Pretrib Teachings Damaging to Our Very Soul - Part 1

[for_his_glory]

I believe asleep means rest...
We rest in Jesus, He is Our rest, as the Sabbath rest.
Heb.4:5

In 1 Thess.4:14
Those who sleeps IN JESUS, will GOD BRING WITH HIM...
My belief then is they are already there.

Mark 13:27
Then shall He send His angels, and shall gather His Elect..from the UTTERMOST Part OF THE EARTH to the UTTERMOST Part of HEAVEN....

According to the full context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 asleep means those who are in the grave like that of John 5:28, 29. In a sense those who are asleep in the grave that have died in Christ are at rest from the principalities of this world.

In Mark 13:27 God is not speaking about the third heaven as that would contradict what is written in John 3:13. I believe the uttermost parts of heaven and earth just means the four corners like North, South, East and West like that in Matthew 24:31.

 

[JLB]

It is only our breath/spirit that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body dies and returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from,

Amen.

I was hoping that was what you meant.


Some teach “soul sleep”.


Just making sure.




JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe asleep means rest...
We rest in Jesus, He is Our rest, as the Sabbath rest.
Heb.4:5

In 1 Thess.4:14
Those who sleeps IN JESUS, will GOD BRING WITH HIM...
My belief then is they are already there.

Mark 13:27
Then shall He send His angels, and shall gather His Elect..from the UTTERMOST Part OF THE EARTH to the UTTERMOST Part of HEAVEN....

Amen.


Great points with great scriptures.


Those in Christ who die, are present with the Lord, not asleep in the grave.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Amen.

I was hoping that was what you meant.


Some teach “soul sleep”.


Just making sure.




JLB

We know soul sleep is a very deceptive teaching, but others can look that up for themselves as we need not discuss it in this thread.

 

[for_his_glory]

We are immaterial souls joined to a physical body created by God from the dust of the ground. God breathed His breath/spirit into our nostrils that made this body a living soul. We are made up of three parts being spirit, soul and body that are joined together.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The body is physical with five senses being sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch that connects with the world.

The soul is the part of the human being that will live on in eternity and with our soul, not our body, is the part of us that is to love God.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

In those two verses it speaks about our soul as being in relationship with God and not this fleshly body. It's our soul and spirit that needs regeneration by God's Spirit.

The life we have here on earth is temporal as our physical bodies will die and return to the dust and be remembered no more.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The life and the blood is in Jesus who gives our soul eternal life with the Father by that of the blood sacrifice through God's grace that we are made righteous by the righteousness of God. God is not going to reform our physical bodies that have returned to dust, but will raise us from the grave in new glorified bodies that we know not what we will look like.

 

[Edward]

Please consider that the rapture and resurrection occur at His coming, in which all His people are gathered together, who are in heaven (dead in Christ), as well as those who alive and remain on earth.

(Bear in mind that I have not studied this since I posted last, been busy...)

But, let me ask you...are you essentially saying here that, there really wont be a rapture (in the traditional sense) and we only have His coming to look forward to?? Because if so, that raises immediate questions to me about a couple other scriptures...I just want to be clear.

 

[JLB]

(Bear in mind that I have not studied this since I posted last, been busy...)

But, let me ask you...are you essentially saying here that, there really wont be a rapture (in the traditional sense) and we only have His coming to look forward to?? Because if so, that raises immediate questions to me about a couple other scriptures...I just want to be clear.

Not at all.


I’m saying the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


The rapture is basically a resurrection for people who are alive.



The Lord gathers together His people, both the living (rapture) and dead (resurrection) at His coming.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Not at all.


I’m saying the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


The rapture is basically a resurrection for people who are alive.



The Lord gathers together His people, both the living (rapture) and dead (resurrection) at His coming.



JLB

This is why I never use the word rapture, which again is not found in the scriptures. Using both rapture and resurrection together as what you said here is can be very confusing to others. Whether dead in Christ or alive in Christ it is all who are in Christ that will be caught up to Him in the air on the last day when He returns. It's just that those who are in their graves have to be raised first then gathered to those who are alive as we are then changed given new glorified bodies like that of Jesus in His glorified body, but yet we do not know what that will look like.

Pertaining to all who are in the grave:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Pertaining to all who are alive at His coming:
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[JLB]

Whether dead in Christ or alive in Christ it is all who are in Christ that will be caught up to Him in the air on the last day when He returns.

Amen.


Like I said, I use the word Rapture when discussing this topic with those who do, so as to not distract from the discussion.

It’s a common phrase too mean those who are alive being caught up with the dead in Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

This is why I never use the word rapture, which again is not found in the scriptures. Using both rapture and resurrection together as what you said here is can be very confusing to others. Whether dead in Christ or alive in Christ it is all who are in Christ that will be caught up to Him in the air on the last day when He returns. It's just that those who are in their graves have to be raised first then gathered to those who are alive as we are then changed given new glorified bodies like that of Jesus in His glorified body, but yet we do not know what that will look like.

Pertaining to all who are in the grave:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Pertaining to all who are alive at His coming:
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Amen.


On the last Day, at His coming.


Three main things happen on that Day, at His coming.

• The Resurrection
• The catching up of those who are alive and remain
• The destruction of the antichrist and the wicked

JLB

 

[dianegcook]

According to the full context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 asleep means those who are in the grave like that of John 5:28, 29. In a sense those who are asleep in the grave that have died in Christ are at rest from the principalities of this world.

In Mark 13:27 God is not speaking about the third heaven as that would contradict what is written in John 3:13. I believe the uttermost parts of heaven and earth just means the four corners like North, South, East and West like that in Matthew 24:31.

Wouldn't that be also those whom don't believe in Christ?
Resurrection can mean different things.
There are dead men walking now, spiritually.
A mortal soul must put on immortality, which is through Christ.
I have been resurrected from the dead, spiritually.

As in Rev.20:5,6
But the rest of the dead, spiritually, lived not again until the 1000 years are finished.
They have not put on immortality.
They will have a chance. Second resurrection.

Another thing,
Ecc.12:7
The Spirit shall RETURN unto God who gave it.

Thus, your spirit came from God, which descended from God.
Thus, we were with God before.

Thus, absent from the body, present with the Lord.
One side of the gulf or the other.

In Rev.6:9-11
Saw the souls of them that were slain, for the word of God, wanting vengeance.
They were given white robes...
Did they have to wait for a resurrection?
They have ascended.

 

[for_his_glory]

dianegcook

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection of the dead.

In Rev 20:5 the word "spiritually" is not in that verse.

Satan is bound for a thousand years as he can no longer deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years are fulfilled. In John's vision he sees thrones and those who sat upon them were those who were beheaded for their witness and testimony of Christ as they did not take the mark of the beast, Rev 13:11-18. They died a martyr's death and their souls now joined with those souls who also died a martyr's death and seen of John’s vision waiting under the altar to be avenged, Rev 6:9-11.

Now the time of fulfillment will have come as judgment on those who have been persecuted to death for their witness of Christ and all are now avenged for the blood they spilled for their witness and testimony for the sake of Christ and not only those who were persecuted to death, but all the saints of God from the beginning of time and those who are still alive at the coming of Christ are all a part of the first resurrection being the first fruits of His creatures, Daniel 12:1-4; John 6:40; John 5:28, 29; James 1:8; Romans 8:23.

As I see it when Christ returns on the last day everything will happen very quickly as it is God's timing and not ours. All will be raised from their graves as then the sheep will be separated from the goats, Satan is cast into the lake of fire and then the Great White Throne judgement comes as all the books are opened.

To me I do not see the thousand years being literal after Satan is bound even though a thousand is written, which I believe is symbolic or figurative number like that of Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8. What else is to take place within a literal thousand years that will need to be fulfilled as the only thing left is for Satan to be loosed for a time as he gathers all nations for the final battle against the saints, but his army will be consumed by fire that God sends down from heaven and then Satan cast into the lake of fire. Why would God wait a thousand years for His final judgment? What else could possibly take place during a thousand years before God ushers down the New Jerusalem?

 

[for_his_glory]

Amen.


Like I said, I use the word Rapture when discussing this topic with those who do, so as to not distract from the discussion.

It’s a common phrase too mean those who are alive being caught up with the dead in Christ.



JLB

This is my take on using words that are not found or even associated with the scriptures.

There are many common phrases or words used by others, but yet not found in the scriptures, but only taught by man's doctrinal theories. If we show others that the word rapture is not found in scripture nor the false teachings that were never taught before the 1800's and certainly not taught by Jesus, then maybe their eyes will be opened to that which is already written.

 

[Anto9us2]

HARPADZO is the actual biblical word in Greek for CAUGHT UP.

Sometimes it was necessary to use words not in the Bible, like homoousia in Nicene Creed.

Hypostasis is a biblical word.

But how RAPTURE got used, it was Latin RAPERE that was morphed into RAPTURE.

CATCHING UP is better to use

 

[JLB]

This is my take on using words that are not found or even associated with the scriptures.

There are many common phrases or words used by others, but yet not found in the scriptures, but only taught by man's doctrinal theories. If we show others that the word rapture is not found in scripture nor the false teachings that were never taught before the 1800's and certainly not taught by Jesus, then maybe their eyes will be opened to that which is already written.

The word Rapture is not found in the Bible; Agreed.

The concept of those in Christ, who are alive and remain, being
“Caught Up” bodily with the resurrected ones is.


IOW the doctrine of the rapture is a biblical concept and not a false teaching.


What is a false teaching is the doctrine of a Pre-tribulation Rapture.


Those in Christ who are alive and remain until the coming od the Lord will be “caught up” together with those who were resurrected.


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


This is also called the “gathering”.


Jesus gathers His Church together at the end of the age, which includes those in heaven (the dead in Christ) as well as those on earth (those who are alive and remain).


And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17




JLB

 

[JLB]

This is my take on using words that are not found or even associated with the scriptures.

I get it.


I feel the same way about the word Trinity.

This can and is misunderstood by many.


The biblical word is Godhead.



JLB

 

[dianegcook]

dianegcook

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:
14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection of the dead.

In Rev 20:5 the word "spiritually" is not in that verse.

Satan is bound for a thousand years as he can no longer deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years are fulfilled. In John's vision he sees thrones and those who sat upon them were those who were beheaded for their witness and testimony of Christ as they did not take the mark of the beast, Rev 13:11-18. They died a martyr's death and their souls now joined with those souls who also died a martyr's death and seen of John’s vision waiting under the altar to be avenged, Rev 6:9-11.

Now the time of fulfillment will have come as judgment on those who have been persecuted to death for their witness of Christ and all are now avenged for the blood they spilled for their witness and testimony for the sake of Christ and not only those who were persecuted to death, but all the saints of God from the beginning of time and those who are still alive at the coming of Christ are all a part of the first resurrection being the first fruits of His creatures, Daniel 12:1-4; John 6:40; John 5:28, 29; James 1:8; Romans 8:23.

As I see it when Christ returns on the last day everything will happen very quickly as it is God's timing and not ours. All will be raised from their graves as then the sheep will be separated from the goats, Satan is cast into the lake of fire and then the Great White Throne judgement comes as all the books are opened.

To me I do not see the thousand years being literal after Satan is bound even though a thousand is written, which I believe is symbolic or figurative number like that of Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8. What else is to take place within a literal thousand years that will need to be fulfilled as the only thing left is for Satan to be loosed for a time as he gathers all nations for the final battle against the saints, but his army will be consumed by fire that God sends down from heaven and then Satan cast into the lake of fire. Why would God wait a thousand years for His final judgment? What else could possibly take place during a thousand years before God ushers down the New Jerusalem?

Then that is where we differ.
Rev.20:5,6
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 year reign...
This is the FIRST RESURRECTION...

Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION...but they shall be priests of God and of His Christ.

When Christ returns we all will be in Spiritual bodies, the good, bad and ugly.
As we see in 2Peter 3:10...

Who do we judge, or teach, preach?

Ezek.44:23-25 the millennium reign..
They the Zadok, Elect..
They shall teach My people the difference between the Holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean...
In controversy they shall stand in judgment, judge it according to My judgment....

Thus they teach the mortal souls..remember we all are in the spiritual.
We teach the ones that may have never heard of the truth..
God is fair and just..
The ones that hath part in the first resurrection have already put on immortality.
Thus, after the 1000 year reign they, with mortal souls, will be tested when Satan is loosed.
They must put on immortal souls.

The 1000 year reign might be just a day, THE DAY OF THE LORD.
2Peter 3:8

 

[for_his_glory]

I get it.


I feel the same way about the word Trinity.

This can and is misunderstood by many.


The biblical word is Godhead.



JLB

Well, I'm not going to argue about using the word rapture. When others hear the word rapture it is always related to pretrib which I will always teach against this false teaching. It was never heard of or taught before the 1800's as it is only a man's theory and not verified by the scriptures.

 

[for_his_glory]

Then that is where we differ.
Rev.20:5,6
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 year reign...
This is the FIRST RESURRECTION...

Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION...but they shall be priests of God and of His Christ.

When Christ returns we all will be in Spiritual bodies, the good, bad and ugly.
As we see in 2Peter 3:10...

Who do we judge, or teach, preach?

Ezek.44:23-25 the millennium reign..
They the Zadok, Elect..
They shall teach My people the difference between the Holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean...
In controversy they shall stand in judgment, judge it according to My judgment....

Thus they teach the mortal souls..remember we all are in the spiritual.
We teach the ones that may have never heard of the truth..
God is fair and just..
The ones that hath part in the first resurrection have already put on immortality.
Thus, after the 1000 year reign they, with mortal souls, will be tested when Satan is loosed.
They must put on immortal souls.

The 1000 year reign might be just a day, THE DAY OF THE LORD.
2Peter 3:8

2 Peter 3:10 says nothing about being in Spiritual bodies, but does say that Jesus will come as a thief in the night which is also referenced in Matthew 24:42-44; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5; Rev 16:15.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 both teach that it is only those who are in Christ, asleep in the grave and those alive at His coming will be changed in an instant and caught up to Him on the last day (emphasis on the last day).

The dead in Christ will be raised first and joined with those who are alive at His coming as they are given new glorified bodies then caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. This is done before He plants His feet on the Mt of Olives. The unrighteous dead who are not Christ own are raised at the same time on the last day, John 5:28, 29, but are reserved until the day of judgement, John 5:28, 29; 2 Peter 2:9; Rev 20:11-15.

Being that it is all done on the last day when Christ returns there is only one resurrection of the dead, both the righteous and the unrighteous, as the righteous are caught up to Jesus and the unrighteous are raised also, but reserved kinda like being thrown in prison for a short time until the day of judgement (Great White Throne) which also takes place on the last day. We try to put everything in our own timing, but it is all God's timing which is different then ours as when He says last day that means there are no more days left.

Again, IMO 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture other than Rev 20 does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[for_his_glory]

I didn't go back to check, but I might have already posted this, but will post it again.

We do not enter the Millennial Kingdom here on earth in our natural bodies, but in new glorified bodies, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. When Christ returns in the air we are then caught up to meet Him in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord as He has made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth as we rule with Him over the nations as His enemies have become His footstool, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; Rev 5:10; Psalms 110:1-4; Hebrews 10:12, 13.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 19:11-21 Jesus descends down from heaven with His army of the host of heaven as He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His own to Him. He will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire, Rev 19:15, 16. The remnant in Rev 19:21 are the kings (Rulers of every nation) on the earth and their armies that followed after the beast and his false prophet that go out to the battle of Armageddon as this army is sent out to kill Christ when they see Him (and the saints with Him) return and plants His feet on the mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:1-4.

The remnant, like the beast and false prophet, will be slain by the very words Jesus speaks of their demise and at that time Satan will be chained and bound so he can not interfere with those ungodly that are still alive on earth that become the footstool of Christ. Then the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and He shall reign for ever and ever and the saints will then begin to rule over the nations here on earth, Rev 11:15; 5:10; 20:1-3; Matthew 5:5.

Rev 20:7-10 Those that have rejected Christ that still remain on earth after the beast, false prophet and all the kings/rulers from every nation are destroyed are those who are the numbering as the sand of the sea. These are the enemy of God that Satan uses to battle against the saints that are camped upon the breadth of the earth. Psalms 2:7-10; 110; Ezekiel 36; 37; Rev 20:7-9 the saints are camped not only in Jerusalem the beloved city of God, but also throughout the breadth of the earth. It's only the 144,000 generational Jews that believe in Christ that have returned to Jerusalem. After the 1000 years are fulfilled Satan is set loosed for a season and goes out to deceive the nations as he gathers the enemies of Christ to battle against the saints as the numbering of unbelievers is like the sand of the sea. As the enemy surrounds the camp of the saints God sends fire down from heaven and destroys the enemy and Satan is cast onto the lake of fire.

John 5:28, 29; Rev 20:11-15, now comes the Great White throne judgment as the books are opened with one of them being the Lamb's book of life where all the saints of God have their names written as they have part of the first resurrection of eternal life on such the second death hath no power, Rev 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:54-57. The other book is opened being the book of damnation where the enemies of God that were killed while trying to destroy the camp of the saints are now joined with those enemies of Christ that were also raised from their graves and are reserved, 2 Peter 2:9, as now since they were condemned and judged will be cast into the lake of fire. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. While the saints are with Jesus the earth will be renewed and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven.

Side note: IMO 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture other than Rev 20 does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.