th1b.taylor
Member
You have missed the point entirely. We, the followers of God, believe and that is faith and faith is a gift of God. There is no "natural" logic to faith.
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
Proof of Trinity
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
A
Asyncritus
Guest
I absolutely deny all of these charges.
Perhaps calling down fire and brimstone on my head is better than this? Mr Taylor seems to be doing so!
th1b.taylor
Member
LOL!!! He is not, he and God are the majority!
This is a non-answer to the point. If we are to use this to support the Trinity, then it cannot mean more than three because God has revealed himself to be triune--not more than three, not less. You've dismissed the point without attempting to answer.
th1b.taylor
Member
No, this old man has no power except to warn, nothing more. My words can be misconstrued as personal attacks but this not true.
When our last big storm blew through here, the bridge over the creek floated from side to side with out traffic on it. I told any headed that way to turn around, to go there meant disaster. I has issued the same respect to you I gave to them. I wish the very best for your eternal life and will find no pleasure in any going to Hell.
If I did not warn you, it is directly akin to a personal attack because I will stand here a watch you dig your way into condemnation... I can't go there.
th1b.taylor
Member
Amen!
A
Asyncritus
Guest
True
I don't know about these other people, but I sympathise with them.
Have you ever read the Athanasian creed? If you have, you'll probably understand why truckloads of people reject the trinity. It is the most confused and confusing outpouring of theological misconceptions conceivable.
And it took 400 years to reach its full confusion potential. Why do you think that is so?
I wonder why!
Erm, where exactly did you read this?
This gets worse and worse.
Do you other guys agree with all this?
Yes. And the 40 or so secretaries say with one voice that God is One, and Jesus is His Son.
Why are you fighting this so vehemently?
th1b.taylor
Member
You mention, correctly that most people deny this truth, now there is logic! Jesus taught us the path is straight and the gate narrow and few that will find it.
Look around yourself, as humans count it, yes, you are in the majority. Problem? The majority, as men count, are not saved.
A
Asyncritus
Guest
Hey Free
I've been waiting for a long time for your promised solution to the GREAT PROBLEM.
Here it is again, in case you've forgotten it.
The GREAT PROBLEM
God cannot sin.
Jesus could.but didn't.
God cannot be tempted with evil.
Jesus was.
Therefore, however you cut it, Jesus could not be God.
If He was, then there was no conquest of sin since it was impossible for Him to sin in any case, and the sacrifice of Christ was no sacrifice at all.
As I see it, the trinity cannot account for, or explain away these very basic truths.
But I wait to hear.
I've been waiting for a long time for your promised solution to the GREAT PROBLEM.
Here it is again, in case you've forgotten it.
The GREAT PROBLEM
God cannot sin.
Jesus could.but didn't.
God cannot be tempted with evil.
Jesus was.
Therefore, however you cut it, Jesus could not be God.
If He was, then there was no conquest of sin since it was impossible for Him to sin in any case, and the sacrifice of Christ was no sacrifice at all.
As I see it, the trinity cannot account for, or explain away these very basic truths.
But I wait to hear.
I like your list.
Only God can be omnipotent,omnipresent and omniscient.No other being can be described with these attributes. God alone holds these titles.
Omnipotent
1) Father (1 Peter 1:5)~~5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2)Son (2 Cor. 12:9)~~ And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
3)Holy Spirit (Rom. 15:19)~~19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
omnipresent
1)Father (Jer. 23:24)~~
24 “Can a man hide himself in hiding places
So I do not see him?” declares the Lord.
“Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the Lord.
2)Christ (Matt. 18:20)~~20 “For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
3)Holy Spirit (Ps. 139:7)~~
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
Omniscient
1)Father (Jer. 17:10)~~
10 “I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the results of his deeds.
2)Son (Rev. 2:23)~~23 ‘And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
3)Holy Spirit (I Cor. 2:11)~~11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
Jesus(humanity) Christ(deity). 100% human and 100% deity. These two natures operate separately and are distinctive from each other.
Jesus, in His humanity could be tempted and was able to sin. He had to operate in 100% humanity when it came to his sacrifice for the sins of the human race.(that is why animals were not sufficient. A human has to pay the price for a human.
Kenosis comes from the Greek verb keno,w, kenoo: to empty, Phil.2:7, and refers to the manner in which Christ chose to restrict the use of His divine attributes during His humiliation.~~7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Humiliation is the term which refers to the action of Christ’s humanity by which He voluntarily agreed to submit Himself to the sufferings and limitations associated with His life on earth, including His death on the Cross,Phil.2:8.....8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Chopper
Member
A
Asyncritus
Guest
I think I'll leave this discussion here.
It's getting too heated and personal, and I don't want to give the moderators any hassle.
Free, I'm still waiting, and will look in from time to time to see if you have produced a response.
It's getting too heated and personal, and I don't want to give the moderators any hassle.
Free, I'm still waiting, and will look in from time to time to see if you have produced a response.
Gregg
Member
The Author of the Gospel of John records Jesus' declarations of Deity in three differing manners, through three distinct uses of the phrase 'I Am' - ego eimi in the original Greek text.
1. "I Am the One" signifying that Jesus is the Word and the Light sent from God. (Jn 4:26, 8:18)
2. "I Am" followed by or preceded by "that I Am," signifying that Jesus is the One who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, that He is the Israel's Deliverer worthy of faith and belief. (Jn 6:20, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58, 13:19, 18:5, 18:6, 18:8)
3. "I Am" followed by twelve descriptive names and titles. These 'I Am' phrases declare the Deity of Jesus Christ. (Jn 6:35, 6:48, 6:51, 8:12, 10:7, 10:9, 10:11, 10:14, 11:25, 14:6, 15:1, 15:5)
The 'I Am' phrases in John's Gospel are arranged by type and have relevance according to their order of appearance in the original text.
In regards to section 2. above, here is the order that type of "I Am" phrase appears in John's gospel:
Jn 6:20 I Am
Jn 8:24 that I Am
Jn 8:28 that I Am
Jn 8:58 I Am
Jn 13:19 that I Am
Jn 18:5 I Am
Jn 18:6 I Am
Jn 18:8 that I Am
Jesus is without a doubt the One whom Moses knew as "I Am that I Am."
Regarding the idea that "God cannot be tempted with evil," all that means is he has no inclination to actually act on the temptation, that any attempt to temp is pointless. As for whether or not Jesus could have sinned, take your pick:
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/temptations-of-christ
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/could-jesus-have-sinned/
It has been debated for a long time, so we won't come to any agreeable conclusion here. Suffice to say that regardless of what answer one chooses, it does not in any way whatsoever prove Jesus' deity to be false, as the above links show. Personally, I don't know, although I tend to lean toward Sproul's answer, but I'm quite content to hold these two answers in tension and feel that the question is unanswerable, a mystery. A prof of mine used to say, "When one attempts to split the mystery [of the Incarnation], heresy is just around the corner," and that the question we should be asking is, "Did Jesus feel the full force of evil?" To which we can answer "Yes."
What remains and what must be dealt with are these biblical facts:
1. Jesus is truly God.
2. Jesus is truly man.
Such arguments as you have given are, once again, merely attempts at pitting Scripture against Scripture, which we must avoid. There is absolutely no basis for choosing those arguments and Scriptures which prove the deity of Jesus over against those which speak of his humanity, as though he is only God, just as there is no absolutely no basis for choosing those arguments and Scriptures which prove his humanity over against those which speak of his humanity, as though he is only human (or a creature).
Exactly. It is worth a look at the context surrounding those passages, particularly those in John 8 and 18, and noticing what happens when he says "I am". I have issued a challenge in the past for anti-trinitarians to look at every time Jesus is called the "Son of God" and to report back on what they notice about the context. I don't think any have ever responded.
If I understand the Bible correctly, the Trinity is all through it. The problem comes not from scriptural revelation (especially in its fullest form) nor the inability of men to grasp the concept, but from simply accepting what the Bible plainly says.
God, for example, is not the name of a person but of a nature like human is to us.
Adam and Eve and Abel are human. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are God.
Adam and Eve and Abel are one (family / race). The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are one kind.
The only human family to exist at the time meant that the family of man was one.
The only individuals of the divine nature are one kind. One God. Three individuals. One God.
The word "God" applies to all three. One is no more and no less God than the other two.
The Bible indicates each is coexistent yet individual one from the other.
For example, only God the Word created all things in the beginning (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16, Isaiah 44:24, John 1:14 says the only thing the Father created was the body of the Son see also Hebrews 10:5 and Hebrews 1:5).
The Bible was written by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21).
Hebrews 1:2 states that Jesus was the one in the Godhead who made all things.
And though Isaiah 44:24 states twice the preincarnate Jesus created all things alone he was in the company of the Father (1 John 1:2) and the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2). Alone / by himself meant he acted alone. And the Isaiah 44:24 text also zeroes in on the one who became Christ in stating YHVH our Redeemer (since neither the Father nor the Spirit are our {kinsman} redeemer).
Without the Trinity doctrine (gleaned from the evidence of scripture) it would be impossible to make sense of any of this.
God, for example, is not the name of a person but of a nature like human is to us.
Adam and Eve and Abel are human. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are God.
Adam and Eve and Abel are one (family / race). The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are one kind.
The only human family to exist at the time meant that the family of man was one.
The only individuals of the divine nature are one kind. One God. Three individuals. One God.
The word "God" applies to all three. One is no more and no less God than the other two.
The Bible indicates each is coexistent yet individual one from the other.
For example, only God the Word created all things in the beginning (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:13-16, Isaiah 44:24, John 1:14 says the only thing the Father created was the body of the Son see also Hebrews 10:5 and Hebrews 1:5).
The Bible was written by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21).
Hebrews 1:2 states that Jesus was the one in the Godhead who made all things.
And though Isaiah 44:24 states twice the preincarnate Jesus created all things alone he was in the company of the Father (1 John 1:2) and the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2). Alone / by himself meant he acted alone. And the Isaiah 44:24 text also zeroes in on the one who became Christ in stating YHVH our Redeemer (since neither the Father nor the Spirit are our {kinsman} redeemer).
Without the Trinity doctrine (gleaned from the evidence of scripture) it would be impossible to make sense of any of this.
In addition...
All humanity are the creation (children) of God... the Word.
Only Jesus is the child of God the Father.
We are children of the Father by adoption (faith in Christ Jesus).
Romans 8:15-23 (KJV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
All humanity are the creation (children) of God... the Word.
Only Jesus is the child of God the Father.
We are children of the Father by adoption (faith in Christ Jesus).
Romans 8:15-23 (KJV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
I think the main point of contention between me and you is Jesus being identified as God in the context of always was and always was God rather then God in the context that Jesus is all that the Father is. I do not see or read that Jesus is the One true God on His own. I see a firstborn Son. A Son who was made heir and One the Father glorified. A Son who the Father was pleased to have all HIS fullness dwell IN. The Father speaks in terms of the Holy Spirit as HIS Spirit. The Holy Spirit was sent from the Father in Jesus's name hence in us the Spirit represents the mind and will of Jesus. Jesus in His own as the Father in Him. There is One Spirit, One Lord (Jesus), One God. (Father) I assume when one prays they are either directing their thoughts to Jesus or the Father not the Holy Spirit. In fact the Holy Spirit helps us and intercedes for us according to the will of the mind of the Spirit. Since God is Spirit and the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is His to give and take I am not so sure I see the HS as a separate distinct person from the Father as I do see the Son as separate (Jesus as the Son has His own spirit, own mind and own will as I read in the NT)
It is ONE God in all. There is only One Holy Spirit.
Paul expressed it better then any creed.
"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
To me it will always be thus.
Is Jesus God?
He never dies. -He lives forever by the living Father.
Yes, He is all that the Father is. -The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him.
No, He has always been the Son. -The firstborn of all creation.
Randy