows all things because He is the Creator of all, and everything exists according to His sovereign decretive will. He knows and foreknows all things from all eternity simply because He is God and has foreordained or decreed all that will ever come to pass. Logically, to insist that God merely knows Calvinism, Hyper-Calvinism & Arminianism by looking into the future is to insist that God is not sovereign. Such, of course, is not the God of the Bible. What then is election? Boettner writes: God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation, before the foundation of the world, rested solely on His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause, of God’s choice. Election, therefore, was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus, God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
There are a number of Scripture passages which support the Calvinist doctrine of divine election. Ephesians 1:4, which is one of the strongest verses in the Bible on this subject, has already been quoted above. In this verse we read that it is God who does the choosing from all eternity. Likewise, in 2 Thessalonians 2:13- 14, Paul states: “But we should always give thanks to God for you,
brothers, beloved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Again, it is God who has chosen the Thessalonians, not vice versa. In Acts 13 we read of Paul’s missionary activities in Pisidian Antioch (vv. 13-52). When the Gentiles heard his message of salvation in Jesus Christ alone they rejoiced: “they were glad and honored the Word of the Lord; and all of those appointed unto eternal life believed” (v. 48). Notice that those who believed were those who had been chosen by God to believe

Even having been raised in Reformed Churches, verse 48 gave me peace in knowing this doctrine is sure, and it is sound theology. 26 years ago I was teaching my new-to-the-fold wife about this. It is good to have solid reasons for one's convictions. Even then though we wrestle with things, trying to hedge about. I'm glad we can learn. God is good in giving us room for that. Woo Hoo!

 

[gralanlinae]

wondering, I have no hope nor desire to change his/her mind. I only want to offer the solidly rational and biblical opposition to that theology for those considering it. I have found that, without exception, no one who embraces that theology understands God. To be fair not many do in any case, but those who like to comfort themselves with God being so cruel as to predestine eternal destinations haven’t the slightest chance. This is easy to prove, btw. Just ask them to explain why God does this. They cannot give an answer. Thus, they don’t understand Him.

I do not mean to interrupt, so I hope that is not what I'm doing. I would pose a question: God reveals to us that All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All are dead due to sin (no debate, either Original Sin or personal sin, all have sinned). Going to Hell is not a choice for sinners, it is a fact. That's why we must be reborn in Christ.

So, God saves those whom God chooses out of all those going to Hell, or does God not save those whom God has chosen?

I'll start coming by more often, to be a part of the conversation. Thanks.

 

[gralanlinae]

Predestination was held as doctrine in the early church (meaning the first 5 centuries. Augustine first held that God chose those who chose him in the future. That is a popular version. Later on Augustine was convinced and taught that God chose those whom he decided, not relying on the decision of the sinner. Calvin and other Reformers wanted to return the Church back to the standards of the faith in the 1st four hundred years (recall that there was no zero century.)
There has been much learning and discovery, including the Holy Spirit leading The Church into maturity. We are The Church, if we belong to God's Kingdom as The Bride of Christ.
Thanks for the series here.

While we do learn more, there is no new revelation going on; no new standard to God's word and will.
Some trouble we have in discussing things is that some words have been imbued with meaning, on one or both sides, that changes the plain meaning of words. This happens in daily life, and is the basis for some humor.
Wesley's doctrine has been called Arminianism, altho it isn't what Arminius taught; who held in the 17th century that this issue is not one that should divide Christians.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined

Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.

Well thought out. All of it extremely well written.

Premise 1: Before the foundation of the earth (before creation) only God existed
Premise 2: From nothing, nothing comes (ex nihilo nihil fit)
Premise 3: God knows all things (Example: future, past of every atom throughout time)
Conclusion: As God was the only one that existed before He created time and therefore there was outside source of information ... His knowledge must come from Himself; from His essence which determines ALL THINGS. Our observations are the playing out of His Decree.

 

[hawkman]

God has all glory even before Creation of anything, including angels. It is all about God, and in God we find our purpose of existing - to know God and enjoy God forever. Adam and Eve elevated their position by choosing to do other than God's Will. But that wasn't their right, and in sinning we were cursed and creation in this Cosmos as well.

I am going to look in Genesis Chapter 3 and see where the curses were placed .

First up we have the serpent .
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Yes the serpent is cursed by God .

Next up we have Eve .
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
I do not see God place a curse on the woman .

Lastly we have Adam and the ground .

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

We see the ground is cursed but even that is lifted after the flood .

I do not see God place a curse on Adam .

gralanlinae who was cursed ?

 

[Iconoclast]

For the predestined to Hell before the foundation of the world it is a hideous, unjust doctrine. Every place Jesus tells men to choose proves it is not a biblical doctrine. It reminds me of Hinduism where the rich savor the comforts of their wealth relieving themselves of any twinge of guilt when they see skinny beggars on the street that it was fated to be so.

After the White Throne Judgment even those in hell will know why they are there and that they are rightly and justly there, but they will still not repent.
Do you claim that a Holy God punishing sin is hideous???

 

[jasonc]

While we do learn more, there is no new revelation going on; no new standard to God's word and will.
Some trouble we have in discussing things is that some words have been imbued with meaning, on one or both sides, that changes the plain meaning of words. This happens in daily life, and is the basis for some humor.
Wesley's doctrine has been called Arminianism, altho it isn't what Arminius taught; who held in the 17th century that this issue is not one that should divide Christians.

Wesleyan theology and his version is the most common

 

[Iconoclast]

God has all glory even before Creation of anything, including angels. It is all about God, and in God we find our purpose of existing - to know God and enjoy God forever. Adam and Eve elevated their position by choosing to do other than God's Will. But that wasn't their right, and in sinning we were cursed and creation in this Cosmos as well.

I've explained predestination to some by saying that God the Father did not go out sowing his wild seed, hoping for children to be his family. That is humanly speaking, not God's character and he doesn't even permit that behavior in us.

Sometime we have to put things bluntly, for folks even like me, can get convinced of ideas that are not correct but we think are divinely revealed. The Lord have mercy.

If we had to dot all the "i"s and cross all the "t"s in order to be, grow, mature, and function no one could get there. That's why we need to experience the transforming of our mind, as we submit to being living sacrifices to God. That is what the Bible says is our true worship of God. Not attending services or gatherings, although those are needful.

It is all God's work, to, for, in, through Christ our Master, and we are members of His Body. If we function in Christ, we are being who we were created in the New Creation to be. Woo Hoo! And grooving together we will, through all Eternity. Whew. Mind blowing. Thanks be to God.

I'm really glad to be reading this post and thread.

We are meant to understand how great God is. Like in isa.55;
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

We can be thankful that He has made Himself known to us. We need to drink in scripture to be able to live right before those outside the Kingdom.
WE can then communicate the words of life to them

 

[GodsGrace]

Predestination was held as doctrine in the early church (meaning the first 5 centuries. Augustine first held that God chose those who chose him in the future. That is a popular version. Later on Augustine was convinced and taught that God chose those whom he decided, not relying on the decision of the sinner. Calvin and other Reformers wanted to return the Church back to the standards of the faith in the 1st four hundred years (recall that there was no zero century.)
There has been much learning and discovery, including the Holy Spirit leading The Church into maturity. We are The Church, if we belong to God's Kingdom as The Bride of Christ.
Thanks for the series here.

Welcome g.

A couple of comments:
1. The early church Did Not believe in predestination.
If you believe it did, please post some early Fathers that agree with you and do not use agnostics

2. Does the modern day church believe in predestination in your opinion?

 

[Iconoclast]

The only early church is the Apostolic one.The apostles believed and taught both election and predestination.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I do not mean to interrupt, so I hope that is not what I'm doing. I would pose a question: God reveals to us that All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All are dead due to sin (no debate, either Original Sin or personal sin, all have sinned).

Well what exactly “dead”means is debatable. Certainly those around us aren’t dead. And it’s likely there are still those around to whom Jesus would again say, “you’re not far from the Kingdom of God.” Was the centurion whose faith Jesus admired dead? Were the disciples before Pentecost dead? Saying “all are dead” is religious language that is actually pretty vague.

Going to Hell is not a choice for sinners, it is a fact. That's why we must be reborn in Christ.

Ok, although few claim they no longer sin.

So, God saves those whom God chooses out of all those going to Hell, or does God not save those whom God has chosen?

No, God said, “whosoever will” and “God so loved the (whole) world.” He actually didn’t come to save man from hell but from doing wrong (sin.)

I'll start coming by more often, to be a part of the conversation. Thanks.

You’re welcome to be here.

 

[Iconoclast]

God said everyone believing. in vs.15 and vs16