-
-
-
-
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
-
-
-
-
Preterism & Biblical Prophecy
- Thread starter Lloyd
- Start date
L
Lehigh3
Guest
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
by T.O.T,
It is NOT the world as you assume (the New Jerusalem) it is the "kingdom of God." And He dwells within "us" through His Spirit.
Rev.22:14-15 NKJV,
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Do you see that the New Jerusalem is the spiritual Kingdom of God universal on earth in the Scripture with that?
And the "new Creation" is anyone who is in Christ (morally & ethically) He is a new creation.
2Cor.5:17 NKJV,
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Gal.6:14-15 NKJV,
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
How it that some can read it, but not believe it?
by T.O.T,
Actually, it we ARE in the "place" where "righteousness dwells"
It is NOT the world as you assume (the New Jerusalem) it is the "kingdom of God." And He dwells within "us" through His Spirit.
Rev.22:14-15 NKJV,
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Do you see that the New Jerusalem is the spiritual Kingdom of God universal on earth in the Scripture with that?
And the "new Creation" is anyone who is in Christ (morally & ethically) He is a new creation.
2Cor.5:17 NKJV,
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Gal.6:14-15 NKJV,
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
How it that some can read it, but not believe it?
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
- Dec 10, 2010
- 1,369
- 19
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
Jesus coming had nothing to do with whether people would continue to live and die. Whether or not people still die is of no consequence as it pertains to whether Jesus came or not for his coming was intended to be a coming of judgment and to collect and reward his elect (no one else) with life, immortality, and a place of authority in his kingdom.
Jesus did just what he said he'd do and guess what; the world has kept spinning! Here's the difference in the world now as compared to the pre-Jesus times: Jesus is now on the throne and has conquered death so that one day WE ALL will be raised to life. Jesus made the hope of the patriarchs like Job a reality and this hope of being resurrected is for ALL MEN OF ALL TIMES!
So, expect death to continue all the way up until the "LAST DAY" when the LORD makes all things new and throws death and the grave into the lake that burns with fire and brimestone.
Jesus coming had nothing to do with whether people would continue to live and die. Whether or not people still die is of no consequence as it pertains to whether Jesus came or not for his coming was intended to be a coming of judgment and to collect and reward his elect (no one else) with life, immortality, and a place of authority in his kingdom.
Jesus did just what he said he'd do and guess what; the world has kept spinning! Here's the difference in the world now as compared to the pre-Jesus times: Jesus is now on the throne and has conquered death so that one day WE ALL will be raised to life. Jesus made the hope of the patriarchs like Job a reality and this hope of being resurrected is for ALL MEN OF ALL TIMES!
So, expect death to continue all the way up until the "LAST DAY" when the LORD makes all things new and throws death and the grave into the lake that burns with fire and brimestone.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
- Dec 10, 2010
- 1,369
- 19
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
Let's talk turkey!!!!!!
You say that we are in the "place" where righteousness dwells and if I understand you properly, that "place" you speak of is the Kingdom of heaven. I will agree that within the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven, righteousness does indeed dwell, BUT where we will strongly disagree is on the issue of exactly what is currently a part of the Kingdom. I contend that the Earth and its inhabitants are NOT currently under the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven where Jesus is seated on the throne. That means that no one today individual and definately not religious institution is a "kingdom citizen" yet.
We need to define or let scripture define what it is the Kingdom of God actually is supposed to be and not fall into the trap of assuming or letting religion assume for us. It's been said that the church, christians, and the New Jerusalem itself are not only sunonomous, but also what the kingdom is. Looking to scripture we find that that is simply not the case. The Reign or Kingdom of heaven is bigger, yes FAR bigger that the saints and New Jerusalem. The saints/New Jerusalem has a place of honor within the Kingdom for sure, but do not represent the end all and be all of Jesus' kingdom.
Now we must also address the issue of WHO exactly is "in Christ" and how one is able to get "in Christ."
Let's talk turkey!!!!!!
You say that we are in the "place" where righteousness dwells and if I understand you properly, that "place" you speak of is the Kingdom of heaven. I will agree that within the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven, righteousness does indeed dwell, BUT where we will strongly disagree is on the issue of exactly what is currently a part of the Kingdom. I contend that the Earth and its inhabitants are NOT currently under the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven where Jesus is seated on the throne. That means that no one today individual and definately not religious institution is a "kingdom citizen" yet.
We need to define or let scripture define what it is the Kingdom of God actually is supposed to be and not fall into the trap of assuming or letting religion assume for us. It's been said that the church, christians, and the New Jerusalem itself are not only sunonomous, but also what the kingdom is. Looking to scripture we find that that is simply not the case. The Reign or Kingdom of heaven is bigger, yes FAR bigger that the saints and New Jerusalem. The saints/New Jerusalem has a place of honor within the Kingdom for sure, but do not represent the end all and be all of Jesus' kingdom.
Now we must also address the issue of WHO exactly is "in Christ" and how one is able to get "in Christ."
L
Lehigh3
Guest
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
The "earth" as you assume is not the same as "the world" Biblically.
There IS of course a distinction between the new heavens & the new earth. Neither one applies to "the world" - as in all the earth's inhabitants.
Scripture does not distinguish between the saints who are in heaven & the saints who are on earth. The "new heavens & earth" have to do with the new covenant. Never had any reference (even the old covenant) to "the world" we live in.
The New Jerusalem is the kingdom of God on earth. If this were the perfect end of a "heaven on earth" why would the nations need "healing?" And the kings of the earth bringing their glory & honor to it can only be to the church, whose gates are never shut.
There is a 3rd heaven after our physical death that we do not know the details of- only that it was promised to us by Jesus & the apostles.
You cannot deny the New Jerusalem being Zion in its triumphant state on earth. (prophetically of course)
And you cannot deny what Jesus said about the "kingdom of heaven being near"
Was that meant to mean that within that generation, the dead would arise from Hades? And did He proceed to describe the kingdom of heaven as in the parables?
When using the parables, He described what the kingdom of heaven was like. And to the saints He said that they should understand the mystery of the kingdom of heaven.
The prayer is "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"
So, I do not see any distinction between having the keys to the kingdom & knowing the way- & the kingdom of God's after we leave the earth.
But "we" are all kingdom citizens. Paul said our citizenship is in heaven. Meaning, we may be in the world (on this earth) but we are not (morally & spiritually) of this world- or even this earth.
But there is a heavenly counterpart. Daniel certainly (& Abraham, etc) couldn't be raised to their "inheritance" to a place on earth. So where God's throne is is the literal heaven (probably 3rd heaven- that we cannot really know of this side of life)
The "earth" as you assume is not the same as "the world" Biblically.
There IS of course a distinction between the new heavens & the new earth. Neither one applies to "the world" - as in all the earth's inhabitants.
Scripture does not distinguish between the saints who are in heaven & the saints who are on earth. The "new heavens & earth" have to do with the new covenant. Never had any reference (even the old covenant) to "the world" we live in.
The New Jerusalem is the kingdom of God on earth. If this were the perfect end of a "heaven on earth" why would the nations need "healing?" And the kings of the earth bringing their glory & honor to it can only be to the church, whose gates are never shut.
There is a 3rd heaven after our physical death that we do not know the details of- only that it was promised to us by Jesus & the apostles.
You cannot deny the New Jerusalem being Zion in its triumphant state on earth. (prophetically of course)
And you cannot deny what Jesus said about the "kingdom of heaven being near"
Was that meant to mean that within that generation, the dead would arise from Hades? And did He proceed to describe the kingdom of heaven as in the parables?
When using the parables, He described what the kingdom of heaven was like. And to the saints He said that they should understand the mystery of the kingdom of heaven.
The prayer is "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"
So, I do not see any distinction between having the keys to the kingdom & knowing the way- & the kingdom of God's after we leave the earth.
But "we" are all kingdom citizens. Paul said our citizenship is in heaven. Meaning, we may be in the world (on this earth) but we are not (morally & spiritually) of this world- or even this earth.
But there is a heavenly counterpart. Daniel certainly (& Abraham, etc) couldn't be raised to their "inheritance" to a place on earth. So where God's throne is is the literal heaven (probably 3rd heaven- that we cannot really know of this side of life)
E
Elijah674
Guest
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
Just one observation for now, if Christ is here in person now, and these ones are His witness of that, there is NO WAY for me at least, to be sold on that.
Take care of Matt. 24:22 [ON]!
And this stuff from satan is given way to much print folks!
Gen. 4:7
Ones DIET is supposed to be that of Matt. 4:4
--Elijah
Just one observation for now, if Christ is here in person now, and these ones are His witness of that, there is NO WAY for me at least, to be sold on that.
Take care of Matt. 24:22 [ON]!
And this stuff from satan is given way to much print folks!
Gen. 4:7 Ones DIET is supposed to be that of Matt. 4:4
--Elijah
Stormcrow
Member
- Apr 1, 2011
- 3,005
- 15
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
(Can't wait for the "parsers" and Biblical "cherry-pickers" to start having their way with this one!)
:angry
Yep! Sure looks like words right out of the mouth of Satan to me!
(Can't wait for the "parsers" and Biblical "cherry-pickers" to start having their way with this one!)
:angry
Last edited by a moderator:
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
- Dec 10, 2010
- 1,369
- 19
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
I do not deny what Jesus and his student proclaimed and believed some 1900 plus years ago about the Kingdom being near. It was near and its reign began short after Jesus was resurrected. Jesus came back for his own and collected them unto himself where THEY have been reigning with him since.
The 3rd Heaven may in fact be the celestial realm where Jesus went and later to his saints to. It may be the place where the heavenly messengers (angels) dwell in the presence of Almighty God, BUT nowhere is it said to be the destination of the christian's departed soul after "physical death." Why the need to redefine what death is and complicate things? Death is simply and it is the ceasation of life. When one ceases to live, one is dead, that is a fairly simply concept. Death again is ceasation of life, not separation.
The Bible hope is not life in Heaven, instead it is age lasting life under the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven where tears have been wiped away, sorrow has ended, and death is no more.
I do not deny what Jesus and his student proclaimed and believed some 1900 plus years ago about the Kingdom being near. It was near and its reign began short after Jesus was resurrected. Jesus came back for his own and collected them unto himself where THEY have been reigning with him since.
The 3rd Heaven may in fact be the celestial realm where Jesus went and later to his saints to. It may be the place where the heavenly messengers (angels) dwell in the presence of Almighty God, BUT nowhere is it said to be the destination of the christian's departed soul after "physical death." Why the need to redefine what death is and complicate things? Death is simply and it is the ceasation of life. When one ceases to live, one is dead, that is a fairly simply concept. Death again is ceasation of life, not separation.
The Bible hope is not life in Heaven, instead it is age lasting life under the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven where tears have been wiped away, sorrow has ended, and death is no more.
Stormcrow
Member
- Apr 1, 2011
- 3,005
- 15
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
{11} Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands— {12} remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Ephesians 2:11-12 (NASB)
Thus Paul gives us the very definition of spiritual death: separation from God.
He also wrote this:
{6} Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 2 Corinthians 5:6 (NASB)
Paul here making a very clear distinction between the spirit and the flesh and that for the spirit to be absent (separated) from the body was to be in Christ's presence. That happens when we die if we are part of His body.
{11} Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands— {12} remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Ephesians 2:11-12 (NASB)
Thus Paul gives us the very definition of spiritual death: separation from God.
He also wrote this:
{6} Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 2 Corinthians 5:6 (NASB)
Paul here making a very clear distinction between the spirit and the flesh and that for the spirit to be absent (separated) from the body was to be in Christ's presence. That happens when we die if we are part of His body.
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
Really off the wall pseudo christian doctrines such as preterism can usually be traced back to the lack of a real conversion experience with God,their religion is based on joining a particular group that they are convinced is head and shoulders above the crowd, and because they have discovered and joined this group,therefore this demonstrates that they are head and shoulders above the crowd...in other words satan has offered them an ego trip if they would join up and they joined up. Unless something happens to knock them off their high horse they will usually ride the horse right into destruction. God cannot convince them of anything because they are in a prideful position and God resists the proud.
Really off the wall pseudo christian doctrines such as preterism can usually be traced back to the lack of a real conversion experience with God,their religion is based on joining a particular group that they are convinced is head and shoulders above the crowd, and because they have discovered and joined this group,therefore this demonstrates that they are head and shoulders above the crowd...in other words satan has offered them an ego trip if they would join up and they joined up. Unless something happens to knock them off their high horse they will usually ride the horse right into destruction. God cannot convince them of anything because they are in a prideful position and God resists the proud.
L
Lehigh3
Guest
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
by T.O.T,
Second, "the kingdom age or gospel age" which was "the age to come" we have NOW, we become like the angels already- we don't "die" any more. Our bodies go to the dust - but our soul/spirit goes directly to God in heaven. Death & Hades is no more.
Your "Bible hope" may be different then from the hope of eternal life- which may not mean a whole lot now- but if we only have faith in Christ in this life, we are to be pitied more than any, as Paul said. (1 Cor.15:19) :shocked!
And yes, the 3rd heaven is where God resides- which were the waters ABOVE the heavens (the firmament) - See Gen.1:7. :infinity
by T.O.T,
There's a lot wrong with that statement. First, "the no more tears" in Rev.21 pertained to Israel & the sorrows they begot attending the end of the age (ie:the great tribulation)
Second, "the kingdom age or gospel age" which was "the age to come" we have NOW, we become like the angels already- we don't "die" any more. Our bodies go to the dust - but our soul/spirit goes directly to God in heaven. Death & Hades is no more.
Your "Bible hope" may be different then from the hope of eternal life- which may not mean a whole lot now- but if we only have faith in Christ in this life, we are to be pitied more than any, as Paul said. (1 Cor.15:19) :shocked!
And yes, the 3rd heaven is where God resides- which were the waters ABOVE the heavens (the firmament) - See Gen.1:7. :infinity
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
- Dec 10, 2010
- 1,369
- 19
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
I am so tempted to play "cut and paste", but I refuse to be that lazy considering who it is I am responding to is someone I see doing a bang up job of trying to relay scriptural truth. Much respect! Now before I go on to the disagreement may I point out that we are on the verge, especially me, of hijacking this thread. I'm cool with doing that as people likely know, but if it's a problem care to start or go to another one that talks about death, the difference between the soul and spirit, etc.?
Shall I suggest this http://www.christianforums.net/f20/resurrections-34239/ thread?
I am so tempted to play "cut and paste", but I refuse to be that lazy considering who it is I am responding to is someone I see doing a bang up job of trying to relay scriptural truth. Much respect! Now before I go on to the disagreement may I point out that we are on the verge, especially me, of hijacking this thread. I'm cool with doing that as people likely know, but if it's a problem care to start or go to another one that talks about death, the difference between the soul and spirit, etc.?
Shall I suggest this http://www.christianforums.net/f20/resurrections-34239/ thread?
Last edited by a moderator:
L
Lehigh3
Guest
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
I want to "cut & paste" the last word on this thread!
I want to "cut & paste" the last word on this thread!
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
- Dec 10, 2010
- 1,369
- 19
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
Shall we continue here http://www.christianforums.net/f17/lets-talk-about-heaven-33387/index9.html#post539256?
Shall we continue here http://www.christianforums.net/f17/lets-talk-about-heaven-33387/index9.html#post539256?
L
Lehigh3
Guest
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
Well, we could do that too. But do you understand the fulfilled prophecy in the Bible about the New Jerusalem that I explained - how "the no more tears" in Rev.21 does not apply to heaven anyway- but to Israel? And death & Hades has already been done away with?
Now I will address your heaven thread.
Well, we could do that too. But do you understand the fulfilled prophecy in the Bible about the New Jerusalem that I explained - how "the no more tears" in Rev.21 does not apply to heaven anyway- but to Israel? And death & Hades has already been done away with?
Now I will address your heaven thread.
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
Sometimes truth helps. Rev 7:9 I beheld a great miltitude which no man could number of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues before the throne and before the Lamb...they shall hunger no more neither thirst any more for the Lamb that is in the midst of the throne shall feed them and shall lead them unto living fountains of water and GOD SHALL WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS FROM THEIR EYES. As one can easily read,the wiping away of tears is for the CHURCH.
L
Lehigh3
Guest
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
Ah, there you go- a heavenly picture of those in Christ who washed their robes & came out of the great tribulation. Even though these are saints from the 1st century- it implies the fate of all believers.
And no, the 12 tribes in the reference to Israel in Rev.21 are the still living-on the new earth-& is not the same picture as those in heaven in Rev.7. The 12 tribes were mentioned separately anyway in Rev.7.
Heaven wouldn't be heaven if there were tears there either.
And there are those "waters" again!
Ah, there you go- a heavenly picture of those in Christ who washed their robes & came out of the great tribulation. Even though these are saints from the 1st century- it implies the fate of all believers.
And no, the 12 tribes in the reference to Israel in Rev.21 are the still living-on the new earth-& is not the same picture as those in heaven in Rev.7. The 12 tribes were mentioned separately anyway in Rev.7.
Heaven wouldn't be heaven if there were tears there either.
And there are those "waters" again!
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
The saints from the first century were on the earth alive when John saw his vision of the church in heaven,according to you John was both alive on the earth and in heaven at the same time...
n2thelight
Member
- Jun 27, 2007
- 2,534
- 33
Re: Questions for the Preterists/Fullfilled Prophecy people here (Stormcrow, Hitch et
So what about Communion,do you all still partake of it?
I Corinthians 11:26 "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till He come.""
I would think not,since He has come already,is this correct?
So what about Communion,do you all still partake of it?
I Corinthians 11:26 "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till He come.""
I would think not,since He has come already,is this correct?